Another Team Wales Epic....

[Terranosaurus]

ok what is the specifics on the sarn helen then ?


please


ok so if you say join glass your the rep ....... sell it to me . what do i get for my money ?

Srn Helen isn't really one lane - its like asking me to tell you about the pennine way as I'm sure you well know.

But if you start HERE you should e able to follow it using the other tracks connected to link. But heres a sample f the full info that is available from trailwise, not to mention the mapping tools that members get to use

Track geographical detail :-
Start: SN 7846 0003 tarmac Streetmap Photos End: SN 8081 0351 junction Streetmap Photos Google Map
Other Tracks which connect to this one : SN8003-01

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Name or alias: Sarn Helen

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Track useability detail :-
No known official restrictions.

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(icons derived from Definitive Map details)

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PRoW (Definitive Map, etc.), Roads and Highway Authority records :-

RoW Ref: 39 Status: Byway Open to All Traffic (BOAT)
Highway Authority : Neath
We don't have a Street record.

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Most recent user comments (max 4):-
General comment : NPT have decided to bring the TRO forward so its closed over the August bank holiday along with SN8508-5a
20/08/2007, by Gareth Seymour
General comment : Some evidence that this did indeed close on September 1st. Will confirm this when hear back from RoW department or get chance to check for myself.
05/09/2005, by Simon Stirley
General comment : Dirven 03/07/05, couldn't see any indication of a current TRO (seasonal or otherwise), discussion with some local users we met drew a blank, AFAIK must be open all year round now.
04/07/2005, by Jon Wildsmith
General comment : Only open to vehicles during June/July/August
09/01/2003, by Gareth Seymour

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Most recent usage forms summary (max 6):-
Usage record (UEF) - date: 19/08/2007 type : car User: Gareth Seymour [226]
user note: 1 vehciles and passed 2 motorbikes. Good general condition.
Usage record (UEF) - date: 13/08/2006 type : car User: Colin Wyatt [636]

Usage record (UEF) - date: 18/06/2006 type : car User: Colin Wyatt [636]

Usage record (UEF) - date: 27/08/2005 type : car User: David Rees [1531]
user note: Byway is now blocked twice with mounds of earth and rock at Banwen (northern) end. Once where it enters the Walters Arena site at SN 8520 0850 and again where it leaves the site at SN 8550 0925.
Usage record (UEF) - date: 31/07/2005 type : car User: David Rees [1531]

Usage record (UEF) - date: 16/07/2005 type : car User: David Rees [1531]

Detailed Usage records...​

<form action="enter_uef.php" method="post" id="quickuef"> <fieldset><legend> quick form for your own Usage Evidence entry </legend> <input value="9074" name="link_id" type="hidden"> <input value="date of use dd/mm/yy" class="qfhint" name="uef_date" id="uef_date"> <select name="uef_type"><option value="foot">on foot</option> <option value="horse">riding or leading a horse</option> <option value="cycle">on cycle (unmotorised)</option> <option value="car">in motor vehicle (3 or more wheels)</option> <option value="mc">on motorcycle</option> <option value="carriage">in carriage or cart (unmotorised)</option> <option value="pass">passenger in motor vehicle</option> <option value="other">other</option> </select> <select name="uef_dir"><option value="forward">Direction -> W/S to E/N)</option><option value="backward">Direction <- E/N to W/S)</option></select>
<input size="72" value="any comments" class="qfhint" name="uef_comment" id="uef_comment"> <input value="Add your Usage" class="twbutton" id="uef_submit" type="submit">
</fieldset></form> <script type="text/javascript"> function clearInputDefaults(){ if(xx=document.getElementById('uef_date')) { if(xx.value==xx.defaultValue) xx.value=""; } if(xx=document.getElementById('uef_comment')){if(xx.value==xx.defaultValue) xx.value="";} } function hideInputDefaults(){ if(this.value&&this.value==this.defaultValue){this.className="";this.value="";} } function showInputDefaults(){ if(this.value==""){this.className="qfhint";this.value=this.defaultValue;} } var xx=document.getElementById('uef_date');xx.onfocus = hideInputDefaults;xx.onblur=showInputDefaults; xx=document.getElementById('uef_comment');xx.onfocus = hideInputDefaults;xx.onblur=showInputDefaults; xx=document.getElementById('quickuef');xx.onsubmit = clearInputDefaults; </script>
Known EVIDENCE summary for this Track .. (pops up below)
Close info box EVIDENCE : landranger - VALE OF GLAMORGAN, RHONDDA & PORTHCAWL : BOAT
recorded 09/01/2003 by Gareth Seymour

