Let's have a chat about steering...

[Daveluck]

Right then, my tyres are again fubared because something is out of whack and I've scrubbed in the inside of the tyres. My tracking seems to last somewhere in the region of 3-6 months before it needs doing again.

This can't be right can it?

Frankly, this is starting to get expensive and I need to get it sorted.

The car will wander over to to the right if I let it do its own thing. To drive in a straight line I have to pull the steering wheel down to the left.

The guy that does my adjusting and tyres has said previously he thinks the car " may" and I stress may, have been in an accident as the adjusting is now to its limit. At the time I let that go because it was all too hard in Spanish but now I've got a bit more under my belt so as to speak I'll push him a lot harder when I visit him next.

Anyway, I have been crawling around underneath this car now for over 5 years and I'm buggered if I can find ANY evidence of damage underneath to chassis, steering components or suspension and I've had a real good look too.

So the Nissan manual states that the standard distance between the 2 centers of the track rod is 287mm.

When I checked the track rods the one on the passengers side( your drivers side) is according to my measurements absolutely spot on this. The other side isn't. It's at 275mm.

Now I get that these need to be adjusted over time due to wear and tear etc but does that sound excessive?

When I checked the balljoints as best I can and I can hear / see no play.

The truck has done less than 100K KMs and 99% of that on metalled roads and for the last 60K KMs has been driven by us so not abused or thrashed.

There doesn't seem too much free play in the steering but sometimes the truck does appear to wallow. Not alarmingly but enough to make me think that she is wallowing and then its back to normal. Now I could be imaging that because I'm worried about the steering!

What do you think I need to be looking at?

All the best, Dave

 

[Daveluck]

Forgot to add

When I was replacing the engine mounts I noticed that the rear bush of the compression rod was not sitting in its cup. The rubber was slighlty off center and part of the bush was hanging over the edge of the cup.

I took the bush off and as I could see no cracks / splits or crazing, turned it around and tightened everything up. The bush now sits as intended in the centre of the cup.

Is it possible that where the cup was not fitting flush this could have changed the geometry as if the car had a shunt?

I know I need to go back and get the alignment checked again but I would like to make sure I've checked and where needed / possible adjusted things so as to make the next professional alignment the last! ) or at least to last longer the 3-6 months)

 

[macabethiel]

Inner edge scrubbing - excessive toe out.

There are a number of issues that your post raises as does the comments from your garage.

Not sure if you are the only driver but it is quite easy to knock out tracking without probably realising it. Dropping off a kerb with a fair amount of lock on the steering hitting a pothole etc etc.

If you are having to get the tracking adjusted regularly assuming the body work underneath is sound I would consider the following.

1) has anyone ever applied heat to your track rods to adjust them as they were seized - this might have made them less resistant to road forces & impact under normal driving ?

2) Are the two track rods original Nissan ones or have they been replaced at some time with an unknown brand?

3) Are there any other steering joints between track rods and steering box that might have been bent at some time. (My Terrano was rack & pinion so am not familiar with your steering links /idler arms on yours.)

I would start by fitting a pair of Genuine Nissan Track rods or at the very least high quality aftermarket ones such as Blueprint. If your vehicle has had an accident in the past does it show any signs of crabbing when viewed by a following vehicle are rear tyres scrubbing to confirm this suspicion?

As for steering wander to the left or right unless it is severe in my experience this is usually down to road camber and/or the fact that many manufacturers do not have identical camber angles but are designed with different angles for LHD & RHD vehicles. Added to that once tyres have been in place for a while with misaligned steering then this causes adverse wear on the tyres that can make them pull even when a fault has been rectified. Consider a daignonal front to rear wheel change once it has been re-tracked.

Lastly what rubber parts on the suspension might be worn due to the vehicle being over 10 years old. On my Terrano r3mR I had to replace all the rear suspension rubber bushes as I have also had to do on my Jeep. If you have front track control arms these can move about as the rubber/metalistic bushes wear. Due to the weight on the suspension it can take a lot of leverage with a bar to find worn bushes. Hope this helps.

 

[rustic]

I can't really add to the above detailed post, other than ride height. If the torsion bars have sagged, or you have increased the ride height then this will affect the geometry.

Having read all the posts, to me it looks like excessive wear, I assume the wheel bearing are adjusted correctly, the bushes on the suspension arms do wear, and often sit non central in their cup washers.

You could replace all the suspension bushes to eliminate that one.

There are many member who go to the limits with their trucks on a regular basis, they will wear out most parts than us regular road users. No doubt they will offer more advice.

Rustic

 

[Daveluck]

Blimey, I'll grab a cup of coffee and digest...

Thank you very much!

A couple of response you.

Apart from the engine mounts the truck is, as far as I'm aware, factory fresh with all the suspension parts Nissan.

The rear tyres show no abnormal wear.

