Knackered Starter Motor???

[Banshee]

Ok so last night I decided to replace my fuel filter and upon refitting it and priming it etc I started the car, was probably pushing my luck as I had quite rich mix of vegetable oil in there for the time of year.

I started to crank the car over and it wouldn't start, starter was turning over normally but guessed that the engine wasn't getting enough fuel, primed it some more but still wouldn't turn over, I tried to turn it over for that long that I completely drained my battery killing that off in the process

I went to BatteryBay this morning in Cannock, they tested my battery and said it was reading full but was only showing 25-27% overall health so I decided to buy a new one anyway, went for this one in the end;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150810834742?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Fitted it when I got home and the car still wouldn't fire

My mate came round with his recover van and we managed to get it started in the end with his industrial jump leads car started but was really weird, the starter sounded really strange and turned over but was still struggling but was "whirring" when it did fire up :S convinced that the batter just didn't have enough cranking power I decided to let the car run for a while and let the alternator charge up the battery, I got the multimeter out and the battery was in fact reading 14v, I let the car stand running on the drive for 15-20 mins and then drove 30 mins down to Solihull, got to my girlfriends house turned the engine off. Tried to turn the engine back on again and it was as if the battery was flat really really sluggish starter again, turned it off, turned it over again sluggish wouldn't start, left it a minute, turned it over again and it started first time but got a really loud whirring sound again :S

I rang James (terranobreakershropshire) and he said that it def sounded like a dodgy starter, I have a problem as well whereby when I brought the car the positive wire that come up from the starter motor and attaches to the batter was taped onto the spade connector that it had snapped off from, I've been meaning to get this sorted for a long time and even tried to find a new terminal that was big enough to accomodate the cable however all the terminals I came across were too small, I started a thread somewhere on it.

I don't think this is the issue though as I have physically held the wire onto the positive terminal of the battery and it's still the same and it's been working fine since I've had the car attached with insulation tape tightly on it, however I would like to get this sorted while I'm fixing the starter motor, any ideas of what I can do?

Is it going to be easier to run a new cable from the battery terminal to the starter independently or does the alternator run from the same cable? I'll try and get some pictures of the situation in there when I've got some daylight.

Can you offer me some advice guys?

Thanks

 

[Banshee]

Ok so it wasn't a thread on the terminal itself, I actually suspected the starter when this happened last time but the symptoms are def different this time

http://www.nissan4x4ownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16581

This shows how the cable is attached to the terminal at the moment though

 

[96terrano]

If it sounds like this its fooked, also draws stupid amps too:doh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YVHzrnnyJA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Should sound like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfjTcH0h_vM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

The battery connection could still be your main problem. When wires are properly crimped, it makes what is called a "Gas tight" joint, which stops the wire from oxidising where ever it is crushed against the ferral. It is the oxidisation that creates a high resistance join, which becomes very noticeable at the sort of currents a starter motor draws.

Anything that basically crushes the clean wire hard against it, is a gas tight joint.

When my battery terminal packed up, I went to Halfrauds and was extorted out of my hard earned money for a new bolt on battery terminal that went directly onto the end of the cable, rather than needing any form of crimped on terminal. This then snapped when I tightened it up on the battery terminal, so I took it back and got a silver coloured "ICE" terminal instead, which had the ability to not only attach the stripped end of the main battery wire, but also extra smaller holes to attach the other wires which also run across to the terminal of the T2.

This is not exactly the same as mine, but pretty similar..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Positive-battery-terminal-/111006430269?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item19d87fb43d

A lot cheaper and easier than replacing the whole cable.

 

[Banshee]

If it sounds like this its fooked, also draws stupid amps too:doh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YVHzrnnyJA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Should sound like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfjTcH0h_vM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Doesn't quite sound that bad but there is def a strange noise coming from it

The battery connection could still be your main problem. When wires are properly crimped, it makes what is called a "Gas tight" joint, which stops the wire from oxidising where ever it is crushed against the ferral. It is the oxidisation that creates a high resistance join, which becomes very noticeable at the sort of currents a starter motor draws.