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Close info box
Stakeholder; ha :- Neath (Full Details)
Stakeholder; sa :- Neath (Full Details)

database Event history of this Link .. (pops up below)
Close info boxDatabase EVENT Track created : Gareth Seymour 06-04-2007 00:00 : Sector data created on legacy Wayfinder

Close info box
Info - old Wayfinder Project legacy UIDs: Lane SN7800-2a Sector SSN7800-2a
Add this track to my Favourites

As for selling it to you, you get

Full access to Trailwise - thats worth the membership fee on its own IMHO
Full access to the glass site
Access to the GLASS forum
Access to GLASS area reps
1/4ly Magazine
Legal assistance if you do end up on the wrong end of the law despite best efforts etc

You also get to contribute towards the fighting fund for legal action, LARA, TRF, GLASS etc are currently taking Yorkshire Dales National Park to the high court over its lanes closures last year, the result of this case has ramifications in al National Parks and beyond

 

[extreme-4x4]

i think im already a member of trailwise.... i looked a few times but it might as well have been written in french ... sadly i didnt understand it,
maybe we could organise a meet in wales to learn about it.

to be honest they do look like they could be usefull tools if i could understand them.
is there a rep in our area for glass.
im interested and i expect others will be if we sorted a meet to have ,like a lesson on how it all works.

could pay in the long run:nenau

 

[extreme-4x4]

ok found this on our site....

The Green Lane Association(GLASS),Trail Riders Fellowship(TFR) and Llanerchindda Farm are compiling user evidence to back up claims that SARN Helen should remain open for vehicles to use.
If you have driven SARN Helen(Ordnance Survey grid reference from SN 879 118 to SN 927 167 and SN 924 185 to SN 962 242) between 16th November 2001 and 16th November 2006 they want to here from you.

so what is the possition on these sections of sarn helen ..... in dummies terms please so its easy to understand

this is the sections we plan to do on the april wales meet


thanks and sorry to be a pain

 

[Terranosaurus]

ok found this on our site....

The Green Lane Association(GLASS),Trail Riders Fellowship(TFR) and Llanerchindda Farm are compiling user evidence to back up claims that SARN Helen should remain open for vehicles to use.
If you have driven SARN Helen(Ordnance Survey grid reference from SN 879 118 to SN 927 167 and SN 924 185 to SN 962 242) between 16th November 2001 and 16th November 2006 they want to here from you.

so what is the possition on these sections of sarn helen ..... in dummies terms please so its easy to understand

this is the sections we plan to do on the april wales meet


thanks and sorry to be a pain

Those sections used to be Road Used as Public path. Under NERC Act 2006 these will be default have been converted to Restricted Byways unless one of the 5 exceptions to loss of vehicular rights can be proven - this is what th ecollecting of user evidence is seeking to do.

 

[Terranosaurus]

i think im already a member of trailwise.... i looked a few times but it might as well have been written in french ... sadly i didnt understand it,
maybe we could organise a meet in wales to learn about it.

to be honest they do look like they could be usefull tools if i could understand them.
is there a rep in our area for glass.
im interested and i expect others will be if we sorted a meet to have ,like a lesson on how it all works.

could pay in the long run:nenau

How have you got accss to Trailwise if you are not a member of one of the bodies? Do you not mean Wayfinder which is a totally different thing but in some ways just as valid.

Think you nee to go along to a show and speak to one of the GLASS team, they usually have internet acess and can show you how to use the trailwise system, iyts not really that difficult - one thing you o need is a grid square of the lane you are looking for in order to look it up.

 

[extreme-4x4]

what kind of show.?
is there someone local who i can hook up with to learn from,?

so with the sarn can we drive it now or in may or not at all (the bit i showed you )

will the local police help with my inquiries ? or the council ?

honest id like to learn but obviously id want to join a club / body that is helpfull like here ... not like some other forums where its too clicky and up there own bottoms. and dont want you to fit in

 

[lacroupade]

what kind of show.?
is there someone local who i can hook up with to learn from,?

so with the sarn can we drive it now or in may or not at all (the bit i showed you )

will the local police help with my inquiries ? or the council ?

honest id like to learn but obviously id want to join a club / body that is helpfull like here ... not like some other forums where its too clicky and up there own bottoms. and dont want you to fit in

I'm sure Terr will correct me if this is wrong, but if its like the Ridgeway (and it must be if its a BOAT), which was once open for its entire 70 mile length, but is now fully closed in some parts and seasonally closed elsewhere, then just like any other road closure or restriction, it must be appropriately and clearly signed signed. No sign = no closure or restriction.

