What do people think?

[extreme-4x4]

daved ......groups .... ??? like who??? need ideas !


come on people what you recon its not just me and daved here... input please.

 

[Terranosaurus]

Its a good idea but you need to get the council and Landowners on board first - without that you'll be stuffed. If you manage that then I'm sure GLASS through me and CRAG through OCELOT can help with manpower etc. GLASS also have Public Liability Insurance in place for these events, which the council are bound to insist on (I assume CRAG do too), they also already have the necessary risk assessments etc (again the council will insist) together.

There will be mega hoops to jump through but go for it. For instance, they will need to be the correct indigenous tree type and the correct stone type for any repairs etc - they don't make it easy.

 

[makeitfit]

I'm involved with "Coast Care".
We pick up rubbish left by the plebs who cant be arsed to take their own to the effing bin 5 meters from their fat arses, twonks
OOPS came over all mr angry
Anyway up Coast Care is also part of some Country side clean up caper too. Now I'm seeing our local rep this Tuesday re our grant, so I will quiz him on "cleaning " up the lanes. As I understand it with the beaches we "Adopt" one or two and keep it clean. For our trouble we can get a grant to help with rubber gloves(not golf ones)etc. So it may be possible to do the same with a lane:augie
I'll report back in a couple of days

 

[Deleted account DD]

Have a think about your plans specifics. What you are actually doing.

Set up a working group or steering group, nothing too formal but set your aims and objectives ,a realistic time line and responsibilities. Not waffley ideas but hard and fast promises who is going to arrange or do what.

Your group would include the relevant authorities, landowners, police, environment groups, media. Dont miss out any groups that have an interest in the area (legit that is :augie ) if you do they'll pop up and bite you on the bum. Examples could include the ramblers who I think its fair to say sometimes clash directly. Youve got a legit cause put it to them.

The list is long and you'll end up deciding cut off points rather than running out of candidtes.

Sponsors perhaps to provide things to plant or a local contractor willing to help out with a jcb.

That's once you've spoken with the landowners or the local authority and see if they want to work with you. There's always the projects such as "community payback" who would probably help.

Scouts, Army cadets TA Royal Engineers of youve got a local one are always looking for somewhere to practice their skills.

Thats off the top of my head in a couple of minutes as soon as I've posted it'll start churning through my bonce :doh

 

[Deleted account DD]

If you manage that then I'm sure GLASS through me and CRAG through OCELOT can help with manpower etc. GLASS also have Public Liability Insurance in place for these events, which the council are bound to insist on (I assume CRAG do too), they also already have the necessary risk assessments etc (again the council will insist) together.

I would suggest you need to go far broader than just GLASS & CRAG. Using them alone could bring the perception of "oh yeah its those 4x4's again" back in from uninvited or uninvolved groups. Hence you need to invite and record either their participation or rejection to remain bomb proof.

As far as Insurance goes, seeing as you've mentioned it, that would be an agenda item for the first meeting. If its an ongoing program or project it will often fall into a different risk category to a single pre planned event. Members of your planning group will be able to advise of their cover and the limitations of it. The answers are not always bad.

If you were running a full blown event this would be a responsibility of a SAG (safety advisory group). The local authority should be able to help you on that one its something they usually take on routinely . Hence one reason for ensuring they're on board.

Other groups will have to undertake their own risk assesments and put control measures in place. It is not that difficult especially when theres a multi disciplined crowd involved.

It is a massive undertaking but with potential for a superb result.

:thumb2

 

[extreme-4x4]

trouble is powys council are the owners of the sarn thats closed (alegedly)

but strata is camarthen council
fixing strata would help our case when strata is over used as it will be now. so we might stop that getting closed

but its powys we need to either put pressure on or befriend to get the sarn open.

or do we just go direct to powys council first and offer help to make the sarn helen good first


my only trouble is , as you know im an aggravating git, and i still do the sarn despite the warnings and i keep records of when etc as do the other locals now
i believe this will come in handy eventually, but what are my chances of achieving a s59 status if im only driving it safely and respectfully....

also how would this effect my participation in an event like this. making good strata florida

 

[extreme-4x4]

I would suggest you need to go far broader than just GLASS & CRAG. Using them alone could bring the perception of "oh yeah its those 4x4's again" back in from uninvited or uninvolved groups. Hence you need to invite and record either their participation or rejection to remain bomb proof.