Anything that basically crushes the clean wire hard against it, is a gas tight joint.

When my battery terminal packed up, I went to Halfrauds and was extorted out of my hard earned money for a new bolt on battery terminal that went directly onto the end of the cable, rather than needing any form of crimped on terminal. This then snapped when I tightened it up on the battery terminal, so I took it back and got a silver coloured "ICE" terminal instead, which had the ability to not only attach the stripped end of the main battery wire, but also extra smaller holes to attach the other wires which also run across to the terminal of the T2.

This is not exactly the same as mine, but pretty similar..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Positive-battery-terminal-/111006430269?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item19d87fb43d

A lot cheaper and easier than replacing the whole cable.

I think I kind of know what you mean about that, I have noticed on occasions that when the tape has come kind of loose it does start to spark and smoke a little bit until it's re adjusted.

The more I think about it the more I think it could just be that connection :/ the terminal I'm using at the moment is one of these;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Batte...5?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item4840b48295

But the big hole that you can thread a cable into and secure with the 2 screws is still too small to get the wire into , my mate told me that I should trim the wire down a little but I don't want to do that as I'm sure it's that diameter for a reason!!!

I suppose it could explain why sometimes it will fire and other times it wont!!

This may be a cheaper and easier fix than I first thought

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

The one you got, was a bit like the first one I got from Halfrauds, that broke..

Definitely do not trim the wire down, find a meatier clamp, and if you have to, open the hole up.

 

[Banshee]

Tried it attached to the battery terminal using a heavy duty spring loaded clamp when I got home and still no luck, I put my phone in the engine bay and recorded the sound

Take a listen and see if it helps :S

 

[rustic]

Sounds like it won't start.:doh


I would say that not enough current is going through the motor.
Caused by:

Not enough umph in the battery. Improved by jump starting.
Voltage drop between the battery and the starter motor, this can either be on the positive or negative earth connection. No change when jump starting.

Starter motor engages but then can't produce the power to turn the motor.
It does help to press the clutch down whilst starting.

You need to check the security of each connection starting at the positive side of the battery, following the cable to the motor, and the earth from the engine to the body, and the body to the negative side of the battery.

Only a fraction of an ohm resistance at any connection will create a large voltage drop. Ohms law V = I x R so you multiply the resistance in ohms by the current, which might be 4-500 amps., and you can see that the resistance is multiplied by 500 times, thus creating a voltage drop, proportional to the poor contact resistance.

Using thin battery and starter cables increases the resistance of the circuit thus creates their own voltage drop too.
Hence the advice not to reduce the cable size in any way.
Clean up ALL terminals and their connections, use vaseline to prevent corrosion on the connections.

Since you are only starting with 12 volts, and when starting, the battery voltage could drop to 9 volts, then you need as many volts as you can get.
Without the volts, you won't get the current, and since power in Watts = Volts x Amps you can quickly see that if the voltage is low, the current will be low and the overall power depends on both of these being as large as possible.
This results in there not being enough energy to turn the starter motor.


Hope this helps in your quest to solve the problem.

best regards,

Richard (Rustic).

 

[Banshee]

Sounds like it won't start.:doh


I would say that not enough current is going through the motor.
Caused by:

Not enough umph in the battery. Improved by jump starting.
Voltage drop between the battery and the starter motor, this can either be on the positive or negative earth connection. No change when jump starting.

Starter motor engages but then can't produce the power to turn the motor.
It does help to press the clutch down whilst starting.

You need to check the security of each connection starting at the positive side of the battery, following the cable to the motor, and the earth from the engine to the body, and the body to the negative side of the battery.

Only a fraction of an ohm resistance at any connection will create a large voltage drop. Ohms law V = I x R so you multiply the resistance in ohms by the current, which might be 4-500 amps., and you can see that the resistance is multiplied by 500 times, thus creating a voltage drop, proportional to the poor contact resistance.

