WJ did not start easily today !!

[macabethiel]

Absolutely Jim.

Must be a weight off your mind knowing it’s back to its reliable old self again.

Too right Jim I was already thinking to get rid & buy a small SUV like the Ford Kuga as our second run about. As I have got older I tend to hope for the best whilst fearing the worst.

MoT due in January it should get through that though it will be due a set of tyres soon.

 

[macabethiel]

Very cold morning today (Thu) instant start.

This is the end of this boring topic- another normal start on a very cold morning!

Vehicle is now on probation for the remainder of the year if it gets through that another year of ownership looks promising. Best option really as market value is not great for diesel 4 x 4 of this age.

Run it until it is beyond economic repair.

 

[macabethiel]

Started geat for two weeks now on the odd day its a no go.

It was too good to last after a couple of weeks of reliable starting she has had two days out of the last five where I have had to use Easy Start or lots of cranking to start when warmish.

I have worked out that when the fuel tank is full she is good as soon as it drops near 2/3 third its problems - there is visible air in the entry & exit pipes in the high pressure pump on the engine.

Local garage have suggested checking the pick up pipe in the fuel tank might have deteriorated or pipework in the tank connection. I have agreed to them dropping the fuel tank to check. They can see it is pulling in air from somewhere.

I am not sure if there is a low pressure fuel pump in the tank but they will check this at the same time. The main high pressure mechanical fuel pump was replaced about 12 months ago as the seals were leaking fuel.

I am minded to just get rid if this does not sort it - 2 years ago I would have replaced all the pipework myself and dropped the tank. It does not have a great value due to age 54 plate. If I put a 12 month MoT on her I think I can probably get around £750 for her on a trade in deal. Not going to her sell myself I just don't want the hassle of an unhappy buyer.

 

[macabethiel]

Jeep WJ update.

Garage did not remove the fuel tank yesterday, just confirmed that when the tank is full there is no air in the fuel lines luckily the short pipes are clear plastic (low pressure pump).

All connections checked for integrity from fuel rail back to the rear of the vehicle where they are hidden by the fuel tank guard and not accessible as they are on the top of the tank.

Charged for the fuel to top it up - no charge for labour / diagnosis too much fuel in tank to remove it this time. Also they will have to remove the tow bar to drop the fuel tank.

Am researching possible access to the top of the fuel tank where the fuel gauge sender & tank feed & return lines are.

Thinking is that the fuel outlet pick up pipe has deteriorated - provisionally booked in again in two weeks so I can use up most of the fuel. Gives me time to decide if I want to spend on her or get rid.

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

good luck, only problem is, how do you run it down, if it won't start when the tank is under 2/3rds full?

 

[solarman216]

Cut top off tank and have look see, but most tank pick up pipe/gauge assemblies are removable from the top anyway , Rick

 

[macabethiel]

good luck, only problem is, how do you run it down, if it won't start when the tank is under 2/3rds full?

I just have to use Easy Start once fully warm it tends to start after some cranking.

Alternative is I have a electric engine oil dipstick tube pump (cigarette lighter plug) from when I used to do my own oil changes - it will pump diesel easily as it's thinner than oil can just fill up the other Jeep or my 20 Litre Jerry Can. Just use my slave battery.

 

[macabethiel]

Cut a hole in the boot floor perhaps ?

Cut top off tank and have look see, but most tank pick up pipe/gauge assemblies are removable from the top anyway , Rick

Yes the pick up pipe is top mounted and is a sort of cylindrical coarse filter with built in fuel gauge.- conflicting views on U-tube as to where to cut.

Most videos are of petrol WK's that have a pump in the tank. On the diesel versions it's not in the same place. One video showed a circular access point near the rear seat upright - can't find the video again - it was under the boot carpet.

Might have to take the boot mat & liner out and check it out for myself - on the video it was shown as having a round sort of perforated outline that you could remove I've been right through my browser history & failed to find it.

Wife said just keep it topped up regularly!!

 

[solarman216]

Yes mate time for boot carpet out and investigate, lot cheaper than a garage, then post pics on here and we will see what the problem is, Rick

 

[macabethiel]

Interesting observation today !!

Well this morning there was a fair frost overnight, fuel tank is still full, she started immediately.

I checked the transparent fuel lines that are connected to the low pressure pump on the engine block as she was idling. Never seen so much air - must be linked to the cold weather.

When i switched the engine off after moving it so it did not block the driveway I tried to re-start - no go as expected due to the air!!

 

[Banshee]

Following this over the past few days and having time to ponder it.

I'm going to say you either have a disintegrated pickup pipe in the tank, or you have a blockage in there.

I suffered a similar problem on my Maverick and it turned out to be conifer needles in the swirl chamber, cleaned it out and all was good again

 

[macabethiel]

Following this over the past few days and having time to ponder it.

I'm going to say you either have a disintegrated pickup pipe in the tank, or you have a blockage in there.

I suffered a similar problem on my Maverick and it turned out to be conifer needles in the swirl chamber, cleaned it out and all was good again

To be fair the Garage think it's the pick up pipe too.
Next job before it goes in is to check all the area above the fuel tank for an access point.

