SVO

[lacroupade]

Sorry to start a new thread on this but I'm keen to have a go, and things seem to have moved on a little bit from previous posts....

Having done an awful lot of reading on the subject and spoken to several people who have done it, I'm going to have a go at running my later T2 on SVO for a while, so I'm interested in more comments from peeps who've tried it. I've found several sources of clean (i.e.not crap-filled stuff from the local chipper) veg oil that, in bulk (I'm talking 500 litres upwards) costs as little as 45p/litre, and also, if I need it, a switchable pre-heater. Its not cheap at £130 inc shipping, but even at 25/75 oil/diesel it would pay for itself in about eight tankfuls - even faster in summer at higher ratios.

It also seems clear that in summer at least, I could in theory run it on almost 100% SVO as lots of people seem to do quite happily, and the Terrano engine with its old technology and Bosch fuel pump is the best placed powerplant to take advantage - but I'd probably settle for 50/50 max.

I know I've exchanged PMs with a couple of folks on here who are running on SVO but just interested in any other FIRST HAND* experiences....e.g. how often do you check for water in the fuel pump drain, any starting problems etc..etc...

(*i.e.. none of that "my mates cousins aunties best friends vets doctors gardener had a problem running his Ferrari on mazola so don't do it..."-type stuff....

And one interesting snippet for the scientists....some of you will know I have a prediliction for putting acetone in my diesel....around 120ml per fill-up...my neighbour, a retired industrial chemist who used to work for Esso tells me two things....(1) if I add approx 10% water (and like the SVO keep an eye on drain-cock) to the acetone mixer it increases the effect it has on the diesel (he did go all organic chemistry at that point but lost me in about a nano-second), but (2) the effect of acetone is apparently even greater if used in conjunction with SVO as it helps to offset viscosity problems and improve combustion.

Only time will tell.....! :nenau

So thats another plan!

 

[Darwin]

I ran mine on SVO for nearly a year , i still have a brand new veggie oil heater kit around somewhere but never needed it

I used to get corn oil from lidl @ 39p a litre but they stopped doing it :-(

then veggie oil went up and made it pointless.

 

[Deleted account DD]

then veggie oil went up and made it pointless.

Youve obviously got more money to spare than me

Brand new SVO from the likes of Makro or any bulk food warehouse (we have loads our area who will sell to anyone) is around £15 for 20 litres, that is 75p a litre.

Bog standard diesel is 99.9p a litre at best around here. Yes the odd bargain crops up but on a day to day basis thats it.

Therefore you save 25p a litre or in old money 4.54 x 25 = £1.13 a gallon

If a filling station knocked that off, there'd be qeues out of the door

Or put another way on a TII full fill up, 80 x 25p = £20

I put around 4 tankfuls a month through, more if we take the caravan away which means in the svo v's diesel costs I save at least £80 a month.

The only caveats are:

Make sure youre vehicle is compatable.

Dont use it when its well cold unless youve bought a heater kit.

No brainer really :thumbs

 

[Darwin]

Youve obviously got more money to spare than me

Brand new SVO from the likes of Makro or any bulk food warehouse (we have loads our area who will sell to anyone) is around £15 for 20 litres, that is 75p a litre.

Bog standard diesel is 99.9p a litre at best around here. Yes the odd bargain crops up but on a day to day basis thats it.

Therefore you save 25p a litre or in old money 4.54 x 25 = £1.13 a gallon

If a filling station knocked that off, there'd be qeues out of the door

Or put another way on a TII full fill up, 80 x 25p = £20

I put around 4 tankfuls a month through, more if we take the caravan away which means in the svo v's diesel costs I save at least £80 a month.

The only caveats are:

Make sure youre vehicle is compatable.

Dont use it when its well cold unless youve bought a heater kit.

No brainer really :thumbs

Well just looked and tesco are doing a 2 for 1 deal , thats 53p a litre ...
so i will be tanking up this week with SVO

 

[Deleted account DD]

the effect of acetone is apparently even greater if used in conjunction with SVO as it helps to offset viscosity problems and improve combustion.

Only time will tell.....! :nenau

So thats another plan!

I've heard that one too, didnt do chemistry (or did ............badly for a while ) it must make it more volatile and thinner by breaking it down without destroying it. Keep us updated on that one :thumb2

Good luck with your trial run. The only point I would raise about WVO @ 45p a litre is that it will generally (I'm told) have a higher water content than new SVO.

Therefore check the fuel filter more often but having said that I was told SVO produced more water anyway, but when I changed my fuel filter a mechanic relative told me the amount in there was not measurably different to a straight diesel filter change.