Just the same as if there is a speed restriction; it has to be properly signed - if it isn't theres no enforcement possible.

 

[extreme-4x4]

definitely no signs there. i saw one once "no motor vehicles" (but didnt look the type the council put up more like one bought from a pound shop) on one section but. someone nicked it :sly:wasntme

 

[lacroupade]

definitely no signs there. i saw one once "no motor vehicles" (but didnt look the type the council put up more like one bought from a pound shop) on one section but. someone nicked it :sly:wasntme

Nope, should be proper Royal Label factory road signage, because its a road, stating the nature of the closure and any timing restrictions . The Ridgeway one has the standard warning signs, saying closed to all vehicular traffic Apl-Oct or just closed to all vehicular traffic. AS I said, the fact its mud and grass means nothing, its a road, so just as you must have tax and insce, they must have proper signage if its a kosher closure/restriction. not a bit of wood on a tree.

However, it might be that your route to and from is a private track or somesuch so you just need to be careful not to pee off the landowner. I'd love to know what the old bill are handing S59s out for up there if indeed they are? It could only be because someone is playing silly buggers on a public footpath or other ROW, or that they have grounds to suspect someone of acting the goat on the Sarn itself (a section 3 Section 59 same as would be issued on a tarmac road, as opposed to a section 34 Section 59 which is for offroad public ROWs (as opposed to BOATs).

 

[Terranosaurus]

As its a Restricted Byway I would say it is most likely not legal to drive it unless GLASS manage to prove that vehicular rights were not extinguished in 2006 by NERC Act.

The only truely definitive answer will come from the council - police will be clueless, its not there job to know the rights of way, however there will be a rights of way officer and deparment at the local council.

A lack of signs does not mean it is legal unless it is definitely a road in the first place. A BOAT needs proper signage up if there is a retriction in place as would any normal road. However other lanes do not require signage. Not all ORPA's have vehicular rights in the first place, some are just footpaths, you don't get No Vehicles signs on the ends of footpaths.

 

[nejones]

Well this thread has moved on a lot today whle i've been out laning for most of it

Terra makes a lot of good points to refute some of the silly posts that have been made.

I have never said that S.F is private, I know full well it is PUBLIC.

I also said that you could check the status of routes you want to drive by going to the local authority offices. Yes you can, and many do use TrailWise/Wayfinder etc but at the end of the day theres no substitute for viewing the definitive map or list of streets in person. Only then can you be 100% certain that its ok to drive somewhere.

I have never said anyone should join GLASS or CRAG although some on here myself included are affiliated to GLASS as a member of the Nissan 4x4 owners club.

All thats needed is education. Where you are legally allowed to drive and where you arent. If you want to be helped and get that knowledge then representatives from both the organisations above will i'm sure be happy to help. And that includes myself.

Theres probably other points to be made too, but really it depends on who really cares about the reputation of Greenlaning/Offroaders/Nissan 4x4 owners club.

If you dont care you'll probably just carry on as you are thats up to you. But if it matters to you then get involved with a local or national group or club that will help you get the knowledge so you can enjoy it legally.

 

[lacroupade]

As its a Restricted Byway I would say it is most likely not legal to drive it unless GLASS manage to prove that vehicular rights were not extinguished in 2006 by NERC Act.

The only truely definitive answer will come from the council - police will be clueless, its not there job to know the rights of way, however there will be a rights of way officer and deparment at the local council.

A lack of signs does not mean it is legal unless it is definitely a road in the first place. A BOAT needs proper signage up if there is a retriction in place as would any normal road. However other lanes do not require signage. Not all ORPA's have vehicular rights in the first place, some are just footpaths, you don't get No Vehicles signs on the ends of footpaths.

I'd completely agree with that Terra; I'd assumed that at least sections of it were BOAT as detailed in the useful stuff you pasted earlier. Its knowing definitively which bits are BOAT and which bits are not thats the key....if you strayed unknowingly on to an RB section, then you could leave yourself open to police action if they chose to be around, but then I guess it would come down to how sensibly and slowly you were driving - thats NOT to sanction misuse, just to underline that driving calmly and safely if in doubt is one way to stay out of trouble.

