What do people think?

[ocelot]

Many of you know that the Brecon Beacons National Park closed part of Sarn Helen although some considerable works have been done to make the lane safe and drievable.
Powys in particular have been fairly useless in looking after rights of way and are known for ignoring MPV users.

Rhyader in particular and Powys in general would be a suitable location for a rally, in part to protest at the closure of a number of rights of way in the Rhyader area, and, also to celebrate the positive contributions many users make to rights of way throughout England and Wales.

I'm booting around the idea of a peaceful demonstration and a rally at the end of it, I'd like to include other organisations like GLASS, LARA, AWDC and CRAG and whoever else people can think of.

The rally could be tied in with some positive and proactive events, laning, lance clearance, even a right of way repair.

In terms of press, the usual 4x4 mags, local and national papers, bbc and independants............

It's all possible, with the permission of the local authorities.
The aim is to raise the profile of those who use rights of way and the voluntary work which is done to keep those rights of way open, the main question is 'Why won't BBNP and Powys take similar views' ?

It's only an idea................. let me know what you think, positive or negative

Regards

Dave

 

[lacroupade]

I confess to being undecided.

I think lanes fall between two general categories, those that the bobble-hats and others use regularly and want to make an example of (Sarn Helen?) and those that they don't use so much and have less interest in (Strata Florida?).

For ROWs in the first category, I'd be interested to see what the actual impact has been of concerted attempts to prevent closures, because I have a view that says the councils clearly wish to reduce or remove funding obligations for maintenance, which, together with enough noise from the BHs and landowners is usually sufficient to pretty much guarantee closure in most cases. If thats not proven to be the case it would be good to see the evidence, since that will inform how you respond.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have routes like Strata Florida which are probably in the minority in having much lower rates of foot traffic, but to us are outstanding routes that we'd definitely want to preserve. Trouble is, as soon as you start to make a noise about it, you raise its profile, more 'interested parties' get engaged, the council is forcibly reminded of its maintenance obligations (which as I've suggested before, in the case of Strata are almost certainly financially prohibitive) and hey presto, the council starts to build a case for closure.

So I think public demonstration is a double-edged sword that could bite us in the bum if it doesn't have a very specific focus.

What would be far more useful IMHO would be an agreed, documented programme of maintenance work, and a 'marketing programme' for want of a better phrase, to increase awareness on the part of less responsible users (or in some cases just unaware users!) of the potential results of their actions, plus a Common Code of Practice (the basis for which already exists in a number of places but needs wider adoption/publicity). These programmes would need to be underway and demonstrating results, but not necessarily completed, before more public action is warranted, and even then its probably more effective in response a specific closure debate when one arises.

 

[extreme-4x4]

well me and dave (ecelot) have been chatting about this, in quite some length , throwing ideas around.

in my oppinion, the problem has already started to snowball. take the sarn for example. usually quite busy, as its always been very popular.
the trouble is neath council have there part open and brecon have closed there part (to traffic), this year already there is a marked drop in use of the sarn that is open. this is good for me because the neath part of the sarn is less at risk now....

trouble is the likes of strata florida have now become more attractive. and certainly seem to be suffering from much heavier use. because it not under any restrictions yet.

so closing the sarn (brecon part) has automaticly put strata florida under more rick of closing in the very near future. because it is already being used more this year

something has to be done this year, before its closed ..... its easy to say wait and see, but the trouble is once closed they are very hard to get re opened,

i think a demonstration could if done right, show the councils there is strength in numbers, a united way of thinking accross the whole 4x4 community. it will also give us and glass, crag and lara a chance to show people there is a right way to behave in the countryside, and educate people to this... also the outsides like me and thousands of others will actually see some action and shown they are not shut out.

it could be a good chance to demonstrate to the police and councils. there is a plan, a responsible green laning charter or rule book in place. and we are trying to educate people to this way of thinking. to look after the lanes.
we could also show the councils there is a united front and plenty of people who are willing to give up there time to improve and repair the lanes, and the councils could actually save some money and have there lanes in good repair for other users... ie mountain bikes and hickers

you all know me i dont suck up very often but its got to be a good thing to pull everyone together and get them on side


another thing that could be done... and ive not mentioned this to dave yet, you could offer membership to the likes of lara glass and crag. as one union ... once you have given one weekend of your time helping on an organised repair event

anyway ive said my bit but in principle its a good idea.

so come one people have your say

 

[lacroupade]

Agree with most of that Col, but its important to remember that, despite the impression given by other less helpful people before Dave came along, the police are not interested.

Responsibility for highways rests with the county council, and when it comes to ROWs, the police will normally only respond to complaints from the CC or from members of the public (sometimes) - other than that they are not into regular organised patrols of closed ROWs for the sake of it, despite what we might like to think - they've got better things to do.

So the only people that need impressing are the councils themselves, since its them that have the power of closure...and thats why its important to be seen to be doing something physical, like maintenance, as opposed to just cruising up and down the road complaining, all that does is draw unwelcome attention - you have to establish credibility and a track record to have anything to crow about.

