Is he correct?....seems a bit OTT

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PLANK said:
its the same for the stability myth of 4 wheel (twin axle caravans)
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Absolutely incorrect.

The very physics that make them had to manoeuvre that resist unwanted yaw. Tested out that theory many times on many vans over the past 24 years :wink:
 
sorry Dave but in real life towing the down side outways any benefits! and benefits are only marginal!

But for those who like them I think the psychological benefits are probably greater than the actual ones.

We have been through this a lot on here and it is like the mythical benefits of the new hitch stabalisers that are in fact slightly worse than nothing!
 
No way I'm going to enter an argument here but if youre on about twin axles I know I'm right :wink: if youre on about 4wd I dont know hence the initial posting :wink:
 
well I am only basing this on a life time of living in an dealing with caravans and towing them all over the UK with all sorts of vehicles.

Dont get me wrong I am not anti twin axels, it is just a difference like the difference between a LWB or SWB T2 or the size of hammer you choose just different tools for different jobs.

I was merely commentin on the myths that surround twin axel caravans, I have heard them all:

more stable towing - no not realy, if they do bob about a bit less often they are capable of doing it worse.

If one tyre goes down you can keep on going- no I have had blow outs on some big twin axles and beleive me you cant!

The disadvantages include more fuel consumption, more tyre wear, poor manouverability off the vehicle, greater deprecation and odly I have found they tend to leak more often! . maybe as the chasis is a bit stiffer the body gets more twisting. And or course they are heavier.

I think the best comparison I have ever been able to make was a few years ago now when we owner 2 lunars both alsmot exactly the same except one a twin and one a sngle axle, we took it in turns towing each one around with 2 different towing vehicles, and undoubtedly the single as allways handled better on the road it wa also a good examle of if it isnt big and heavy enough to meed two axles dont do it.

As tyres are gettin better, note all now you can get some vans (i.e. transit vans) that will carry as much or more on a single wheel as the older models did on 2!) carvans are likewise getting bigger without the need to resort to 2 axels.

personaly I have on prefference I am not anti one or type or the other, I own both usualy.

But dont get me started on hitch stabilisers now I do openly dislike those!

However I am openly of the opinion that you shouldn't need to use 4x4 for towing on a normal road surface, they are popular for towing larger caravans because of their own greater body weight hence keeping them within the recommended weight guidlines (which also make an alowance of considering the caravan as heavier if it is a twin axle becaue of the extra drag).

I also dont think short runs on hard surfaces should hurt the 4x4 but I allways use tyre of the same brand and model on every wheel and try to keep them in a simmilar stae of wear to minimise the chances of wind up.
 
phew.......I didn't expect that response, however based on 24+ yrs of caravanning and nearly 30yrs of off and on road towing, I can say with some degree of experience that twin axles are undoubtedly more stable. We'll have to agree to disagree on that :lol:

I do agree though that when the average twin axle whatever "goes" it does with style. Probably because of the weight giving more momentum.

One thing I did mean to ask you is where is the evidence to support the assertion that "the mythical benefits of the new hitch stabilisers that are in fact slightly worse than nothing!" ? I'm not a massive fan of the winterhoffs and alko stabs but my engineers head doesn't support your statement as a definitive assertion. (other than after the point of no recovery)

I currently tow a Limousin, it has the Alko hitch 3000 stab (see above) and that electronic thingy which having towed it in very bad conditions I can assure you works supremely as an insurance policy. :smile:
 
someone said to me a month ago i think, they wouldnt even tow a trailer without a stabaliser. something to do with the tail wagging the dog. he was a big lorry driver too

i just nodded as didnt understand a word of it

but i will say... i prefer towing single wheel trailers preferably un braked.
i only tow when i need something collected


i have tried towing a caravan... horrible did not enjoy
 
there was a stufy done by i htink plymouht uni? anyway a link is posted on here some where (not by me by andrewK I think), they concluded by agreeing that these new stabalisers are 'PANTS'
 
I used a bulldog stabilizer for a number of years but took it off because it caused me a lot of trouble. I have noticed no difference...... you must load your caravan properly, and not let your speed increase down hill, and of course, big car small caravan helps.....regards..bri :smile:
 
coudnt agree more, correctly loaded caravan with the right tyre pressures helps no end, whatever you do make sure you have the nose weight towards the heavy end of the appropriate range!
 