As far as Insurance goes, seeing as you've mentioned it, that would be an agenda item for the first meeting. If its an ongoing program or project it will often fall into a different risk category to a single pre planned event. Members of your planning group will be able to advise of their cover and the limitations of it. The answers are not always bad.

If you were running a full blown event this would be a responsibility of a SAG (safety advisory group). The local authority should be able to help you on that one its something they usually take on routinely . Hence one reason for ensuring they're on board.

Other groups will have to undertake their own risk assesments and put control measures in place. It is not that difficult especially when theres a multi disciplined crowd involved.

It is a massive undertaking but with potential for a superb result.

:thumb2

but dont we want to make the point its the 4x4 and bikes communities who want to do something to repair them unlike the walkers and cyclists..who dont

after all its us who gets shut out

 

[Deleted account DD]

but dont we want to make the point its the 4x4 and bikes communities who want to do something to repair them unlike the walkers and cyclists..who dont

after all its us who gets shut out

You do, but anyone you exclude will bite you on the bum later. The whole point of the 4x4 community being seen as nice guys is that YOUR GROUP are not insular. If they want to be thats their problem whereas you are seen as wanting to involve anyone who has an interest in that area and perfectly willing to live in harmony.

You need a clever chair for the group who can errr.........steer it

Chances are a lot of others wont play but record that.

Then when its all done and nice, trees for tree huggers, paths for walkers and for you most importantly routes for Nissans :augie you are all pretty much level in the good guy stakes but YOU will be at the top of the bunch with great credibility because if theyre all there you organised it, if theyve bombed out you organised it and did it :thumb2

 

[Deleted account DD]

trouble is powys council are the owners of the sarn thats closed (alegedly)

but strata is camarthen council
fixing strata would help our case when strata is over used as it will be now. so we might stop that getting closed

but its powys we need to either put pressure on or befriend to get the sarn open.

or do we just go direct to powys council first and offer help to make the sarn helen good first

I can see where youre coming from but if you talk to them both you may be able to sort out some potential answers.

Trust me, people open up when theyre (and I hate the term) "kept in the loop"

 

[ocelot]

Interesting...................

I like the idea of broadening the scope of inclusion, CRAG's pretty much intra-agency/user in that we have members who are horse riders, cyclists, ramblers 4x4 and bikes, as well as climbers, hang glider pilots etc.

It would be a good idea to get the Welsh Assembly involved, who is the local AM and the AM's for the areas concerned. They need public support, and support needs visibility, if we can make this a visibly positive thing then I guarantee that some politician or other will come scurrying along.

The working group is a definate starter, personally, I'd announce a public meeting, probably in Rhyader, invite all the people and groups you'd think could or should be involved.
We'd need a strong agenda, a proposal, with a complete plan of action, project management with timeline's etc.

To do that, we'd need to survey the right of way, not necessarily with theodolites but certainly, GPS, camera, OS map to note any problems with the lane, and suggest solutions to each point with indicated costs in terms of both manpower, machinery and materials.

So in order

1/ survey
2/ decide what needs to happen, should happen, could happen
3/ collate into a proposal which can be presented easily taking legal advice on how and if the council can be made to observe their responsibilities.
4/ hold a public meeting, inviting all concerned taking account of everything DAVED has said. Some great points there.
5/ take the matter forward as a discussion and working group with defined objectives and timelines.
6/ be prepared for this to take time and to also have stamina in keeping the ball rolling. If we're seen to be inclusive, thought provoking and pro-active with good planning etc then we have a good chance.

What's also required here is the coming together of all of the various MPV groups to take part in this.
I will commit CRAG to supporting this, we already have a history with Mark Stafford-Tolly (geezer in charge of highways I think) and although they renaged on the Sarn, we could collectively give them another opportunity to sort the lane out.

