Patrol hesitation

[andrewk]

I seem to have a number of outstanding problems now with my 05 Patrol SVE.

* Westway Nissan still haven't fixed the difflock. It continues to lock when it feels like it. I'll book it in again next week.

* About a month ago, I started getting a bit of blue smoke on the first start from cold and a few seconds chugging afterwards. The smoke clears when the chugging finishes - after about 10 seconds. Glow plugs, I think. Another warranty issue for Westway Nissan. (This is the easy one)

* Just before Easter, the engine started hesitating from time to time (more than enough to be seriously annoying), especially under load. It happens most often when accelerating up hill from about 2000rpm onwards. It tends to improve a bit after it's been running for a while. It starts first time, every time (despite the glow plug problem) and ticks over perfectly. It will also rev smoothly in neutral at any engine speed, without hesitation or misfiring. It usually runs smoothly at small throttle openings in gear when hot.

I first noticed the problem after I had filled up with diesel (at the same petrol station I always use) on the way up to collect our caravan on Good Friday morning. The plan was to hitch up and drive up the M6/M74 and onwards to spend a couple of weeks at Cruachan Farm caravan park on Loch Tay. So, in hope rather than in confidence, we set off to drive the 275 miles from home. It was just about all directly into a gale force northerly in a Patrol with an engine that was mucking about and towing a 1500kg caravan. It wasn't an especially wonderful trip. About half way up, the Patrol seemed to have started running more smoothly and we got there without mishap.

Since then, we've covered about 1500 miles and filled up several times. I've drained the fuel filter, but there wasn't much water in it anyway. The Patrol seemed to be improving and was running much better by the time we came back home. I was convinced that the problem had been bad diesel and that it had all run through and everything was now hunky dory - until last night.

Last night is the first time since we got back home that the we've had a bit of snow and the temperature has fallen below the zero. This morning, the Patrol started mucking about again - hesitating under load, but not so bad or as often as it did on Good Friday. I'm going to book the car back into Westway Nissan next week for them to have a look at the other problems - glow plugs and difflock and I'm thinking I should ask them to look at this too. I'm a tad bothered, though, that they'll just drain the fuel tank, flush the system through and I'll be down about a hundred squids, but they'll not fix the problem.

In my experience, when some problem is first noticed on a car it tends to get worse rather than better - which is why I was pretty sure (until last night) that the problem was mucky diesel rather than a fault - but now I'm not so sure. I'm not totally convinced that I can trust Westway Nissan to fix this (but I pretty much have to let them have a go as its still under warranty) - but I think I need a "Plan B" too. Does anyone know of a good diesel specialist anywhere NE of Manchester?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[CHASTER]

Hi Andrew.
Sounds like you have a great motor which just needs a bit of the right sort of diagnosing that these dealers always say they are so good at. "Any problems Sir---just bring it in---we'll soon sort it out for you"

It seems from the tone of your post that the dealer might be a little reluctant to give you the service that you have every right to expect.

They certainly talk the talk when you're in there to buy but they are sometimes reluctant to perform when it comes to customer satisfaction after the money has changed hands. They often need some very firm and factual talking to and it shouldn't have to be like that. They should fall over just as far backwards to help you as they did when they were selling to you. Still, I don't suppose you need others to say that :wink:
I find nowadays that I have very little patience with many salespersons and their patter. You have every right to insist that they make the car do what they (no doubt) said it would do when they sold it to you.The sooner the better before any "guarantees run out" or any of that sort of nonsense.
I hate these wriggling, fobbing off encounters but have learned to, politely but VERY firmly, insist on them sorting things out until it is as good as they said it was and in a REASONABLE time too---not just at their convenience.
Wishing you well and hope that you keep us posted about your progress.
There's plenty of help on this site, as you know, but it is to be hoped that you don't need it.

PS In my humble opinion you shouldn't even have to be THINKING about seeing a diesel specialist. The seller should be capable of sorting it out and at HIS or HER expense because it seems from what you say that the vehicle just was not "fit for purpose" as trading standards would say.. :evil: You have , no doubt paid a goodly sum for summat that ain't working right and they should see to it. :twisted: :smile:

Hope all this doesn't sound too grumpy---just trying to be supportive. Best wishes, Charles.

 

[Tony]

Hi Andrew
Diesel Bob is in Blackburn This is his web site
http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/index.asp
Hope all ends well.
Tony :smile:

 

[andrewk]

They certainly talk the talk when you're in there to buy but they are sometimes reluctant to perform when it comes to customer satisfaction after the money has changed hands.

I don't think it's reluctance so much as lack of experience. The service people at Westway Nissan in Stockport readily admit that they don't have to do very much fault finding on Patrols. There just aren't that many about. I took it down to Westway Nissan in Oldham for the first time this morning. It's booked in next Tuesday. It's the first time its been to the Oldham branch (I live in Oldham) - but after talking to the workshop manager, I'm pretty confident.

I hate these wriggling, fobbing off encounters but have learned to, politely but VERY firmly, insist on them sorting things out until it is as good as they said it was and in a REASONABLE time too---not just at their convenience.

