Sarn Helen

[lacroupade]

Update - firstly, make sure you read the URGENT thread and write in with your objections.

But what I've gleaned from the paperwork that Detective Extreme handed me tonight is that, as I suspected all along, the Sarn has never been closed except under the original TRO that covered Dec-Mch each year.

I am looking at the minutes of the Environment and Highways Cabinet Board of 17th July and two quotes in particular:

1. On 10th February 1999 the Transportation, Engineering and Property Board resolved that "Sarn Helen be closed to public vehicular traffic for a period of eighteen months and that the Seasonal Prohibition of Driving Order be amended to allow the road to be used by public vehicular traffic only during the months of June, July and August".

..but...

2. However, there is no record of the Authority having actually sealed any Traffic Regulation Order so as to give effect to the decision made by the Authority. The only TRO currently in force therefore is the order made on 22nd August 1991 that closes Sarn Helen from Dec 1st to March 31st every year.

It would appear that Walters have been impeding the ROW using boulders trees and illegal signage, but that the route has been open for nine months of the year throughout the last eighteen years!

I think massive thanks are due to Colin for his persistence and getting hold of this information.:clap:clap:clap

 

[Adz]

Nice one Paul,

It'll be good to give them some mass individual objections...........

point out the economic losses as well..................... plus I want to drive that lane later on this year and I'll be damned if I let some irresponsible business ruin it for any of us.

My sigy below :augie :naughty :sly :thumbs

 

[extreme-4x4]

paul have you tried telephoning that chris williams or anyone from rowan
i recon your just the man they need as a speeker for any up coming meetings

 

[lacroupade]

paul have you tried telephoning that chris williams or anyone from rowan
i recon your just the man they need as a speeker for any up coming meetings

copied him on my mail....offered to help any way I can.

Only just seeing what a bunch of arses Walters have been on this....

 

[extreme-4x4]

when i spoke to them yesterday they also want to chase acconts info and everything from the council and any dealings with walters....

ring them you will get loads of info, and your the type who would be very usefull to them and the campaign

 

[ocelot]

excellent detective work................

hats off!!

I've posted an edited copy of the post on the CRAG site so that the RTL for that region can get stuck in as well.............

Update on recent sting op, one of the CRAG members was present and sent this in.


quote
groups drove SF Myself and Matt with one PC and 2 glass reps with the other PC, our group drove from the northern end, the others from the south.

We encountered 3 bikes being unloaded and 2 were legal one was not (no number plate or insurance ) he was given a ticket for the number plate and warned not to ride the bike or it would be seized for no insurance.

We the drove to the center of SF and met the other group.

they had been caught up by a 2CV (legal) who didn't seem to approve of the op

Next 2 bikes came along 2 guys from Powys CC patrolling the area but not part of the op.

After an hour or so and no sign or sound of anyone it was decided to split the group and head out in the direction we were heading.

On the way out we heard on the CB from the other group had come across 2 Delica's who had seen and photographed 2 landrovers being driven along the river. They were also seen by and challenged by the guys from Powys CC who suggested to them that they should carry on driving down the lane.

On doing this they were met by the other group and PC. After initially denying driving along the river they were shown the photos and were given their S59 notices.

I understand that 2 other bikers were also ticketed for other offenses but I was not there to know what for.

I think this could only be considered a successful day, SF being quiet so not seen to be hugely overused, but also catching some of those responsible for the damage being done

 

[extreme-4x4]

one tries :augie:augie:augie

 

[ocelot]

Well, me old chippolatas'

Update................

I've heard through the grapevine that the local police are to start to hand out S59 notices again on the Sarn............. but..........

Only in response to substantiated complaints.

They don't have the manpower to police the right of way, so can only do so much. There are sting ops planned, I don't know any details tho.
As the council are unwilling to define the status of the Sarn at the visitor centre end, the police take the view that it's shut. It may well pave the way for a test case, any volunteers???

There is clearly a fair bit of confusion in government at the moment, the ruling in North Yorks has caused some consternation clearly, and an organisation called GLEAM (look it up on the web and no, it's not a cleaning product!) has issued every council and police force/CPS group with a 'you must do it this way and this is the best way to prosecute MPV on rights of way' document.

The author, a certain bartholemew chappie who is a well known anti and the individual behind many TRO's in North Yorks and North Wales, will be known to many MPV users. There's also another name to be aware of, Max Grant, based in Betwys y Coed, posts under the name of NWAIMOR, self appointed bunch of people telling the councils how they should run their rights of way........... I've met them, lots of talk and letter writing, mentioned that they'd be interested in getting involved in repairs but never seen hide nor hair, no answer to phone/email. Max is closely tied in with bartholemew tho so take note!!

 

[lacroupade]

Well, me old chippolatas'

Update................

I've heard through the grapevine that the local police are to start to hand out S59 notices again on the Sarn............. but..........

Only in response to substantiated complaints.

They don't have the manpower to police the right of way, so can only do so much. There are sting ops planned, I don't know any details tho.
As the council are unwilling to define the status of the Sarn at the visitor centre end, the police take the view that it's shut. It may well pave the way for a test case, any volunteers???

There is clearly a fair bit of confusion in government at the moment, the ruling in North Yorks has caused some consternation clearly, and an organisation called GLEAM (look it up on the web and no, it's not a cleaning product!) has issued every council and police force/CPS group with a 'you must do it this way and this is the best way to prosecute MPV on rights of way' document.

The author, a certain bartholemew chappie who is a well known anti and the individual behind many TRO's in North Yorks and North Wales, will be known to many MPV users. There's also another name to be aware of, Max Grant, based in Betwys y Coed, posts under the name of NWAIMOR, self appointed bunch of people telling the councils how they should run their rights of way........... I've met them, lots of talk and letter writing, mentioned that they'd be interested in getting involved in repairs but never seen hide nor hair, no answer to phone/email. Max is closely tied in with bartholemew tho so take note!!

Dave sadly I haven't got my scanner here so can't copy the hard copy document that Colin has got, but it contains the statement that I posted earlier, i.e. that although a more extensive TRO was considered for Sarn, it was never sealed so has no legal status. That means the only current closure on the route that the police can enforce is the Dec 1st-Mch 31st closure that has been in place for many years.

So the police can do nothing, except for issuing S59s to people abusing the ROW in any way, i.e. driving dangerously or causing damage.

I think the council is considering the latest closure proposal on 3rd September.

 

[extreme-4x4]

the documents i have concern the neath port talbot side of the sarn. that part is open at present, but they are trying to close it , as you all know and have sent your letters of objection in

but i think daves post refers to the powys section of the sarn. that is alegedly closed, but i have not seen any signage...... but if they do put some signs up i cant imagine they will stay there very long, the locals tend to pinch signs