I'm reckoning on changing my engine oil every 6-8k and fuel filter 10k, would seem like good practice anyway, I dont know what anyone else thinks.

 

[Deleted account DD]

Well just looked and tesco are doing a 2 for 1 deal , thats 53p a litre ...
so i will be tanking up this week with SVO

Good as, guess where I'll be off to is that the 1 litre bottles?

I can see why a low mileage user wouldnt bother though.

 

[Darwin]

Good as, guess where I'll be off to is that the 1 litre bottles?

I can see why a low mileage user wouldnt bother though.

yes thats the 1L bottles

Any 2 for £2.00 - valid from 25/03/2009 until 21/04/2009 - add 2 for offer

http://www.tesco.com/superstore/product/search.aspx?from=SEARCH&search=vegatable+oil#

 

[Deleted account DD]

yes thats the 1L bottles

Any 2 for £2.00 - valid from 25/03/2009 until 21/04/2009 - add 2 for offer

http://www.tesco.com/superstore/product/search.aspx?from=SEARCH&search=vegatable+oil#

I'm not registered on the tesco site so I cant follow the link but I wouldnt rush to the store, in store theyre £1.06 each or two for £2 no further discounts.Thats still £1 a litre , Makro wins round one against tesco

 

[Darwin]

I'm not registered on the tesco site so I cant follow the link but I wouldnt rush to the store, in store theyre £1.06 each or two for £2 no further discounts.Thats still £1 a litre , Makro wins round one against tesco

sorry I am a f wit

£1.06 for 2 x 1L bottles , 53p a litre

(i copied the wrong link)

 

[lacroupade]

Well this is what I was looking at...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=160327423882

weighs 900 kilos and they can forklift it on to my twin-axle Ifor Williams....I'd just need to decant it into smaller containers to avoid water absorption (which apparently happens if not properly sealed or theres excess air present in the container)......

At approx 5 mls/ltr, the 2500 ltr annual max would give me 12500 miles p.a if used neat - apart from a bit of offroading, a lot of my miles are motorway so don't anticipate too many issues. If I go home to Wales every weekend in it I'm using at least a tankful of fuel per week.....so it would get used alright.

I figure if I rebottle and sell half of it at say 70p/ltr, the 500 ltrs i kept would end up costing me 30p a litre....hmmmm!

 

[lacroupade]

sorry I am a f wit

£1.06 for 2 x 1L bottles , 53p a litre

(i copied the wrong link)

Tesco here I come for experiment No1...

 

[Deleted account DD]

Go for it :thumbs

You'll be able to resell @ 50p - 60p per litre no problem.

 

[Darwin]

This is what I have ....

 

[Deleted account DD]

Tesco here I come for experiment No1...

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it )

 

[lacroupade]

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it )

oh well! still, it might be useful as an experiment as i have only quarter of a tank on at the moment so could sling 3-4 bottles in and see how it goes...

 

[Darwin]

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it )

hmmmm its £2 for 2 now , I either read it wrong or they corrected the mistake

 

[lacroupade]

Darwin, i'll have that gadget as PM'd....the one i looked at was more expensive but had a dual circuit, one for the fuel and another for coolant circulation so that once the engine was warmed up, the coolant would warm the device (and fuel) and you could turn the heater element off...i'll see how this goes before investing in the big boy!

 

[Toolbox]

Some intresting reading,

RING-GUMMING.........

When exposed to heat and oxygen Veggy-Oil will start to break down. It starts to thicken and polymerise and as time goes on, it turns from a sticky brown 'goo' into a hard black Coke/Carbon material. Just take a look at the frying-pan in your favorite Greasy-Spoon!

Any unburned veggy or partially burned veggy hitting the cylinder-walls will find its way to the Piston-Ring grooves on the next upward stroke of the piston. This veggy will collect in the gap behind the rings and the small clearances either side of the ring and piston. As time heat and plenty of oxygen are available, it breaks down and sets solid, sticking the ring in its groove, so it can no longer follow the irregularities of the cylinder-wall and seal the piston, as it was intended.

This ring gumming is slow and progressive, The speed at which it happens is dependent on Many factors The main ones being the temperature of the combustion-chamber and the condition of the injector atomisation, but as it progresses, gets faster and faster, at a weirdly logarithmic rate...

This causes loss of compression pressure gradually over weeks/months of use. which contributes to the secondary effect....Often the slow and progressive slight power loss may not even be noticed, or blamed on other issues, such as blocking filters or the choice of veggy oil or even the weather (No one wants to admit even to themselves there's something nasty growing in the Crank-Case!)....