I'm away to the outer hebrides today so won't be on line for a bit.

Have fun and play nicely....................

Thank you all and I mean Thank You ALL for your comments, commitment and willingness to put yourselves out for the good of not only our community but also those of other interests............

Regards

Dave

 

[Terranosaurus]

As its kinda relevant (can always be moved elsewhere if peole prefere)

From the GLASS forum

All,

For those who were not involved, another police sting operation was undertaken yesterday at Strata Florida consisting of various local groups including 2 local representatives from GLASS, along with Crag & Dyfed-Powys Police.

Two small teams headed along Strata from both north and south directions accompanied by a PC, again mainly to educate, and where required enforce or potentially prosecute & issue notices to any illegal users of this section.

Overall a much more productive day than the previous sting operation, although I personally could not make this one, so thanks to Ed and Fred for standing in, and all the others who assisted on the day (and another hot one it was from what I gather!).

I believe in all, 2 section 59's were issued to Land Rover drivers for driving down the river, and 2 general offences to bikers for no license, tax, insurance or other legalaties. Here's to the next one, I shall be there with rulebook in hand!

 

[Adz]

Before i write anything i'll just say:-

" I hope & dont mean to affend anyone & oppoligise for my ignorence as i'm not local to the lanes & am new but eager to green laning "

Reading through this & other simlar threads,it seems like a compromise is the only way forward.
Writtern protest/partition would be better i think if it was ever to go to court as other forms of protest would go against 4x4'ers...
I still think its the illeagel users i.e. so called "joy riders" & criminals that rouine it for other wheeled users...
I think clearer sign posting is needed i.e. "closed" or "open" / "access only".?
But think the councils have alot to answer for...
After just 2 days with Colin & Pete who took me on the LEAGEL routes & showed me some eledged "closed" parts,it made no sense.?
All we "as in genuine 4x4 owners" wanna do is drive the route NOT wreck it or make new ones destroying the countyside.?

I'd also be happy to come down & repair tracks,plant trees etc.! & i live 300 miles away...

Also...
These tickets that they issue...
Are they like "Asbos".? or "7 Day Wonders".?
Or something different.?

 

[extreme-4x4]

thanks terra..... i can see the point to this and its very enlightening and informative, i can see the point to these sting operations and taking coppers to enforce things.... i really can

but on the other hand i can see how and why outsiders non glass crag people like me and thousands of others might feel excluded shut out and picked on

i know we could argue till the cows come home about off piste and not being on the right track. really we could and have done many times before, but strata florida really is not as clear to follow as other routes, like the sarn for example. i mean if you was off piste on the sarn you would have to be pretty stupid, whereas strata its just not clear in places

thats why paul suggested the tree planting exercise to clearly mark out the route.... so no errors cant be made in the future.
obvoiusly trees would be the best option as they are green and good for the enviroment but they would also be there for long term and create dainage and support the track with roots etc.

i think the idea of a large meeting / rally type of thing to bring others / outsiders into the big picture... try to educate rather than punnish, bring them into it so they can help preserve our lanes and feel part of something

i know you will get the rebel ones. but they are the ones the ones who are there to do the pay and play thing and wreck it, but if its clearly marked out prossecution would be more straight forward... not just s59 actual criminal damage

if we could get enough people on side to join for a weekend those that take part could get invited to a years free membership to glass or crag or both, if they do a weekends repair work

i think the project is as much about making sure we dont loose the lanes, but showing the authorities there is a strong group or membership and way of thinking. showing we want to include everyone and create a safe enviroment for everyone .

this year it is crucial we get everyone on side and into a good way of thinking, excluding people is not the way we need everyone working for the same goal

its not just the sarn or strata . its every lane in every county
we only started on this area because its what we know.
but if we can pull it off it could be what is needed to protect the lanes

 

[extreme-4x4]

you could if everyone was onside and members of a big operation , you could even have a lanes register.

for example,
when you have driven a lane you can sign the online register with times dates pics if you like, condition of the lane

with this info you could say who you saw if they were being naughty, report any damage so it can be repaired before it get turned into a new play mud bath

also councils couldn't say no one uses it because you would have the register already done

unlike having to find people ask for evidence like some bloke did on the sarn earlier in the year in some magazine

 

[Deleted account DD]

That wasn't a "sting" that was a routine patrol and a step in the right direction. Highly commendable but just a drop in the ocean.