Using thin battery and starter cables increases the resistance of the circuit thus creates their own voltage drop too.
Hence the advice not to reduce the cable size in any way.
Clean up ALL terminals and their connections, use vaseline to prevent corrosion on the connections.

Since you are only starting with 12 volts, and when starting, the battery voltage could drop to 9 volts, then you need as many volts as you can get.
Without the volts, you won't get the current, and since power in Watts = Volts x Amps you can quickly see that if the voltage is low, the current will be low and the overall power depends on both of these being as large as possible.
This results in there not being enough energy to turn the starter motor.


Hope this helps in your quest to solve the problem.

best regards,

Richard (Rustic).

I'll have to check all of the connections tomorrow, are they easy to trace or are the a bit of a pain to get to?

I'm going to replace my negative terminal as it's the original one that came with the car and it doesn't look to healthy and at the same time I'm going to try and get a new ring terminal for the starter motor but I'm not sure which one to get :/ can anyone help?

I have a terminal similar to this;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Heavy-Dut...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19caa4d9e5

I was thinking of something like this for the starter cable;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_n...ing+terminal&_osacat=0&_from=R40&LH_PrefLoc=2

Which one would be suitable? If any?

I've tried clutch down and it doesn't help either and I can't image that its the battery as it's brand spanking new and had 1-2 hours of charging from the alternator yesterday and has been holding the charge well.

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

as far as the starter motor ring is concerned, do you have the crimping device to put it on? If not, you will need to solder it on, which requires a meaty soldering iron, or gun.

If you do not have either of the above, to be honest, I would look for a new lead, with the correct fittings already in place, and replace the whole thing.

As for the earth lead, well worth replacing, there is a thing called "black lead corrosion" where the negative wire literally breaks up and turns to dust over time. I had one that the ends were fine, but when I stripped the insulation off, it was literally like a blackish/greenish crud at the centre of the lead.

A reasonable way to test if it is the earth lead is, if you have good quality jump leads, to disconnect the negative lead from the battery, and then put your jumper lead from the battery terminal to a solid unpainted bit of the engine, making sure it makes a good contact.

You could also do the same with the starter motor, but do not disconnect the battery lead this time, just put the jump lead onto the positive clamp, and climb under the car and stick the other end on the starter motor terminal (You can measure the stud size while you are under there for the new lead)

 

[rustic]

as far as the starter motor ring is concerned, do you have the crimping device to put it on? If not, you will need to solder it on, which requires a meaty soldering iron, or gun.

I have done many of the soldered ring crimps, as seen in screwfix, with a small gas blow lamp, flux and solder.
Pretend you are soldering plumbing fittings, but too much heat melts the cable insulation.

For the smaller 16 mm2 terminals I have used one of those pencil type refillable blow lamp, about the size of a marker pen. Brilliant.

Let the solder cool naturally after soldering it, and DON'T move it, and don't blow it or force cool it.
Leave it for say 5 minutes.
You can then use self amalgamating tape ( from screwfix) over the crimp/ cable and it then looks like a professional job.


best regards,

Rustic

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

I have done many of the soldered ring crimps, as seen in screwfix, with a small gas blow lamp, flux and solder.
Pretend you are soldering plumbing fittings, but too much heat melts the cable insulation.

For the smaller 16 mm2 terminals I have used one of those pencil type refillable blow lamp, about the size of a marker pen. Brilliant.

Let the solder cool naturally after soldering it, and DON'T move it, and don't blow it or force cool it.
Leave it for say 5 minutes.
You can then use self amalgamating tape ( from screwfix) over the crimp/ cable and it then looks like a professional job.


best regards,

Rustic

The thing is, it is easy to do that, as long as you have a good ability in soldering. I did my large ones on the gas stove and used Heatshrink, instead of tape, but you have to be careful not to get it too hot, or the solder boils off, rather than flowing nicely into the join.

I have a Weller temp controlled soldering station, and a Weller gun as well, and the ones I did for the second battery, I used both of them to get the heat into the cable and fixture, but that was also because I was doing it outside with the leads in situ, so did not fancy the blow torch that close to my engine bay.:lol

 

[Banshee]

as far as the starter motor ring is concerned, do you have the crimping device to put it on? If not, you will need to solder it on, which requires a meaty soldering iron, or gun.