I haven't really had any fobbing off. They seem well intentioned - just short of experience with Nissan's biggest and finest. :smile:

In my humble opinion you shouldn't even have to be THINKING about seeing a diesel specialist.

Thinking is all I've been doing. The motor is still under warranty.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[andrewk]

Diesel Bob is in Blackburn This is his web site
http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/index.asp Hope all ends well. Tony :smile:

I'm sure it'll be OK in the end. It's still under warranty, so Westway Nissan are going to fix it - no matter how long it takes. :smile:

Diesel Bob in Blackburn? I don't know if it's the same outfit, but a diesel specialist in Blackburn rebuilt a Peugeot 1.9 turbo-diesel for my brother many years ago (I paid for it, partly coz he had no money - and partly because I sold him the motor only weeks before the engine died).

Actually, after looking at his website, I've just gone off "DieselBob". He says this about the Isuzu 3.0TD "Terrible engine! Despite being one of the first common rail diesels it proved to be a dealerships worst nightmare. Often self destructed and very expensive to put right. 3.1 engine was far better." It's a load of garbage - the 3.1TD Is gutless and agricultural by comparison. The 3.0TD engine is great engine, not a terrible one - but its Caterpillar designed injectors did have a habit of failing. These have all been replaced by a new design FOC on recall. Isuzu also paid for engine rebuilds for those that did expire due to injector failure. Apart from the injector failures, the 3.0D is at least as reliable as any other diesel engine. Maybe DieselBob doesn't like them because he was never paid to fix any.

The Trooper I had was totallyreliable. Its 3.0D engine was brilliant and didn't miss a beat in the 100,000 miles I had it for. It was a truly great car. I would have bought another in a flash, had Isuzu still made them - though, it would probably have been a mistake. Despite the "teething" problems I've had with the Patrol, I wouldn't swap it for anything else.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[BIGBADWULF]

sounds like a MAF or overboost problem to me?

take the time to download a version of this document,
I'm sure there was something in it about the problem

follow this link and click on download, black n white or
colour, take your pic!!!


http://patrol4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80051&postcount=12

 

[andrewk]

They reckon that they've had this kind of fault on Xtrails and the cause has usually been the fuel filter. It gets changed anyway at the service. I must admit, it sounds like an odd explanation to me - but it *was* mucking about yesterday and this morning, but is now running perfectly - so just maybe they are right.

It is still running perfectly - better than it has whilst I've owned it. No matter how initially unlikely sounding, it looks like Danny at Westway Nissan was right - changing the fuel filter has cured the hesitation.

It's in again on Monday for them to have a go at sorting the glow plugs and difflock. So far, so good.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[andrewk]

One glow plug was found to be banjaxed - replaced under warranty. The Troll now does cold starts perfectly with no smoke and no chugging.

It's been a week now since the service and fuel filter change. The engine hasn't missed a beat. I'm still not clear why it is that the change in fuel filter fixed the hesitation - but never mind, I've learned something new I think, so that's cool. (NOTE: I'm not using the currently in vogue speeling "kewl" coz I'm an old fart who used the term in the sixites, so I'm allowed to use the original spelling, even if I now don't add the word "man" at the end of the sentence).

We've made a move forward in identifying the cause of the difflock problem. The electrics and vacuum system as far as the actuator on the diff have been proven good. Unfortunately, you cannot remove the actuator from the diff without dismantling the diff itself - so, it's going in again next week on Tuesday for another go ......... watch this space.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[BIGBADWULF]

good to hear its running well now mate

the difflock problem is one i would have thought wont be so
easy. from what i have heard, and what most people say, its
normal!!! i know mine sometimes goes straight in and out, other
times it doesnt :? something about they only lock in on 4 places
and that it as to line up perfectly to do it. that is why swerving from
side to side somtimes helps. i have heard of swapping the solenoids
for ones from landcruisers, not sure how this actually works but
supposedly helps loads? but i wouldn't really be worried about it
at all :wink:

 

[andrewk]

the difflock problem is one i would have thought wont be so easy. from what i have heard, and what most people say, its
normal!!!

I've heard one or two folks say that too. I've also heard folks say differently. Nissan say it's not normal and that it should engage within one one or two rotations of the rear wheels, nearly always.

Danny at Nissan, has the bit between his teeth now and seems determined to produce a result. As it's still under warranty, that's fine with me. It does lock eventually (almost) every time - but sometimes you have to try it several times and drive a fair distance (like 100 yards or more) before it locks. I'm not sure there's a lot of point in having a locker if the odds are that you'll have driven the obstacle that caused you to want to lock the diff in the first place, before it actually locks. :roll:

ARB air lockers work when you want them to. I don't see why Nissan's vacuum locker shouldn't too.

i have heard of swapping the solenoids for ones from landcruisers, not sure how this actually works but supposedly helps loads?