(A Diesel Engine relies on the fact that when air is compressed, it gets hot, just like the effect noticed when pumping up a bicycle tyre. It depends on this heat for the ignition of the fuel. If for some reason there is a loss of air, say, from leaky rings, the peak temperature attained by the air at the point where the piston is at Top Dead-Centre, A.K.A. Top of the cylinder, the point of maximum compression pressure, the air will be cooler than intended, thus there is a very real danger of incomplete combustion, or even a complete Misfire, where the veggy wont burn at all, Pale bluish or White-Smoke in exhaust and maybe an unsteady engine when idling)

Not all the veggy is burned Particularly when cold, so this just adds to the supply of 'Ring-Glue'

As it progresses, the amounts of unburned veggy in the combustion chamber/cylinder, increase where it will pass to the lubrication oil by the operation of the oil control rings scraping it off the bores. The Oil Scraper/Control rings, being the lowest on the piston are last to be affected, The Top ring, which is the main sealing ring and subject to the full force of combustion pressure is first to go...

(Just as well the Oil-Control ring is last to go, or the engine could have otherwise end up in a runaway condition where it burns all its lube-oil in a minute or two and hits revs the makers would never have dreamed possible...The danger to life when driving a vehicle when this happens is better not even imagined, You CANT SHUT IT DOWN!....although I dont need to imagine it...Its happened many years ago to me....)

This ring gumming is Progressive and Accelerating Process, Thats why its so Insidious!

The Veggy builds up in the engine lube-oil....

There comes a 'Critical Mass' point, (although before this, it can thicken to some extent but without careful testing the amount of contamination cannot really be assessed),- where the Mineral Lube-oil and the Veggy oil are in the right proportions with the normal engine heat and other forces to react to form a polymer, and on that fateful day the engine cools after the 'Critical-Mass' has been reached where the lube-oil will set solid, just like jelly!

-Seen it happen, Very strange stuff is evolved...Same consistancy as Dessert Jelly, with the wobble and shake to boot, but greenish black opaque and covered in a clear yellow thin oily fluid. It has a slight but weird almost linseed/white spirit type smell too....

Next engine start, youll not have any oil pressure, and if not noticed, engine destruction will occur within minutes.....

IF the Lube-Oil is changed, then the risk of Polymerisation is removed....For Now...
The Ring-Gumming continues its destructive course, untill the point that there is insufficient compression to attain combustion at all. The outcome is the engine just will not start, Maybe a tow-start will get it going but it will soon die perminently!

OK, So you keep an eye on the Lube-Oil level....Great, Spiffin, Marvelous!

This will only tell you that incomplete combustion and ring problems have already started, if you see an increase in level....
You could have an engine, maybe not in its first flush of youth or just because of its design, that normally uses a small amount of Lube-Oil anyway, so the slow dilution with veggy will keep pace with its normal oil use....The lube dilution will then not be noticed, or maybe mistaken that the engine is no longer using up its lube-oil....The outcome is inevitable....

 

[lacroupade]

As you say Jeremy, interesting, and in some engines probably true because of the way their fuel pumps, injection systems or combustion work, but from the wide range of stuff I've read there are engine and fuel pump types that are not recommended and types that are...bottom of the list is the Lucas rotary type pump and any common-rail or direct injection diesel.

But the T2 of course has very old-fashioned diesel technology and the top-of-the-list Bosch fuel pump.

My neighbour (the retired industrial chemist) has used vegoil for years - his current Pug estate has done 90k-odd miles on a mix varying from 30-75% vegoil and no problems ever - and he is adamant that provided you maintain viscosity either by mixing or preheating (and he only does the former), there won't be any.

Its like my acetone thing...you'll find plenty of 'experts' out there willing to tell you it will bugger your fuel system and rot all your pipework and seals....well it hasn't done a thing to my older T2 in seven years and 120k miles....so i think i'll proceed with caution but optimism!

 

[lacroupade]

and heres the result of the initial experiment!

Visited Sainsbury first to relieve them of their last two bottles of vegoil (two at £3.06 for three litres)...then on to tescos for another 3 x 3 litre bottles at only £2.93 each. Tank was just under quarter full, so around 18-20 litres..plus 15 litres of vegoil. so roughly 60-40 diesel-vegoil, oh and a splosh of acetone.

went for a spin.

after a few miles, surprised to report:

1. Pulls away a tad more smoothly in lower gears
2. A bit quieter all round.
3. Definitely pulls a bit better in mid-range.

Could all be perception but I honestly don't think so - I used regular roads that I know the trucks performance on.

But heres the rub...if I went to 50-50 ratio in summer at the prices I can bulk buy at, then thats like getting 37.5 mpg on regular price fuel.

so am i prepared to risk it? You bet.