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There has been a bit of a kick off on an other site regaurding this laning trip with peeps saying that the vid showed you's going off piest again:augie:confused::confused::confused:
 
Sweety said:
There has been a bit of a kick off on an other site regaurding this laning trip with peeps saying that the vid showed you's going off piest again:augie:confused::confused::confused:
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So I'd heard Sweety. And yes its true. We made some tyre tracks driving at an excessive 25 mph on a gravelled forest road that might have caused problems for the odd 40-tonne lorry or Unimog, not to mention the odd non-existent pedestrian.

As we said the last time this came up, we hear peoples point of view, but these forest tracks are literally miles from civilisation in a remote part of central Wales. No gates were opened to gain access and no life forms were encountered.

So people can moan all they like, but until our low-key activities cause a problem, its a non-event as far as we are concerned. Worst case its a private, civil matter between us and the landowner, which could be either FC or a private timber company....either way it doesn't involve the police or anyone else.

We didn't act irresponsibly at any point, especially as we had a visitor and his wife with us and weren't about to expose them to anything .....in fact bizarrely, with the number of cyclists and motorcylists around, we had to take far more care on the BOATS, stopping or slowing to let them by. And I have to say, in my experience, as often as not its the m/cs that are the most intrusive, noisy, aggressive crowd, often with genuine offroad (as in unlicensed) machines that would be a real problem if they caused someone an injury or worse.
 
Would'nt it be better to find out 100% if the tracks are legal to drive first to save any chance getting into a legal battle & this club getting named & dragged into it:confused::confused::confused:
 
Sweety said:
Would'nt it be better to find out 100% if the tracks are legal to drive first to save any chance getting into a legal battle & this club getting named & dragged into it:confused::confused::confused:
Click to expand...

Sweety - I don't know what you can be confused about?

What legal battle?

The law of trespass is extremely clear and is a simple civil matter between the landowner and the trespasser. If we were ever stopped we would respond politely and leave. End of story.

Having said that, if we were stupid (and I take offence at the implications from other quarters that we are a bunch of f**kwits) we could refuse and the landowner would have to apply for a legal injunction to have us removed - that takes 2-3 weeks, just as when the local authority needs to move travellers on. No police, no S59s, etc.. etc..

This doesn't involve this site any more than a happy-slapping video on youtube for gods sake.

If people see us genuinely behaving dangerously/stupidly, or there is a media campaign as a result, then I for one would accept all criticism; until then, I don't know why we are having this discussion again.
 
Well I think your attitude says it all ie your going to do what you like when you like whether the lanes have a ROW or not & it's ok as long as you don't drive dangours/stupid. As for regaurding the club activities like this are'nt helping it's reputation when it's getting named in posts about possiably illegal driving. Why is this being brought up ? well I thought after last time the true facts regaurding ROW would have been checked out. But as you imply I know nothing i'll just shut up as you know it all:augie:augie
 
not that i want to take sides, as i think both of you are right
but it basicly comes down to the degree of the law breaking.

for example
your road tax runs out on tuesday you dont have the money till friday ... but you do tax it as soon as you get paid on the friday... now you have knowingly broken the law wednesday and thursday ... and we have all done it

you discover your rear light has blown, so you fix it when you get home or to a service station... but you still knowingly broke the law till you have fixed it


your tyre is just on the limit ar a slight nick in it ... no money again till friday but you do it as soon as you can afford it

now i got stopped the other night for break light not working, i said to the nice copper oh i keep fixing that. it does work give it a tap... he did it worked and he said fine ... have a good look at it when you can. make sure its working ... and said goodbye

now the forrest are policed they do have a copper who polices them in his forrestry commision sponsered landy (endurace bike champion too i beleive). i even sat and chatted to him one sunday morning in macdonnalds
he explained it is illegal and he will issue section 59 if your being a pain in the bum. ie wrecking the place or make him chase you .
but he said if i see you in the forrest, i will ask you to leave. if you make a run for it or i catch you again that day . dont bother i will just park up the landy and get the bike out. i will get you, there is nowhere i cant get to. and you will get a section 59. next time its crushed

but if you leave when politely asked im happy with that, just dont wreck the place.