From what I've read on "another forum", the solenoids on the 'Troll are a weakpoint - and I think there's a suggestion in one post that you can get better ones from Pneutech in Melbourne (though that's a tad impractical, given how far we are away from there). As there is very little airflow when the solenoids operate, I suspect that when they do fail, the failure mode is of not shutting fully, rather than of not opening fully - so that suction will be applied to both vacuum lines and hence to both sides of the actuator diaphragm, which could cause erratic locking behaviour. In the case of my 'Troll, we know that isn't the case as Danny has measured the vacuum at the diff end of the vac pipes and has verified that the solenoids are opening and closing (fully) as they should.

It now can only be either a sticky actuator or something binding in the diff when it shouldn't. I s'pose it might also be possible that some loon has put the wrong oil in the diff - but I don't know if that would have the effect I'm seeing. It should be 80W-90 in a diff with the locker but the 'Troll with a LSD uses the much thicker SAE140. Still, that'll come out in the wash next week, as the oil will have to be drained to remove the actuator anyway.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[andrewk]

the difflock problem is one i would have thought wont be so easy. from what i have heard, and what most people say, its
normal!!!

Yep, that's the conclusion we've come to as well. See the difflock thread.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[freddienc29]

just experienced the same hesitation on my troll. extremely reluctant to rev over 2K. gutless. also, the orange engine light has come on. it goes out when you switch engine off and on again and seems to rev freely again but it doesn't last. does the patrol have a safe mode to stop engine over revving when there is a problem? according to manual it could be water in fuel, NATS or engine malfunction. worryingly, there seems to be some dirty oil sprayed against the bulkhead behind the intercooler. just spent a grand getting it through MOT (shockers, exhaust, suspension drop links)

any advice for a worried owner ?

 

[andrewk]

just experienced the same hesitation on my troll. extremely reluctant to rev over 2K. gutless. also, the orange engine light has come on

IIRC, the owners handbook says something about draining water from the fuel filter if that light comes on (I think it's that one - but I don't have access to the handbook at the moment - the 'Troll is up on a ramp with the back axle & diff in bits). A new fuel filter for mine is about £18 +VAT for a genuine Nissan one. The guys at Nissan, Oldham reckon that changing it at each service is a good idea, no matter what the book says.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[freddienc29]

thanks andrew, will try that first.

out of interest, i know Cruachan park well. stayed there as a visitor and now i i live locally!

cheers

 

[andrewk]

i know Cruachan park well. stayed there as a visitor and now i i live locally!

Lovely area. I wish I lived locally to Killin. Still, you can always hope.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[freddienc29]

ok, quick update.

have ordered fuel filter from arnold clark nissan in stirling (£18.32 + VAT).

have a nissan service manual on cd i bought off the net which clearly shows how to remove and replace filter. so far so good.

however, to bleed the system it refers me to a section on the disc with hundreds of pages and i can't find how to do it!

Sorry to be dense, but any advice ?

 

[andrewk]

ok, quick update.

have ordered fuel filter from arnold clark nissan in stirling (£18.32 + VAT).
have a nissan service manual on cd i bought off the net which clearly shows how to remove and replace filter. so far so good.
however, to bleed the system it refers me to a section on the disc with hundreds of pages and i can't find how to do it!
Sorry to be dense, but any advice ?

If it's like the fuel filter I have, the priming pump thingie is on the top of the filter housing - you just push it down a few times until it gets harder to press.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[freddienc29]

thanks andrew.

will give that a go at weekend

 

[freddienc29]

ok, stuffed now.

changed filter no problems and cleaned drain assembly up while i was at it.

however, i can't bleed the air from the system. i've pumped the primer a billion times and it just doesn't get any harder. tried removing line between filter and injectors (left side of filter?) without success.

so, brand new, OEM, water-free filter fitted and now car won't start. What am i doing wrong ?

 

[andrewk]

The process for changing the air filter and bleeding the fuel system, from the workshop manual is as follows ........


REPLACING FUEL FILTER
1. Disconnect harness connector and drain fuel.
2. Remove fuel filter using band-type filter wrench. Remove fuel filter and fuel filter sensor.
3. Wipe clean fuel filter mounting surface on fuel filter bracket and
smear a little fuel on rubber seal of fuel filter.
4. Screw fuel filter on until a slight resistance is felt, then tighten
an additional more than 2/3 of a turn.
5. Install fuel filter sensor to new fuel filter.
6. Bleed air from fuel line. Refer to Bleeding Fuel System in EC section.
7. Start engine and check for leaks.


AIR BLEEDING (copied from section EC)
Pump the priming pump to bleed air.
+ When air is bled completely, the pumping of the priming
pump suddenly becomes heavy. Stop operation at that
time.
+ If it is difficult to bleed air by the pumping of the priming
pump (the pumping of the priming pump does not
become heavy), disconnect the fuel supply hose
between the fuel filter and the injection pump. Then, perform
the operation described above, and make sure that
fuel comes out. (Use a pan, etc. so as not to spill fuel.
Do not let fuel get on engine and other parts.)

I hope this helps.

Cheers
Andrew