I've got some front brake discs turning up shortly so I'll get back on axle stands and have another good poke around.

Cheers!

 

[Mav96]

My last 2 sets of front tyres have worn more on the inside edge, which according to chat is quite common. my tracking is fine not sure about the Toe in ? it was reccomended to go to a garage with the latest equipment for complete wheel alignment & setup. It has also been reported on here that some or a lot of garages do not know how to correctly do alignment on our trucks :nenau personally I havent a clue at this time.

 

[Banshee]

Things I would check;

Tie Rod Ends
Drag Link Joints
Idler Arm Bushing
Compression Rod Bushes

If in doubt replace the lot and get it tracked and you'll be right as rain again :thumb2

 

[perelaar]

My 1997 T2 did more or less the same, the compression rod bushes were completely worn and rotted. I have replaced them, but as the cups were damaged as well the problem will most likely return.

If I can get hold of someone with welding equipment I'll have new cups installed next time.

 

[macabethiel]

The flat hand test - no tools necessary.

As has been said you can get some edge wear even when the geometry is OK.
I use a very old fashioned test on all my vehicles that my late Father taught me. He was in the motor trade for 50 years doing his apprenticeship at Rolls Royce working on Bentleys.

If you hold the palm of your hand so the fingers are together and with the thumb tucked in so your hand is an extension of your forearm and is as flat as possible this is your testing tool.

If you push your hand from the outside edge of the tyre across the width of the tyre towards the inner wheel arch until the end of your hand starts to leave the far edge of the tyre can you feel any "File Effect" from the tread?

Then when you draw your hand back towards you keeping the palm on the tyre tread can you feel any "File Effect".

If the answer to either of these is "Yes I can feel the File Effect" then you have an issue with your tracking geometry.

If you then hold the palm of your hand flat against the tread width and then move it clockwise and then anti-clockwise following the circumference of the tyre you will often feel some "File Effect" due to acceleration and braking effects. A choppy feel usually indicates worn shock absorbers or frequently driving on poor road surfaces.

By the "File Effect" I mean if you have a normal flat steel file you will notice that when you drag a finger across the width one way it will be smooth in the other direction it will be feel a grain effect and feel rough on your fingers due to the cutting face of the file.

This test can't be used on brand new tyres until they have done a couple of hundred miles or so as the tread can be irregular to the feel due to the tyre manufacturing techniques.

 

[Daveluck]

Ok, put the new discs on today. I did have some play in the bearings. So these have been stripped, checked for damage, repacked with grease and refitted.

With the wheels out of the way I've been able to have a good butchers and a play around, I've crowbarred, pushed, pulled and squeezed just about every ball joint and poked every bush but I cannot see or feel anything untoward.

The the wheels back on and took it for a quick spin and really paid attention to what was going on.

Still no good.

There seems to be a moving dead spot in the steering where there is just no control. One minute I just need to nudge the wheel to get a response the next it's like I'm driving an old bus and I need to ( rapidly!!!) feed the steering wheel round until it firms up again.

I had an MOT a couple of days ago and nothing was picked up which I would have thought if the joints etc were that bad Id of at least got an advisory?

As an aside, when the car was jacked up I spun the wheel and I noticed that the front prop was turning. Should it do that when in 2wd?

I have taken notice of your comments re replacing things but right now I'm a bit loathe to start blindly swapping bits out - it's not that I'm tight it's just that I haven't got the spare funds to be speculative. God! That sounds awful and ungrateful. I'm really, really not!

I've run my hand over the tyres and can feel no raspiness.

Waiting in hope of a miracle

Dave

 

[Blocky10]

Yes everything from wheel to transfer box will rotate when you spin a front wheel as it's fixed hubs. Normal on newer trucks.
I have no info on tyre wear though. I had the same issue wearing the outside edge. I then fitted a set of alloys fitted with mud tyres for the Wales meet last year and they're still going strong? :nenau
No sign of wear on these but not recommended unless you wear earplugs. :augie

 

[Daveluck]

A bit more spurious information.

On fairly level ground.....the height to the bottom of the front wheel arch differs by about 30mm and there is a perceptible lean. When I checked the height from the floor to the bottom of the lower arm the heights were the same each side.

Is there something higher up above the lower arm that sets the height?

The back is within tolerance there was only a 5mm difference.

Would this affect anything??

 

[elty001]

Something definitely doesn't sound right.
If there was any play in any of the steering ball joints it should have been picked up on the mot.
As the steering set up has 6 ball joints a little in each can add up to a lot of play.

 

[Daveluck]

Something definitely doesn't sound right.
If there was any play in any of the steering ball joints it should have been picked up on the mot.
As the steering set up has 6 ball joints a little in each can add up to a lot of play.

Ok I've just been out and and done a quick measure.