he said i know whats going on the painfull people will suffer if your just exploring and driving safely i have no problems.
also you might not see me but i have seen you several times and you are on video so i dont even have to catch up with you to send you a section 59.

he's a fair man id say. but then it is different here in wales, they do have a different attitude to life , more relaxed. (and im english so i know what its like on both sides of the border)
what they dont want is distruction or uninsured wrecks bombing around the forrest. or kids nicking cars and burning them up the mountain.

so i do understand sweety's its the law thing but we do only bend the law slightly and we all do that

i remember someone posted a video on here when i first joined
it showed a t2 (maybe white)i beleive going through a river crossing with a big splash. a member from here. i remember the vid cos i said the second attemt was near perfect..... but that video also showed a nice bit of laning where the lane was blocked by a fallen tree one t2 went over the tree and the rest of the party including a purple t2/mav and a 110 landy in green going through the woods a long way around the tree
no im not one for nit picking, but is that illegal not sticking to the lanes and diverting off into the woods.
im not one for naming and shaming as i would have done the same, but these people are the ones who then say we are giving the club a bad name.

so come on guys lets not have one rule for one and not the others.

ive had my wrist slapped for the dohnut thing and i dont do that no more, it wrecks the truck for one thing , but as terra says its not helping the situation with the hickers or greeies.
25 mph down a track that could have easilly been explained to anyone concerned as "sorry wrong turn, we are lost".
is hardly worth falling out over.

especially as if you had broken down up there you wouldnt see another car or walker for hours if at all that day

also has anyone seen the mess the land is left in after logging has been done. its like a war zone. i often go up there when they move out to get loggs myself form all the crap left behind.


so i do understand both side... but we cant all be perfect citizens and not break any law ... just remember ive seen the video's and i bet there are more
 
Sweety said:
Well I think your attitude says it all ie your going to do what you like when you like whether the lanes have a ROW or not & it's ok as long as you don't drive dangours/stupid. As for regaurding the club activities like this are'nt helping it's reputation when it's getting named in posts about possiably illegal driving. Why is this being brought up ? well I thought after last time the true facts regaurding ROW would have been checked out. But as you imply I know nothing i'll just shut up as you know it all:augie:augie
Click to expand...

Sweety lets just put to things to bed.

Firstly, whatever people like to think, this is NOT a club. It a pay-to-view website. It has no other legal status, so spare me the stuff about reputation.

Secondly, its important to differentiate between two types of route being described here.

If we were to drive a ROW that is not a BOAT (and we don't and haven't) then that attracts bad press. i.e. in the wost case you're driving a thumping great 4x4 up a footpath where a little old lady is walking her poodle. Yes that gets bad press, yes that pees off the public and NO, for the umpteenth time we don't do that or suggest it.

And yes, if we did such a dumb thing and got caught by the police ON THE RIGHT OF WAY then they would ask us to leave, and for persistent behaviour, issue a Section 59 order. And of course we'd be twerps.

But these forest tracks ARE NOT ROWs. They are private property and therefore nothing to do with the police whatever they might think - they cannot issue a S59 on private property. In fact the police have no more power to make you leave or issue a S59 there than if you came and parked in my back garden. If there is a 'forestry officer' as Extreme says, then I question seriously what they told him and their powers and would love to know more about the grounds on which they claim them.....they have none on private property, only on public property or ROWs.

They could give me an S59 for doing donuts on a public road, or on a BOAT, or for merely driving on a ROW that was not open to vehicles. But I could donut to me hearts content in the forest (if I were that stupid) because the only person who could stop me is the landowner with a civil action.

The offence of trespass on private property is a civil matter not a police one.