I mean PR is easy enough to organise with a call to the local paper or TV, but all it would come across is as a bunch of macho saddos bitching cos they can't play army soldiers in the countryside. But if you've got a clear track record in the locality of doing good work, thats worth a lot more.

So a bit of PR for some remote backwoods maintenance would be a hell of a lot more useful in my opinion.....blocking the road in contrast takes no effort at all - Pete does it all the time:lol:lol:lol

So a chat with the council ROW officer to get his buy-in to some restoration work or signposting/routing would get him onside and provide an opportunity to show how the 4x4 community CAN come together and do something more useful than scaring bobble-hats...:sly

 

[makeitfit]

Depending on the date you go for I'll bring at least 6 trucks:sly

 

[ocelot]

Cheers guys, some interesting thoughts,
As for evidence, there are a number of lanes throughout Wales and Shropshire which have been repaired, some considerable repairs at that, other lanes, especially in Shropshire, have been opened up....... or should I say, re-opened.

This thread is in the light of the recent partial victory in the law courts over North Yorks National Park, where four TRO's were set aside. Eight were originally in place.
http://www.laragb.org/press-rel/YDNPA-TROs-quashed.pdf

That's the link detailing the court action.

But, and this is a BIG, but.............

49 people have viewed this thread, only four have contributed, does this mean that most are fence sitters? I'm not having a go here at anyone, but there needs to be a common will here to actually do someting, lane repairs, clearances, whatever positive!

Great idea re the memebership....... I'll send that out via email and see what they think!

 

[Adz]

:thumb2 COUNT ME IN :thumb2​

:thumb2 if tis on a weekend & i dont have me kids :thumb2​

 

[extreme-4x4]

thats the trouble.... iv not spoken to any of team wales about your thread, they have all given there own views and feelings on it.

sadly you dont get any input from anyone else about laning issues , unless its to tell you "you have done something wrong"
and they all jump in on you then.

thats why i have history with the associations etc.
no input whatsoever

its a breath of fresh air your around,

sadly we will be talking about this next year, asking how or why they closed loads more lanes

the answer is simple they are just moving the problem elsewhere.

that could be the approach needed, have a demonstration to show that powys and breacon beacons np . are not taking care of there responsibilities and through them closing the sarn and others. it is putting other councils out of pocket. because they have just moved the problem out of there back yard into someone elses.

and that is in effect what they have done, if you closed a duel carrageway the traffic will find another route.

even if nothing comes from this thread, it wil havel at least promoted the fact that CRAG does listen and is interested. i for one will help at any weekender im invited to. to help repair roads lanes or put up signage.

its crucial we all put something in , if we want our lanes to stay open .

we need to show the councils that do play ball, we are makeing a concerted effort to repair the lanes, while the councils that dont play ball there is a big enough force to challenge them. its possible we might get neighbouring councils on side to put pressure on the unhelpfull councils


remember overload is not just going to happen in wales , if they close lanes in your area , the next attractive lane will suffer overload, and that too will become under threat

 

[lacroupade]

Well I'm pleased to see that the small donation I made when I paid my CRAG subs has paid off, even if it is for benefit the good folks of the United Socialist Republic Of Yorkshire :lol

I'd be up for anything so long as its legal and includes something positive like maintenance activity somewhere, preferably within striking distance of the valleys bach!

 

[Terranosaurus]

Well I'm pleased to see that the small donation I made when I paid my CRAG subs has paid off, even if it is for benefit the good folks of the United Socialist Republic Of Yorkshire :lol

Crag aren't members of LARA so it didn't but thats another matter.

I can see merit in the proposed demo but equally as others have voiced it has its draw backs too.

One thing that really needs doing is people must write to object to proposed TROs when they are announced. The response in Yorkshire last year was dire and was one of the ways they managed to railroad through the TROs that have just been quashed. If enough people object they have to take that into account. If they don't they will not be following due process and so there would be grounds to have the resulting TRO quashed again. For the ones in the Dales fors out numbered against by 3:1 IRC but there were only about 200 letters all told so it wouldn't take huge numbers to tip the balance the other way.

One thng to note if you do write objecton letters then don't mention any organisations as some councils/NPs have a habit of counting all objections fro one organistaion as just one objection. So if you are a member of say GLASS/CRAG don't mention it. That said someone could object on behalf of the N&FM4x4OC but it should be coordintaed so only one person does it.

Also yo can object to any proposal anywhere, you don't need to be a local or even ever have been there or be planning to. Though obviously it helps if you don't say as much in your letter.

With that in mind I will be posting the latest proposed TROs from North York Moors NP - can lots of people please object by letter or email when I do.


If we are going to beat these people the best way is to use the existing legal framework, the Ramblers Assc etc are very good at working the system, we need to do the same, te recent result in the high court is a start and is good ammunition against other councils and NPS but its far from the end.

 

[lacroupade]

Crag aren't members of LARA so it didn't but thats another matter.

