Gross Weight Question

[cncfabs]

If that wasnt the case it means towing an empty trailer of around 1000kgs with a vehicle capable of towing 2800kgs is completely illegal and I cannot see that being the case some how.

yes this is illegal see this link to the ifor williams website

http://www.iwt.co.uk/customer-care/faq-categories/1358

If you want to tow 3500kg buy a fourtrak i did!

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.

so if i have a vehicle weight either 1850 or a 85% match of 1850 they will downrate a trailer weighing 1500k empty (bear on mind the empty weight of the trialer is a fixed thing in all of this) to suit my requirements? i.e a gross weight of 1850?

fantastic, now all i would need is anorexic horses, to not overdo the 300k payload :lol :lol

 

[cncfabs]

so if i have a vehicle weight either 1850 or a 85% match of 1850 they will downrate a trailer weighing 1500k empty (bear on mind the empty weight of the trialer is a fixed thing in all of this) to suit my requirements? i.e a gross weight of 1850?

fantastic, now all i would need is anorexic horses, to not overdo the 300k payload :lol :lol

If youre towing a trailer that weighs 1500kg empty then you are going to need a fourtrak or range rover to pull it unless you part ex the horses for dogs :lol

 

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

plank the 85% is only a recommendation.

what is being said i believe is mr williams will down rate the mam(GVW) of the trailer to the
max towing weight of truck.

oh and max towing weight of a vehicle I recall is based onits ability to restart the train
on a 1 in 8 incline uphill. the mam of a trailer can subject to this be more than the
kerb weight(unladen) or gvw though rarely is for the latter. it tends to be equal.

 

[Deleted account DD]

If youre towing a trailer that weighs 1500kg empty then you are going to need a fourtrak or range rover to pull it

Or a jeep :augie

 

[vatco]

I find this a little hard to believe...

My understanding is based on the in-depth explination given to me by my instructor immediately after passing my B+E test last September.
He explained it that you can legally tow up to the weight given by the manufacturer for the vehicle. Eg - Diahatsu gave a max towing weight for the 4Trak of 3500kgs, but the vehicle actually weighs far less than that we'll say for example 2500kgs. I asked about the rule of "tug must be heavier than trailer" which he claimed was just a government recommendation and not law???
He explained that if the manufacturers weight was 3500kgs, this figure is worked out from the cars weight, gearing, stopping and tractive powers and deemed safe. Therefore the above vehicle could be 2500kgs+3500kgs trailer giving a gross train weight of 6000kgs and still legal. (But not recommended)

The Terrano has a max tow weight of 2800kgs, and the Ifor Williams trailer may be plated 3500kgs gross. My understanding is that the Terrano can tow the trailer legally untill a gross trailer weight of 2800kgs is achieved, any more and the load would become illegal.
If that wasnt the case it means towing an empty trailer of around 1000kgs with a vehicle capable of towing 2800kgs is completely illegal and I cannot see that being the case some how.
I paid to do my B+E because I was regulally towing trailers outside of my license and wanted to become legal. I also exlained this to the instructor who attempted to make the rules clear to me as I often tow very heavy Rolls-Royces and other vintage cars which weigh a lot... Hope he explained it correctly as I tow to his rules :nenau

First let me say that I wasn't there when your instructor gave you this explanation. It is possible that you miss-understood, hearing what you needed to hear so tht you could go about your business. But I also say this:-
9 out of 10 people that we have purchase a trailer from us that have been through the 'Trailer Test' we have to re-train in order to make them safe towing restored trailer caravans often worth in excess of £30k.
Most of them have little idea of how to load a trailer correctly for balance; they have little idea of how to reverse a trailer properly; they know very little about trailer safety. And most have the road sense of a rutting toad.

By the same instance a lot of folk that pass their driving test can't drive they have just been taught how to pass their test.

Sorry I don't wish to insult new Drivers or drivers that have just passed their TT and I am sure that most folk on here don't fit that description.

Now lets get back to the law

It is written on the DVLA web site - it is very clear

There are fuller descriptions on .gov but you need a degree in motoring law to understand the correct interpretation.

NTTA website has a good description of the law as it applies to tin tent pullers and this will give a good idea of how to interprate the law for other tuggers.

Vehicle construction and use is also a good source of information if you wanna go in depth on your tugs abilities.

If the law allowed, as some believe, you to pull a trailer of say MAM=3500kgs behind a vehicle that was not capable of taking the full possible weight of that trailer then the law would also have to allow a car driver to drive a 7500kgs truck because empty it only weighed 3500kgs.

It would also mean that a every vehicle (private or commercial) that was carrying a load of any sort on the public highway when pulled for a check would have to be weighed.

No this doesn’t make sense
Your legalities for loads are set on what is possible not what is actual for the equipment you are using.
Commercial OP's will know that you can have any vehicle re-plated for a lesser weight under certain circumstances. I used to have a 9 ton truck down plated by MOT to 7.5. I have had busses re-assessed for conversion to Motor Homes...........Trailers are no different; A manu can plate a trailer for the maximum load it is to carry and most manu's will do so on purchase. This is perfectly7 legal and correct.

It also has to be said that, agree or not, law's are passed often because of a necessity. A lot of the time driving laws are upgraded or changed because of the constantly growing number of idiotic drivers behavior and lack of responsibility on the road.


How many times have you seen tin tenters with overloaded or wrongly balanced trailers?

How many times have you followed a trailer and watched it wagging it's tail?

How many times have you seen a driver unable to reverse a load that is trailerised? (lack of proper control)

How many accidents with trailers are caused by lack of maintenance?