Its been proved many times over that enforcement activities alone either displace offences or send them underground. (dont get me wrong though any enforcement is better than none)

Theres a principle that the home office decreed some time ago police services should use and its called problem orientated policing.

It recognises that however well intentioned individual activities are a structured coordinated mutli agency approach will reap better rewards.

The whole police service is also supposed to be intelligence led, that is following the national intelligence model. With reference to the problem discussed on here, is intellignce being followed up? are home visits being made to the identified suspects even though they werent caught in the act? is the local ANPR crew maintaining a 4x4 database?


Interesting stuff

 

[lacroupade]

Nice to see a good debate.

Been busy with work but Colin was right, my suggestion was to look at tree planting, both as a general environmental thing and, where appropriate, to help define routes.

I'd gone a bit further and suggested that individuals could donate trees for this purpose....I recently planted 120 trees in a corner of my plot, mainly for future firewood supplies as its carbon neutral (oh and did I mention FREE?), mostly ash but a few others as well (Scots Pine etc..) and I was paying about £1.50 for a 1.5 metre sapling, so 10 trees for £15.

We'd need to check they were native trees (ash definitely is in Wales, its a bloody weed here!) and did the planting with the right advice from the council's environmental/ecology people, but that all adds to the PR doesn't it.

One question re above posts though and thats about the S59s - and this is only about understanding the process better. I fully understand the tax/insurance ones but I'm struggling with the ones referring to Landys 'driving in the river'. Yes its ecologically unfriendly but whats the technical offence being committed here and, more to the point, who owns that riverbed (the water will be the EAs)?

As I say, don't get uppity as I'm NOT challenging this, I just want to better understand how it works.:thumbs

 

[Deleted account DD]

Driving down a riverbed is straight away the offence of driving other than on the road :thumb2

(or words to that effect :doh )

and thats before anything else comes into consideration.

 

[lacroupade]

Driving down a riverbed is straight away the offence of driving other than on the road :thumb2

(or words to that effect :doh )

and thats before anything else comes into consideration.

I get that Dave but then surely it comes down to who's river it is?

I mean if somebody drove down MY river that can't be a S59 can it surely, its just common trespass?

What is the 15-metre rule (I thinks thats what it is) supposed to apply to, is it where all the land is owned by the local authority/highways?

 

[lacroupade]

I get that Dave but then surely it comes down to who's river it is?

I mean if somebody drove down MY river that can't be a S59 can it surely, its just common trespass?

What is the 15-metre rule (I thinks thats what it is) supposed to apply to, is it where all the land is owned by the local authority/highways?

Might have answered my own question - this extract is from a useful pdf file and in the case if Strata I suspect its likely that the bit about implied or actual permission for the public to access is the key. If its the bit of river I think it is, it lies within the general fenced off area that the Strata ROW sits on and although publicly accessible because of that (by walkers, fishermen etc..), its clearly not part of the ROW, so the 15metre rule (or whatever it is) would apply....?

 

[extreme-4x4]

i think crucially its the lane itself we need to concentrate on. not the potential trespass laws or 15 metre rule...

to get pouncils on side its the lane itself only..... what you do outside this proposal or in your own time if you like , is up to you and at your own risk. and something for you to argue with the copper when or if you get told off....


OMG ive turned into a do gooder .....

no seriously i do the sarn still ok i could get into trouble but if everyone stops using it, even if its closed or not if they do ever get a court case over it the council can just say well only a hand full of people have used it recently so its not worth the expence

thats the game i recon powys are playing to be honest... well i wont let them have that excuse

anyway for the sake of this thread it should only be legal use of the lane and only the lane