What do people think?

[lacroupade]

Derbyshire Police to the NPA: ‘From a police perspective the important factor must be whether the TRO is enforceable…(and) the enforcement of TRO’s can never be regarded as high policing priority.

 

[lacroupade]

Just out of interest whats a TRO????? (serious question)

Traffic Regulation Order - shame on you :thumbs

 

[Deleted account DD]

Traffic Regulation Order - shame on you :thumbs

ah I was looking for a LARA GLAS ROW BIGHILL MUDDYFIELD type of meaning

Thank you

 

[Deleted account DD]

Derbyshire Police to the NPA: ‘From a police perspective the important factor must be whether the TRO is enforceable…(and) the enforcement of TRO’s can never be regarded as high policing priority.

spot on, and probably ties in with the failed s59 example above.

 

[Deleted account DD]

Daved is that technically correct; I didn't think it was a criminal offence per se...certainly when I've been security vetted by the MoD, Road Traffic offences have been deemed not just out of scope but absolutely NOT a 'criminal' record.:nenau

Pm en route :augie

 

[lacroupade]

http://www.cnp.org.uk/docs/Off_road_or_off_limits.pdf

worth a read as it clearly demonstrates the level of hysteria and crap levelled against one small section of the community.

But therein lies the problem with demonstrating - as an act alone, who the hell is it going to get sympathy from?

 

[Deleted account DD]

Daved is that technically correct; I didn't think it was a criminal offence per se...certainly when I've been security vetted by the MoD, Road Traffic offences have been deemed not just out of scope but absolutely NOT a 'criminal' record.:nenau

Once they reach a certain level, convictions are recorded on PNC for all.

Policing (as far as I recall) comes down to three main areas.

Crime, Traffic and general police duties. They can overlap and if you find yourself in the dock it depends upon the realistic chance of a result (for the crown) which offence will be pursued.

Crime has a lot of elements that have to be considered and many would argue the harder to convict. Those points include intention, actions, dishonesty............the list goes on.

Traffic matters tend to rely more where strict liability applies. ie only the occurrence of the offence needs proving not the state of mind etc.

Therfore a traffic conviction is not really a criminal conviction because it does not have the higher burden of proof.

If anyone can expand further please feel free

As far as the need to investigate, police have an obligation to respond be it via the phone or mobilising a full major incident set up to just about everything reported to them.

 

[Deleted account DD]

http://www.cnp.org.uk/docs/Off_road_or_off_limits.pdf

worth a read as it clearly demonstrates the level of hysteria and crap levelled against one small section of the community.

But therein lies the problem with demonstrating - as an act alone, who the hell is it going to get sympathy from?

It is a bit of an extreme document in parts but unfortunately its roots are in fact which will gain the public vote. I personally can vouch for the Roseberry topping image and some of the others so if I wanted to be narrow minded I've got them pointing me towards the very real live evidence and your protest simply saying let us in because it wasnt us that did it...honest.

No competition for the general public really is it :nenau

A good multi agency rapport in your area will elevate you above their level as well as the people creating the damage.

 

[lacroupade]

Totally agree, which is why I think a straight up demo without collateral is probably pointless.

First thing to do (thinking parochially) is to find out how the mysterious 'John' got on with his outings on SF. and then see what needs doing to address any damage occurring there....but same applies elsewhere....

 

[extreme-4x4]

no your all missing the point...

powys council have allegedly closed the sarn to traffic

but they use a part of the sarn for Joe public's vehicular access to the sarn visitor centre

as it said earlier you cant close some of it and issue s59's you have to close the whole of it and issue s5'9 on the whole length of it

so if 100 cars drove into the visitor centre theat 100 s59's the police would have to issue through the post.

this in turn would have 100 complaints letters to powys council every day and 100 potential court hearings fighting powys council


massive pain in the arse for everyone concerned

so how could they get round that one move the visitor centre or build a new road ?

 

[lacroupade]

no your all missing the point...

powys council have allegedly closed the sarn to traffic

but they use a part of the sarn for Joe public's vehicular access to the sarn visitor centre

as it said earlier you cant close some of it and issue s59's you have to close the whole of it and issue s5'9 on the whole length of it

so if 100 cars drove into the visitor centre theat 100 s59's the police would have to issue through the post.

this in turn would have 100 complaints letters to powys council every day and 100 potential court hearings fighting powys council


massive pain in the arse for everyone concerned

so how could they get round that one move the visitor centre or build a new road ?