I had the front diff go due to a bearing failure will travelling down the motorway,the dealer replaced the diff under warrenty while also saying that he had never heard of this happening before.

Chunky
 
Theres absolutely no doubt a caravan must be loaded and maintained correctly.

But they all reach a point where the rig has zero damping. Usually at a ridiculous high speed but this speed can brought down by unexpected external influences.

Any kind of damping around the 3 different axis helps. an argument commonly put forward is that it will only hide the effects from the driver. Correct to an extent but again it raises the point of zero damping to a far more acceptable level.

They are effectively a physical insurance policy not a neccesity.

The university of Bath has done a lot of research on this and their results based upon physical experiments as well as mathematical modelling make very interesting reading.
 
so i think we have basically got down too:

corectly loaded caravan

correct tyre pressures

safe and sensible driving.

stabiliser as 'insurance' if you preffer, but dont expect it to make up for any lack of judgment in the above three!


Even after that I have found the new 'hitch' type stabilisers to be a pain in day to day use, they require their own grese free ball! this is a pain when you tow several different trailer in a day ( I carry a can of break cleaner ot clean the ball)

They also have a nasty habbit of sticking on the ball and require jiggling back and forth and jumping on the rear end of the tow vehicle to free them. I beleive this is due to the geheral lack of lubrication in the area!

the need to space out the tow ball on many 4x4's as they foul the spare wheel carrier and thus shifting the point at which the caravan pivots further from the axel again decreasing stability. and with new post 98 type approved bars and ballls spacing is not an approved option. Nor is a replacment lever when you tow several different caravans! and trailers!

finaly no 'perceivable' improvement in the towing charectersistics of any given caravan, I have remeoved 3 and replaced with a standard hitch and found no stability loss, but a lot more convienience

University of bath sounds right, I did print a copy some time ago but it is long since lost under the snow of paper work I have to wade through.
 
PLANK said:
so i think we have basically got down too:

corectly loaded caravan

correct tyre pressures

safe and sensible driving.

stabiliser as 'insurance' if you preffer, but dont expect it to make up for any lack of judgment in the above three!
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The first three are blindingly obvious really !!!!!!

I don't think I've ever seen it intelligently or accurately asserted that a stabiliser will in any way make up ground for a lack of competency in the first three.

They are like an insurance policy as in they may assist when unforeseen circumstances and influences take you beyond the potential point of equilibrium (aka no return). Therefore I would sincerely hope your experiments in replacement were 100% fruitless and demonstrated no change at all.

I'm sure they would be a pain swapping from them to greased on a daily basis, fortunately (meant genuinely with no sarcasm) not my problem.

Fouling the spare wheel, yes they do, its a pain complete agreement on that one.

As far as "spacing out" the tow ball mounting, hmmm...I fitted an alko tow ball to the terrano , and it moved the centre of the tow ball back about 2cm if I recall correctly. Even so (and I think mine is a point in case) the centre of the ball still remains further forward than on some other brands of tow bars :lol: Thats still less than the extension of the draw shaft under braking or manouvering which is often a critical time so I dont think we need to worry about the small movement. You could possibly rebalance within the van anyway by moving a 4 pack of Stella a few cm to put the c of g back in front of the axle :wink:

The shape and size of alko compat tow balls in all cases I've come across take into account the extra space needed over and above that usually available from a bog standard towball and require no change to the tow bar structure if it was already a servicable option with a non alko stab hitch.

I'm absolutely convinced there will be exceptions of course but you've only got to go onto a caravanning forum to see the clearance problems on certain combo's with out introducing the joker card of an Alko.

I'd still be grateful if you could point me towards the data that shows:

like the mythical benefits of the new hitch stabalisers that are in fact slightly worse than nothing!
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cheers :wink:
 
I think this has now gone so far it ought to be in a thread of its own to be fair to the original member who posted!