There is a Jeep so called "specialist" out of town who worked on older Jeeps. I did visit him when I first bought the WJ over the rear ARB bushes being noisy. I lost confidence in him when he failed to spot that it had been fitted with a much thicker rear anti-roll bar. He also said in need a new long brake pipe as it was badly corroded - this turned out to be untrue.

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

To be fair the Garage think it's the pick up pipe too.
Next job before it goes in is to check all the area above the fuel tank for an access point.

There is a Jeep so called "specialist" out of town who worked on older Jeeps. I did visit him when I first bought the WJ over the rear ARB bushes being noisy. I lost confidence in him when he failed to spot that it had been fitted with a much thicker rear anti-roll bar. He also said in need a new long brake pipe as it was badly corroded - this turned out to be untrue.

Maybe it was not the brake pipe, but the fuel pipe that was corroded.:lol:lol

 

[macabethiel]

Maybe it was not the brake pipe, but the fuel pipe that was corroded.:lol:lol

I thought he might know the difference - when it's a warm day I'm going to check it myself.

 

[macabethiel]

New train of thought !

Used some Easy Start this morning - started quite easily-lots of visible air in the pipework as previously.

As the issue is so dependent on the ambient temperature - got me thinking. It starts normally once she has reached close to normal running temperature and is good for the rest of the day.

This seems to indicate that once the engine area is warm or hot she stops pulling in the air. My thoughts are that the air must be getting through one of the various seals between bulkhead and the inlet side of the low pressure pump.i.e. somewhere around the engine.

The low pressure pump is mechanical it is mounted at the front of the block-this is where the two small transparent fuel connectors are situated. If air was getting in from the rear of the vehicle near the fuel tank it would take a long time for heat to reach the tank connections - for instance via the exhaust system.

low pressure pump by Macabe Thiele, on Flickr

In the photo you can see the small transparent sections of the fuel pipe there is air visible when the engine is idling in both the inlet and outlet sides of the pump.

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

I know it's not the same, but on my T2, when the aluminium housing for the fuel filter split, I was getting air on just the output port once the engine was running, but on first starting, it was also on the input pipe. Took me a while to work out that the split was where the pipe spur screwwed into the housing, and the air was syphoning back when the engine was off.

On the T2 the fuel filter is seperate to the engine, so engine heat was not such a factor, but after the event I realised it was worse on cold days than hot, and presumed that on hot days everything expanded and sealed up. It was also noticable that once started, it would start again fine, unless parked up for longer periods. On cold days it was a problem after a couple of hours, but on a hot day, it would be fine all day. At first I thought it was glowplug related, so it took a while to get to the bottom of it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[macabethiel]

I know it's not the same, but on my T2, when the aluminium housing for the fuel filter split, I was getting air on just the output port once the engine was running, but on first starting, it was also on the input pipe. Took me a while to work out that the split was where the pipe spur screwwed into the housing, and the air was syphoning back when the engine was off.

On the T2 the fuel filter is seperate to the engine, so engine heat was not such a factor, but after the event I realised it was worse on cold days than hot, and presumed that on hot days everything expanded and sealed up. It was also noticable that once started, it would start again fine, unless parked up for longer periods. On cold days it was a problem after a couple of hours, but on a hot day, it would be fine all day. At first I thought it was glowplug related, so it took a while to get to the bottom of it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

The fuel filter is not in a housing on mine its a fully replaceable type with hoses- problem existed before the filter was replaced. The filter is mounted on the top of the engine towards the back.
503520028 by Macabe Thiele, on Flickr

Apparently there are a number of "O" rings on the various fuel line joints that pass over the top of the engine bay. Like yours letting in air at the union there are a number of places where plastic parts can get brittle there are some sort of clip connectors that have these "O" rings.

Fuel Line Kit by Macabe Thiele, on Flickr




These are the main hoses in the link.

 

[macabethiel]

Poor starting problem I have a Plan! !

Part 1

Have ordered the fuel line kit today it's a genuine Mopar Kit consisting of all three engine bay fuel lines that are non-steel fuel lines on the low pressure side of the system.
With a bit of luck should get the parts in 5 days. It will at least eliminate the front end as a potential source of the air leak.
In the meantime a mate is going to crawl underneath her at the weekend (rain permitting) and check the metal fuel line at the rear part of the vehicle where it goes over the rear axle for any trace of diesel stain / pin holes.

If Part 1 fails then it's as below.
Part2
Enough is enough before she becomes a "Money Pit" get her traded in for a smaller automatic SUV that we can easily alight from in our old age.lol

Any suggestions welcome only two I have thought of so far are:-

Ford Kuga or Nissan X-Trail ?

 

[Banshee]

Fuel Line Kit by Macabe Thiele, on Flickr

These are the main hoses in the link.

I hate those type of fitments, they always seem weaker the more you take them off and on. I remember loosing a little brass collar off one before rendering it useless :doh

 

[macabethiel]

Plastic rubbish!

You are right Banshee they also get brittle with heat & age.

I like a proper metal pipe with unions, olives etc like our old r3mR.