.

I've been stiffed!

 

[ocelot]

Crag aren't members of LARA so it didn't but thats another matter.

I can see merit in the proposed demo but equally as others have voiced it has its draw backs too.

One thing that really needs doing is people must write to object to proposed TROs when they are announced. The response in Yorkshire last year was dire and was one of the ways they managed to railroad through the TROs that have just been quashed. If enough people object they have to take that into account. If they don't they will not be following due process and so there would be grounds to have the resulting TRO quashed again. For the ones in the Dales fors out numbered against by 3:1 IRC but there were only about 200 letters all told so it wouldn't take huge numbers to tip the balance the other way.

One thng to note if you do write objecton letters then don't mention any organisations as some councils/NPs have a habit of counting all objections fro one organistaion as just one objection. So if you are a member of say GLASS/CRAG don't mention it. That said someone could object on behalf of the N&FM4x4OC but it should be coordintaed so only one person does it.

Also yo can object to any proposal anywhere, you don't need to be a local or even ever have been there or be planning to. Though obviously it helps if you don't say as much in your letter.

With that in mind I will be posting the latest proposed TROs from North York Moors NP - can lots of people please object by letter or email when I do.


If we are going to beat these people the best way is to use the existing legal framework, the Ramblers Assc etc are very good at working the system, we need to do the same, te recent result in the high court is a start and is good ammunition against other councils and NPS but its far from the end.

I beg to differ.................

CRAG are members of LARA........in partnership with all of the other member organisations. So anyone who joins CRAG is seeing their subs used well.

re your other comments, partly true, the organisations come into play when large numbers get together to make a point, a great example are the ramblers, I agree with using the legal framework, however, we do have a right to protest which is pure legislature, we should use all of the legally available tools at our disposal, just saying that we should use the legal framework, ie the courts, is to simply disassociate ourselves from actually doing anything, I am a novice when it comes to legal matters, don't get me wrong, I've written many letters and taken part in challenges to various councils over the years, but I can't be effective in a court of law, neither can most of us in here and to put the responsibility of keeping rights of way open, onto the shoulders of our legal colleagues is just not on!

The key is getting enough voters to voice one viewpoint, peacefully.
The challenge is, do we collectively have enough courage to do that?

 

[Terranosaurus]

Legal framework doesn't have to mean courts. What I meant was playing the system properly when there is a proposed TRO, writing objections. There was a pityful lack of them for the ones in the dales last year - is it any wonder the TROs were railroaded through.

As for CRAG and LARA it hardly matters but just a case of credit where credit id due......

From LARA website

Amateur Motor Cycle Assn.
Association of Land Rover Clubs
Auto-Cycle Union
All Wheel Drive Club
British Motorcyclists Federation
Green Lane Association
Motor Cycle Industry Assn.
MSA
The Trail Riders Fellowship

 

[extreme-4x4]

Legal framework doesn't have to mean courts. What I meant was playing the system properly when there is a proposed TRO, writing objections. There was a pityful lack of them for the ones in the dales last year - is it any wonder the TROs were railroaded through.

As for CRAG and LARA it hardly matters but just a case of credit where credit id due......

From LARA website

trouble is i or we the outsiders are not privy to that information. so we cant write a object cos we don't know about them. i have written letters for the ones you mentioned earlier, and i did one letter per lane , so they cant pick and choose

another thing im always moaning about... what one do you join cos it looks like your all fighting your own battles....... not as one

thats why it fails... not only cant i or we decide who or what to join, while we are deciding we are already loosing and wasting valuable time.

the ramblers ass was big and very committed in the early days and they won everything

share the information

and im not picking on anyone, but you cant fight it alone

 

[Terranosaurus]

trouble is i or we the outsiders are not privy to that information.

Privvy to what information?

 

[extreme-4x4]

well how am i, in wales supposed to know if a lane is under threat in yorkshire or the isle of sky for that matter...

so how can we help, if we dont know

today we got info and i did something with it

 

[Terranosaurus]

Today you got some info because today I got some info - however it is all out there on the net if you look for it hard enough.

this is why GLASS has a network of local reps who try to keep tabs on what is happening in their local area, try to get on appropriatte mailing klist setc but unfortunately these councils can be a bit slippery, they have to give notice and they have to publicise but precisely how is a but vague and stuff sometimes slips the radar only by being part of a large organisation with many ears to the ground will you hear lots.

TBH I don't know the full politics of why we have GLASS and CRAG but I do know which split from which. I beleive OCELOT s best placed to explain that one.

 

[lacroupade]

TBH I don't know the full politics of why we have GLASS and CRAG but I do know which split from which. I beleive OCELOT s best placed to explain that one.

It would be useful to know if theres any history?:nenau

 

[extreme-4x4]

history is rarely a good place to visit.... the future is what matters



you can only change the future

 

[lacroupade]

history is rarely a good place to visit.... the future is what matters



you can only change the future

has Gordon Brown nicked your PC or something? :nenau:nenau:nenau:lol