 

[extreme-4x4]

i do want the education or the chance to learn ... so how do i meet these people in our area... before i join , try before i buy if you like

example :
i wouldnt buy a computer program on how to do nuclear science. cos id have no idea how it works . i did join one body but i didnt understand it and it was not clear to me, i gave up and now im no better off.

lets assume we got a bunch of people who do off roading but clueless, surely it will be good for the 4x4 community to educate them on whats legal and whats not. so how do i get the rep in our area to meet a bunch of people to show them the tools and sign us up ..... thats what reps do isnt it

 

[lacroupade]

i do want the education or the chance to learn ... so how do i meet these people in our area... before i join , try before i buy if you like

example :
i wouldnt buy a computer program on how to do nuclear science. cos id have no idea how it works . i did join one body but i didnt understand it and it was not clear to me, i gave up and now im no better off.

lets assume we got a bunch of people who do off roading but clueless, surely it will be good for the 4x4 community to educate them on whats legal and whats not. so how do i get the rep in our area to meet a bunch of people to show them the tools and sign us up ..... thats what reps do isnt it

Colin I'd be happy to join one of these two organisations and rep them to Team Wales.....I think it would benefit us all round...just not sure whether CRAG or GLASS....

 

[extreme-4x4]

Colin I'd be happy to join one of these two organisations and rep them to Team Wales.....I think it would benefit us all round...just not sure whether CRAG or GLASS....

i got to say your certainly better with computers and mapping than me.and it would be good for team wales for sure .... but i was thinking along the lines of the south wales area as a whole . i bet there are loads wondering about clueless like me if you advertised or put the word about you could fill a pub for one night for a lesson on this stuff . the benefits could be massive.
there are 5 or 6 4x4 clubs very local to me being right on the sarn , they could all benefit from having the right info and


united we stand.... divided .... well you know the rest

anyone want to chase up a rep in our area see what we can do ?

 

[nejones]

Colin I'd be happy to join one of these two organisations and rep them to Team Wales.....I think it would benefit us all round...just not sure whether CRAG or GLASS....

These are the kind of responses I was hoping for.

An internet search may locate local clubs where you may find help such as Glamorgan 4x4, West Wales 4x4, (I think) Bonkas 4x4, and so on. Just dont expect to join and immediately be given all the info on every lane in your area, as Terra said earlier it just dont work like that. People like to get to know you first, have you tag along on a few trips, make a few meets first cause someone has gone to the time and expense of researching the status of each lane before driving it.

As for joining GLASS or CRAG I'm not gonna recommend either. They aren't competitors and there are differences. Obviously GLASS is much bigger in terms of membership so you will probably find more GLASS members in your part of the country than CRAG members.

If you're planning on visiting one of the shows this summer such as at Eastnor Castle on 6th/7th June you'll be able to talk to representatives of both and decide which is best for you. And really £25 or whatever it is to join is nothing really for what you get.

 

[Deleted Member S]

Just to add to what has been posted, if you have a good look on your local/county concils web site there is often a section regaurding the rights of way in that area:thumb2Northumberlands is quite good once you get the hang of it:thumbs but if all else fails & you have a certain lane/s in mind give the council a call/vist to make sure you are allowed on said lane/s then if someone states your not you then have proof you are allowed:thumbs

 

[lacroupade]

aw shucks

I guess it depends on whether these organisations want to educate more widely or to guard the resource they've built up. I can understand anyones reluctance to make a detailed list of routes freely available to the world at large cos every scally in christendom would be giving it what for down them...

NATHAN, two questions, (i) whats the difference between Wayfinder and Trailfinder, has one superceded the other?, and (ii) GLASS or CRAG? I see CRAG membership is cheaper but its remit seems wider (riders and walkers included) and i wondered if that diluted the 4x4 element at all?

Paul

 

[nejones]

As above. Shrops CC have a great internet mapping portal, really useful.
Powys on the other hand is crap.

Just to add, its worth joining or browsing other internet forums such as mudclub or difflock, lruk and lr4x4 as the discussions about ROW often come up there and can be really useful. Also you get to meet people in your area etc.

 

[lacroupade]

As above. Shrops CC have a great internet mapping portal, really useful.
Powys on the other hand is crap.

too fast on the keyboard! can you just cover the Trailfinder/Wayfinder question for me Nat?