So lets get this straight.

1. We do not drive on ROWs unless they are BOATs. And when we do, I think we act a hell of a lot more sensibly than I've seen people on other tracks - we drive at reasonable speed, we pull over to let people pass and we don't make a bloody mess.

2. If, hypothetically, we drove on forest tracks, thats nothing to do with ROWs, and since it would be done in the ass-end of nowhere, neither does it interact with members of the public and neither do we drop our driving standards., and as I'm sure you know, for a trespasser to be successfully prosecuted, damage has to be shown to have been caused. On a deeply rutted gravel track that is.....:confused::confused::confused:


I'll say it again, this is not about misuse of ROWs which attracts bad press, but about hypothetical use of remote, private forest tracks which doesn't as far as I am aware.

I bet you flash people that overtake you as well.....

But as I said, this is all nonsense because we behave quietly and the only thing you'll see is the odd picture posted in this private forum...so whats the big deal???
 
Sticking the boot in

Looks like someone is trying to stick the boot in before they depart the club if you ask me ?
Some people just cant survive without causing conflict between others can they?
I have made lots of videos over the last year or so of my trips with the intentions of showing others the fun that I've had and can be had.
As soon as there is a slight chance I may have wandered off piste a little, fellow 4x4 enthusiasts take the opportunity to brand me some kind of 'Laning pirate'.
This kind of attitude is making the whole 4x4 thing look quite scary to the beginner surely ?
None of us (I believe) want to cause trouble in any way out on the lanes but all this crap is dividing the 4x4 environment apart. These people have an hidden agenda in my mind. World domination perhaps ? Who knows ?
Why not help each other rather than gloat or slander ?
 
Exactly the point DB....if you drive your 4x4 on a Right of Way that isn't open to vehicles and thats used by other people, usually walkers, you are going to cause trouble one way or another.

But people seem to be confusing a private forest track with a ROW, when they are no such thing. Its absolutely no different to me parking my car at the back of the estate agents when I go shopping - which is why police are powerless to act over clampers. Same principle.
 
IN FACT HERES A LUCID EXPLANATION OF THE SUBJECT, AND I WAS WRONG IN THAT THE POLICE DO HAVE VERY LIMITED POWERS IN VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH DON'T APPLY HERE. REMEMBER THIS APPLIES TO PRIVATE LAND NOT RIGHTS OF WAY.

Apart from a very few examples of local custom and tradition which survive in England's legal system, law which is not contained within a specific Act is known as Common Law. It is built up by the courts and their judgments. This means that, in deciding a particular case, the court must have regard to the principles of law laid down in earlier reported cases on the same or similar points, although the law may be extended or varied if the facts of the particular case are sufficiently different.

In fact, many aspects of the law shown here are also controlled by statute law (which is the other sort of law made by Parliament) but as a general heading, these matters can be grouped together as based on or originating in on common law.

Scottish Common Law is often different from English, sometimes significantly so. The following applies to English law only, and are guidelines only. If you want reliable legal advice ask your solicitor, not some website.

Damage
Anyone damaging anything deliberately and without good reason is committing an offence. This includes plants, trees, and all installations such as fences, signs, or paths. However, see below under theft for a note on picking flowers, fruit, fungi and foliage.

Trespass
As applied to a piece of land open to the public which is not common land, open access land, or a public right of way. This is also one area where the laws of England and Scotland are significantly different. It is against the law to trespass on any land (and inland that includes land covered by water such as rivers or lakes) or in any building. Ignorance of that fact is no defence under this law. The word trespass covers much more than people usually realise. All land in this country belongs to someone. If you go on to land without the owner's permission, you are trespassing unless there is some right of access for the public, or for you specifically (for example if you have acquired a right to pass over the land to reach some land of your own).