With the steering in straight ahead and measuring from the outer edge of the wheel I have

Left hand down = 40mm play
Right Hand down = 20mm play

The shaft into the steering box turns straight away, there is a bit of a wait then a clonk in the steering box, then the steering arm begins to turn.

Is this starting to sound a bit like steering box preload adjustment required?

Can this be done insitu?

So many questions!

 

[solarman216]

Ok I've just been out and and done a quick measure.

With the steering in straight ahead and measuring from the outer edge of the wheel I have

Left hand down = 40mm play
Right Hand down = 20mm play

The shaft into the steering box turns straight away, there is a bit of a wait then a clonk in the steering box, then the steering arm begins to turn.

Is this starting to sound a bit like steering box preload adjustment required?

Can this be done insitu?

So many questions!

Yes it can but your play sounds excessive, I really cannot remember if it is right or left to turn the adjuster on top of the box but to do it you MUST drop the ball joint on the box arm and only adjust in the straight ahead position till you have no play on the drop arm if you cannot achieve no play then the box is no good, but I hasten to add this will not the reason your tyres are wearing badly, this could be more to do with the 30mm difference between sides so your torsion bars need adjusting, Rick

 

[Daveluck]

Yes it can but your play sounds excessive, I really cannot remember if it is right or left to turn the adjuster on top of the box but to do it you MUST drop the ball joint on the box arm and only adjust in the straight ahead position till you have no play on the drop arm if you cannot achieve no play then the box is no good, but I hasten to add this will not the reason your tyres are wearing badly, this could be more to do with the 30mm difference between sides so your torsion bars need adjusting, Rick

Excellent! It looks like we are making progress. ( Maybe...)

Is it possible to drop the arm off the ball joint by just removing that ball joint only or is it more of a strip down to give a bit more room? I'll need to order in a seperator.

As I mentioned previously there is a difference between the lengths of tie bars. The one that is shorter than than recommended ( according to the service manual ) is on the side that is lower assuming the correct height should be 805mm.

I'll need to read up on adjusting the torsion bars. Not sure I really understand what they do. No, actually scrub that. I don't know what they do.

If I manage to even out the front height do you think I should then adjust the tie bar to nearer the baseline length and then visit the tyre place and realign?

 

[solarman216]

Excellent! It looks like we are making progress. ( Maybe...)

Is it possible to drop the arm off the ball joint by just removing that ball joint only or is it more of a strip down to give a bit more room? I'll need to order in a seperator.

As I mentioned previously there is a difference between the lengths of tie bars. The one that is shorter than than recommended ( according to the service manual ) is on the side that is lower assuming the correct height should be 805mm.

I'll need to read up on adjusting the torsion bars. Not sure I really understand what they do. No, actually scrub that. I don't know what they do.

If I manage to even out the front height do you think I should then adjust the tie bar to nearer the baseline length and then visit the tyre place and realign?

OK so who knows who has had a go at your truck in the past so once you have dropped the ball joint from the box drop arm you need to look at the plastic cover where the steering shaft joins the box it has a datum mark that should be vertical in the straight ahead position if the steering wheel is not in the straight ahead then this coupling needs re positioning so that it is, now adjust the box if you can, then you need to look at the front wheels if tracked correctly the ball joint taper should be spot on for fitting to the drop arm if not both track rods need adjusting to bring it into line maintaining your tracking, ie one turn of the OS rod = one turn of the NS until it lines up, re torsion bars they control the height of the front suspension and is adjustable both sides independently, look under the motor follow the bars back to the X member halfway along the gearbox, you will see two long bolts for adjustment, Rick

 

[Daveluck]

OK so who knows who has had a go at your truck in the past so once you have dropped the ball joint from the box drop arm you need to look at the plastic cover where the steering shaft joins the box it has a datum mark that should be vertical in the straight ahead position if the steering wheel is not in the straight ahead then this coupling needs re positioning so that it is, now adjust the box if you can, then you need to look at the front wheels if tracked correctly the ball joint taper should be spot on for fitting to the drop arm if not both track rods need adjusting to bring it into line maintaining your tracking, ie one turn of the OS rod = one turn of the NS until it lines up, re torsion bars they control the height of the front suspension and is adjustable both sides independently, look under the motor follow the bars back to the X member halfway along the gearbox, you will see two long bolts for adjustment, Rick

Cheers Rick!

Should I raise the truck to take the weight off the wheels or do this with the wheels on the ground?

 

[solarman216]

Cheers Rick!

Should I raise the truck to take the weight off the wheels or do this with the wheels on the ground?

To adjust TBars lots easier with wheels off the ground once adjusted go for a spin to settle it all down then check heights, Rick

 

[Daveluck]

Ok, I've got some bits and bobs on order. One of which is a puller/seperator for the joint. When it turns up I'll crack on and post an update.

Thanks for all the help and ideas so far. Really appreciated!