Where can I get one of those tools from?

If you do not have either of the above, to be honest, I would look for a new lead, with the correct fittings already in place, and replace the whole thing.

What rating wire would I need for the starter and for the negative if this turns out to be the issue?

A reasonable way to test if it is the earth lead is, if you have good quality jump leads, to disconnect the negative lead from the battery, and then put your jumper lead from the battery terminal to a solid unpainted bit of the engine, making sure it makes a good contact.

I'll borrow a set off my mate tomorrow at work and test that actually, it's a good test!!! Anywhere in particular where I should be looking for a good earth?

You could also do the same with the starter motor, but do not disconnect the battery lead this time, just put the jump lead onto the positive clamp, and climb under the car and stick the other end on the starter motor terminal (You can measure the stud size while you are under there for the new lead)

Fantastic advice, I suppose that takes the wiring out of the equation after running these tests, I don't really think the battery could be to blame however I suppose it would hurt testing another one then if all else fails it must be the starter

I have done many of the soldered ring crimps, as seen in screwfix, with a small gas blow lamp, flux and solder.
Pretend you are soldering plumbing fittings, but too much heat melts the cable insulation.

For the smaller 16 mm2 terminals I have used one of those pencil type refillable blow lamp, about the size of a marker pen. Brilliant.

Let the solder cool naturally after soldering it, and DON'T move it, and don't blow it or force cool it.
Leave it for say 5 minutes.
You can then use self amalgamating tape ( from screwfix) over the crimp/ cable and it then looks like a professional job.

I don't really fancy soldering, where can i get the crimping tool from?

 

[rustic]

Re crimp tool, Screwfix do them... Very expensive.

CPC Farnell should do them too.
Also Vehicle wiring products.

You can buy premade leads up to your required lengths and terminals.

OR if you find one the right length, but not thick enough, then double them up.:thumbs

best regards,


Rustic

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Where can I get one of those tools from?

I don't really fancy soldering, where can i get the crimping tool from?

This is the sort of thing you are looking for... The problem is, for a one off job, it will be a lot cheaper to just buy the pre-made lead..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CRIMPING-TOOL-NETWORK-CRIMPER-CABLE-CUTTER-TOOL-HAND-TOOL-CRIMPER-6-50-mm-/320858928896?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item4ab4aeb700

You will need to have a rough idea how long the lead is, I have not had any reason to check mine out yet, so don't know, but there are loads on Ebay to give you an idea on price..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=starter+motor+lead+170a&_sacat=0&_odkw=starter+motor+lead&_osacat=0&_from=R40

Most motor factors will do them as well. Go for the largest diameter cable you can get, for the reasons already mentioned.

 

[Banshee]

Re crimp tool, Screwfix do them... Very expensive.

CPC Farnell should do them too.
Also Vehicle wiring products.

You can buy premade leads up to your required lengths and terminals.

OR if you find one the right length, but not thick enough, then double them up.:thumbs

best regards,


Rustic

Think I might get me a pre-made one to be honest, how many amps will the starter motor draw?

I'm thinking of buying a few of these different lengths and replacing them all

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290845646374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Would that be suitable for the starter?

 

[Banshee]

Think I might get me a pre-made one to be honest, how many amps will the starter motor draw?

I'm thinking of buying a few of these different lengths and replacing them all

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290845646374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Would that be suitable for the starter?

My next question is, doesn't the alternator utilise the same cable as the starter cable? How will I separate the two?

 

[Banshee]

Ok, so I've had a moment of madness and decided that when I got dropped off earlier on by my girlfriend I was going to get the car on axle stands in the dark and have a crack on the car :lol:lol

I've tried the jump leads straight onto the positive terminal for the starter, checked all the earths etc and it was still no different, really sluggish to turn over, I started to wonder if the engine was seized but that surely couldn't be the case as it tow starts so that answer was out of the window.