Walkers (not trespassers!)Any person can enter a place if the landowners permit it. However, this does not necessarily make a permanent right of access, and unless they have dedicated a bit of land to be permanently open it is within the power of the landowner to ask any person to leave, assuming that person does not have some other lawful reason to be there. The landowner does not have to give a reason. If the person does not go immediately, by the shortest practical route, then they are trespassing. Despite the well known sign ‘trespassers will be prosecuted’, trespass is not a criminal offence and trespassers cannot usually be prosecuted. They can, however, be sued. There is little chance of such a matter ever being so serious as to be worth suing over, and so this rarely happens.

People in a park will often protest (if asked to leave) that it is public land. However the ownership of the land is not relevant. Even if the land is owned by a public body, such as the local council, this does not mean necessarily that they have a right to be on it at all times - they do not. If the place closes at a certain time and a visitor remains after that time, they can then be considered to be trespassing. If a visitor misbehaves at any time and refuses to leave when asked to do so by someone with a right to do so (usually the landowner or a representative) then the visitor could becomes a trespasser because they no longer have the landowner's permission to be there, even if they entered legally. Note: this also gives landowners the absolute right to close off paths (other than rights of way), and areas without notice or explanation.

This law is of little practical use but might be employed when arguing with more reasonable people. It does not apply to people on a public footpath or other right of way, or on open access land. The problem is that if someone is trespassing, they are unlikely to comply with a polite request to leave, and if they then do not, the landowner has little if any further recourse. Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 allows the senior police officer attending the scene of an incident involving a trespass or nuisance on land to order trespassers to leave the land and to remove their vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable. The power can only be used when there are two or more people there and "are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, [and] that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave" and either the trespassers have six or more vehicles between them, or they have caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour - or both. So really it's not likely to cover anything other than a major invasion. This power is not often used, but for practical purposes this is the only instance where you might get the police to come and actually remove trespassers from a bit of land.

Sometimes, people go onto private property, such as woodland, which is not apparently fenced off and where the owners do not seem to mind. The fact that there is no fence or no sign saying that the land is private does not mean that people can go there. Wandering on to farmers' fields or other places which are obviously private is clearly trespassing, but so is wandering over land which may not be so clearly private, if the public has no right of access.

It is not normally possible to be a trespasser whilst legitimately on a right of way. However, if the user is not using the right of way as a route to get from one place to another, but using it for some other reason, such as to interfere with the landowner, they can be considered to be a trespasser. A real example of this (before open access land was in existence) concerned a hunt saboteur who was deemed by a court to be a trespasser for shouting and waving flags, whilst on a footpath, on a grouse moor. This important distinction was the purpose for which the person was there. This does not mean that it is always wrong to shout and wave flags on a footpath.
 
dadba said:
Looks like someone is trying to stick the boot in before they depart the club if you ask me ?
Some people just cant survive without causing conflict between others can they?
Click to expand...

How did I know you were going to post something like that dadba:augieas for the conflict bit that is def not me:augie but you do have a history of causing conflict.

It was my understanding this site was a club from what members have said over the years & that the site is called the NISSAN4X4OWNERSCLUB:confused::confused::confused:
Well post what you want as I won't be readying this thread any more:augieI do find it strange that peeps can post a load of nothing & nowt is said but if a queation or a debate is raised over something posted that person gets shot down faster than any thing:doh
 
So, Dadba, what have you got to say for yourself you baaaaad boy?

SWEETY - its nothing personal mate, I just get fed up with all this negative crap with no sound basis to it...and if they can kick off so can I! :naughty:thumb2

Re the club thing (cos I guarantee you'll come back and read this you sly fox), folk can call it what you like, but its a pay-to-view website, nothing more....a Maverick/Terrano porn site if you like....and thats not to diss it, just a statement of pure unadulterated fact - sorry to shatter your illusions.

Thats how come it was SOLD by one person to another...ever heard of that happening with a cricket club? Nope, probably not. Maybe I'll take it up with the committee. Ummmm. Oh.
 
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