I did write a fairly lengthy response to thsi but it can go on for ever so i will send it via PM and to any one who is interested, if you havent seen it already!

In the mean time think about these two things:

Define of the top of your head what you believe to be 'common sense'

define what you bleive to be the 'data' you hold in such high esteem

it is probably best if we intend to continue to start a new thread
 
PLANK said:
I think this has now gone so far it ought to be in a thread of its own to be fair to the original member who posted!
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Good point. But if you read the thread right through it was me , the original question has been at least partially answered and I really don't mind this developing along any line contributors choose or it be retitled or moved.

Back on subject:

define what you bleive to be the 'data' you hold in such high esteem
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The data as I have already said regarding towing stability or otherwise is via the university of Bath, their massive volume of research is freely available in the public domain and explained very well for us plebs. If you understand mathematical modelling thats also on there.

Their "towing simulator" is also freely available via the Bailey home site.

The data showing that stabilisers do damp down oscillations on all three axis does exist around the place via google et al. Alko of course can direct you to their data explaining that but as they want to sell the item pinch of salt possibly required.

Saves me repeating it over and over :wink:

BUT theres not the same volume of data saying they don't work, particulalry in the context I accept them.

Therefore I'm STILL waiting to be directed towards the article that tells us:

the new hitch stabalisers that are in fact slightly worse than nothing!
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I strongly suspect its an opinion or a bit of internet wisdom thats morphed into a fact somewhere along the line, but if its proven I'll cheerfully accept it, absolutely no problem whatsover. My first request for the source of that was a genuine desire to "read up" and then try to work out why Alko hadn't been up in front of every trading standards group in the UK :lol:

As I said way back I am not particularly a fan of the Alko's and Winterhoffs. I'll accept the Alko as it came standard on my van and may help me out at some time.

Common sense ? its probably either a lead on to a put down 8) or youre about to point out that it isn't that common which many of us already know and people will rely on stabilisers to cover their failings thinking they are the golden bullet etc etc etc. Heard that before and in the context of a peoples lackof understanding debate, absolutely correct. :lol:

What is common sense with the minimum of engineering knowledge is that any friction material on a surface will prevent or reduce movement.

An excellent example of a relatively small amount of friction material working well on extreme forces are car brakes. Ultimately they're designed to stop, if necessary all movement, not just reduce it so they're proportionally bigger to enable that different role but the principle remains the same.
 
back on topic

anyway back to the use of 4wd :smile:
all i can say is that if you feel the need and are confident that it is the right thing to do then use it.
i recall driving a patrol 4.2 lwb with a 36' tri axle trailer loaded almost to the limit with horticultural demo kit and i had to use low box 4wd for a quite bad hill start as it just wouldn't have it in 2h.got out of the junction then i had to pull up to put it back in 2h.
my advise is only use 4wd on tarmac if you have no choice.
 
so once again, what data would satisfy your whishes and how do you definde acceptable data?

and again define common sense as so far you have missed both questions?

I really dont want to get into this here as it would be difficult to answer you without sounding rude, but in a nutshell the scicnce as you percieve it is not as scientific as you think! on this you can choose to beleive me or not as it is something that could fill volumes not threads, the area we are moving into is 'epistemology' and would truly test your understanding of the nature of scientific enquiry as it does mine and as such cast shadows over the 'data' you quote.

In short , thnk about it like this (dont take these examples to literaly they are made up for the purpose of inlustration), lewis hamiltons car millions in development and testing then the real test. Take it round the track and ask his opinon the intuition of a real person in a real situation. or a new medicine, what does it often come down to? " and how do you feel this morning mr Smith?" the intuitive art that is the final fronteer of scieence, to be fair you descriptions all aimed at putting down my point of view don't they just show me it would be virtualy impossible to expand this here wohtout wearing my poor typing fingers out!
 
We always used to be told to keep our hitches greased as it would make for better towing (and reduce wear of course).............
 
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