No, just un-TRO the bit to the VC....simples? The council own the highways remember....and its a damn sight simpler to drop a bit of TRO than to raise one....but wheres the 'official' reporting of this issue by the way.....just interested because you know what 'facts' are like....and don't be long, I've got plans tonight :naughty:naughty:naughty

 

[extreme-4x4]

i have no fact im going on what dave (CRAG) mentioned.
for facts you need dave


plans my arse.... you might well have plans, but when she gets there and see's the state of the place.... you will be back to those white gloves again

 

[lacroupade]

i have no fact im going on what dave (CRAG) mentioned.
for facts you need dave


plans my arse.... you might well have plans, but when she gets there and see's the state of the place.... you will be back to those white gloves again

Her love for me will blind her to it....:augie:bow:bow

 

[Terranosaurus]

I don't see what the fuss is here - of course you can TRO part of it and not other parts, its only like any other TRO like speed limits they vary along a roads length not an issue, it just needs to be written into the order in that way. You would have to check the details of the TRO. They could easily say from this grid ref to this grid ref or starting 500m form etc - its fairly common tbh in order to allow access to legitimate users.

 

[Deleted account DD]

I don't see what the fuss is here - of course you can TRO part of it and not other parts, its only like any other TRO like speed limits they vary along a roads length not an issue, it just needs to be written into the order in that way. You would have to check the details of the TRO. They could easily say from this grid ref to this grid ref or starting 500m form etc - its fairly common tbh in order to allow access to legitimate users.

Absolutely correct. We've all seen the signs, "authorised user only" or "acces to visitors for the centre only" .

Most common one is "disabled access only" .......show me the blue badge for one of the occupants and we'll part no further action, if you cant you get a ticket.

I would also like to quash one further myth. There is absolutely no reason why these much vaunted s59's will be automatically handed out.

It is at the discretion of the officer dealing with the alleged offence which of the many powers , if any they invoke, and for them to justify why they chose that route.

If a situation is resolved it is not necessary for them to justify to a third party why they did not do something different (all subject to local and national guidelines of course)

If you missed a sign travelling alone on a road that said you weren't authorised yet some other legit users had but you got 59'd how would you feel? sledgehammer to crack a nut? I'm going to sue ? bloody police ? Theyre just a few of the things I'm sure.

have a look here because its even more unlikely that would happen http://www.hampshire.police.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FC5DA188-1F5E-468B-99A2-3DB2B615FDD9/0/28503.pdf particularly 3.1.3 & 3.1.4.

Not that straightforward really , and fraught with chances to trip up during enforcement.

Remember ask em, tell em, make em..........youve got a chance to do just that if you start speaking to the right people and put some time in :thumb2

By the time it comes to s59's there'll be so much backing you up you wont be able to step backwards let alone fall backwards :clap

 

[ocelot]

Just read and am now digesting the new bits of the thread.
From what I've read, the rally idea is a no go, wouldn't serve the purpose.

The , Ask, Tell, Make, concept seems far better I think.

I've written to the council asking for a clarification with regard to the lane. As this hasn't been forthcoming in the past, I don't expect a clear reply, but should get something back. Just have to start from there.

The police in Powys are somewhat overrun, under resourced and Powys is huge... largest county with the fewest number of people I think.

DAVED, total sense, cider soaked or otherwise, thanks for your thoughts, very very useful.
On a basic note, from my understanding with having worked for HM Government on albeit a very technical level for a very long time, I'm given to understand that if I believe an offence is being committed, then provided I have evidence to support my allegation, it has to be investigated by the relevant authorities......... points taken re the priority given to S59 notices, again, I've worked with North Wales Police a fair bit over the last few years and have seen these given out, I must stress, in the right circumstances.

I'd say, once we know the status of the lane, we should be able to determine a course of action, if we so desire.

 

[extreme-4x4]

well ive been chatting to lord croupade this weekend . and he has come up with a fantastic proposal.....

ill give him a couple of hours to tell you all the master plan.... :augie

 

[Deleted account DD]

I'm intrigued....................is it one children can view

 

[extreme-4x4]

ok well he is obviously too busy with his gloves now wifey has returned to wales

so ill spill the beans

he recons we need to do some work on the strata florida or similar.... explain our case ...

ie now the sarn is closed (maybe)

we should organise a big meet involving tree planting and repairs

the trees would be to mark the route, be seen as being enviro nutters, and making the place safer for everyone bikes cycles walkers alike

then once we have made a good name for ourselves we could tackle the sarn or ask to do the same there


ok what you recon, i liked the idea, but he does know how to put an argument accross .... as you will all have seen:doh

 

[Deleted account DD]

Sounds bloody good.

Just be more tactful on the "nutters" bit :lol:lol:lol:lol

In all seriousness, get other groups involved too, or record the fact they ignore or decline invitations to join in.

:thumb2