I decided to try and remove the starter motor by removing the two bolts that hold it on and pulling it forward away from the engine so the teeth weren't in contact, turned it over and voila!!! It started to whir away and spin but I don't know what that really proves as it might just be spinning as there was no resistance against the engine but when attached again it was the same story sluggish and wouldn't turn over so I'm now thinking that the starter has just become lazy, I was going to try and remove it totally but I was really struggling to remove the positive terminal from the starter with a 13mm spanner as the terminal was just spinning with the nut

I've already taken the driver side wheel off and was working from inside the wheel arch and also from the top of the engine bay but I still couldn't free it!!! What's the best angle of attack and technique to get these bad boys off?

Seeing as I had to put it back on, I'm going to try another battery tomorrow as well before I finally bite the bullet and replace the starter, I'm also going to fit the new negative battery terminal tomorrow and also try and source a new cable with pre fitted ring terminals for when I do eventually get the terminal off the starter

Thanks Guys

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

You are right about taking it out and spinning it over not really proving much.. In order to get the power needed, starter motors have 2 or more sets of windings powered up at any one time, but will happily turn over with only one set of windings, if they are not stalled by a big old engine... in fact in the old days it was common to disconnect one set of winding when using starter motors for "Heath Robinson" jobs they were not designed for where you did not need quite that much torque. Purely as a guess, I would say you have burnt out one of the sets of brushes.

The spinning terminal could well also be a problem, it shouldn't spin, as generally it has a wire fixed to the inside of it...

Normally there should be a nut both sides of the wire terminal ring, one holding the starter motor terminal in place, and the second pinching the lead up against the first. To take it off, you should hold the first one with a thin spanner, and rotate the second.

Some bodge merchants, instead of getting a second nut, take the first nut off, and put the lead under it, which is fine when everything is shiny and new, but then you end up with the problem you are having when you try and get it off.

If I was you, since you are going to change the battery lead anyway, and probably the starter motor, I would pull your starter motor out with the lead still attached, so you can work on it, in an easier place. You may need to either cut a slot in the end of the terminal, so you can hold it with a screw driver, or cut the nut off.

 

[Banshee]

You are right about taking it out and spinning it over not really proving much.. In order to get the power needed, starter motors have 2 or more sets of windings powered up at any one time, but will happily turn over with only one set of windings, if they are not stalled by a big old engine... in fact in the old days it was common to disconnect one set of winding when using starter motors for "Heath Robinson" jobs they were not designed for where you did not need quite that much torque. Purely as a guess, I would say you have burnt out one of the sets of brushes.

The spinning terminal could well also be a problem, it shouldn't spin, as generally it has a wire fixed to the inside of it...

Normally there should be a nut both sides of the wire terminal ring, one holding the starter motor terminal in place, and the second pinching the lead up against the first. To take it off, you should hold the first one with a thin spanner, and rotate the second.

Some bodge merchants, instead of getting a second nut, take the first nut off, and put the lead under it, which is fine when everything is shiny and new, but then you end up with the problem you are having when you try and get it off.

If I was you, since you are going to change the battery lead anyway, and probably the starter motor, I would pull your starter motor out with the lead still attached, so you can work on it, in an easier place. You may need to either cut a slot in the end of the terminal, so you can hold it with a screw driver, or cut the nut off.

Easier said than done!!! I have so little space to work with at the moment , I'm literally working cross legged inside the wheel arch, the starter doesn't even pull out totally just enough to disengage the teeth. Is there an easier way of getting to it? To take the nut out that's closest to the passengers side I felt like a contortionist!!!!

I'll try and get some pics up tonight when I'm home, I finish at 4pm so it's going to be a mad cycle home to make the most of the daylight :bow

I'm going to try and keep the cable intact for now until I can source another battery to try and just in case I want to do any more diagnostics

Is it advisable to source a new starter or to try and get mine repaired? Plus if I do manage to get it off, when it's opened up will it be easy enough to see if it is in fact to blame?

Does anyone know of any decent starter motor repairers in the midlands?