I could go on

I often tow 'illegal' loads..............there are laws to govern that as well.
Laws that allow me to have a train length of over 60ft; laws that allow me to tug 'overweight' or 'overwide' etc

There are even laws that allows me to drive a vehicle for which I do not hold a license

And, as far as trailer laws are concerned it really PISSES ME OFF that every few years the law comes down even harder because of the few idiots that don't or won't comply
The next proposed batch is the private trailer MOT..............As far as our procedures are concerned it makes little difference as we will never pass a trailer on to a customer that is unsafe for the road and we will never let a customer leave here with a rig that is not up to it. We even do our best to make sure that the driver is competent with the outfit he has just purchased. But the infrastructure that will need to be in place for these regulations will cost us BIG TIME and that is a cost that we will have difficulty passing on to the customer

Unfortunately, these laws are becoming essential

Sorry folk. I'll get down off my soapbox now.

But like it or not; you cannot legally tow a trailer plated @ 3500kgs behind a truck that is rated @ 2800kgs. Loaded or not. Furthermore I know of no 4x4 in this country (unless specially adapted) that can legally tow a load in excess of 3500kgs (see special construction and use of motor vehicles) But I see many doing so

But then again why would you need to? There are plenty vehicles that can legally tow these weights. We have 2............they are called medium duty vehicles............small trucks. Like a 5.5 ton Dodge and a 7.5 ton Merc

 

[Muckypup]

First let me say that I wasn't there when your instructor gave you this explanation. It is possible that you miss-understood, hearing what you needed to hear so tht you could go about your business. But I also say this:-
9 out of 10 people that we have purchase a trailer from us that have been through the 'Trailer Test' we have to re-train in order to make them safe towing restored trailer caravans often worth in excess of £30k.
Most of them have little idea of how to load a trailer correctly for balance; they have little idea of how to reverse a trailer properly; they know very little about trailer safety. And most have the road sense of a rutting toad.

By the same instance a lot of folk that pass their driving test can't drive they have just been taught how to pass their test.

Sorry I don't wish to insult new Drivers or drivers that have just passed their TT and I am sure that most folk on here don't fit that description.

Now lets get back to the law

It is written on the DVLA web site - it is very clear

There are fuller descriptions on .gov but you need a degree in motoring law to understand the correct interpretation.

NTTA website has a good description of the law as it applies to tin tent pullers and this will give a good idea of how to interprate the law for other tuggers.

Vehicle construction and use is also a good source of information if you wanna go in depth on your tugs abilities.

If the law allowed, as some believe, you to pull a trailer of say MAM=3500kgs behind a vehicle that was not capable of taking the full possible weight of that trailer then the law would also have to allow a car driver to drive a 7500kgs truck because empty it only weighed 3500kgs.

It would also mean that a every vehicle (private or commercial) that was carrying a load of any sort on the public highway when pulled for a check would have to be weighed.

No this doesn’t make sense
Your legalities for loads are set on what is possible not what is actual for the equipment you are using.
Commercial OP's will know that you can have any vehicle re-plated for a lesser weight under certain circumstances. I used to have a 9 ton truck down plated by MOT to 7.5. I have had busses re-assessed for conversion to Motor Homes...........Trailers are no different; A manu can plate a trailer for the maximum load it is to carry and most manu's will do so on purchase. This is perfectly7 legal and correct.

It also has to be said that, agree or not, law's are passed often because of a necessity. A lot of the time driving laws are upgraded or changed because of the constantly growing number of idiotic drivers behavior and lack of responsibility on the road.


How many times have you seen tin tenters with overloaded or wrongly balanced trailers?

How many times have you followed a trailer and watched it wagging it's tail?

How many times have you seen a driver unable to reverse a load that is trailerised? (lack of proper control)

How many accidents with trailers are caused by lack of maintenance?

I could go on

I often tow 'illegal' loads..............there are laws to govern that as well.
Laws that allow me to have a train length of over 60ft; laws that allow me to tug 'overweight' or 'overwide' etc

There are even laws that allows me to drive a vehicle for which I do not hold a license

And, as far as trailer laws are concerned it really PISSES ME OFF that every few years the law comes down even harder because of the few idiots that don't or won't comply
The next proposed batch is the private trailer MOT..............As far as our procedures are concerned it makes little difference as we will never pass a trailer on to a customer that is unsafe for the road and we will never let a customer leave here with a rig that is not up to it. We even do our best to make sure that the driver is competent with the outfit he has just purchased. But the infrastructure that will need to be in place for these regulations will cost us BIG TIME and that is a cost that we will have difficulty passing on to the customer

Unfortunately, these laws are becoming essential

Sorry folk. I'll get down off my soapbox now.

But like it or not; you cannot legally tow a trailer plated @ 3500kgs behind a truck that is rated @ 2800kgs. Loaded or not. Furthermore I know of no 4x4 in this country (unless specially adapted) that can legally tow a load in excess of 3500kgs (see special construction and use of motor vehicles) But I see many doing so

But then again why would you need to? There are plenty vehicles that can legally tow these weights. We have 2............they are called medium duty vehicles............small trucks. Like a 5.5 ton Dodge and a 7.5 ton Merc

Thanks for the explination. I will consider myself told and will act on the information given above in future :augie

Just a thought, if this all boils down to a plate on the trailer what if the plate dissappears? whilst there are no tests required for a trailer surely maintaining items such as the chassis plate cannot be enforced. I may be going down the wrong road here but if im towing a 3500kgs trailer with a car rated to 2800kgs, but there is no plate saying 3500kgs how can I be overloaded? If Ifor Williams can down plate the same trailers then how is any governing body going to enforce these rules when the same trailer could be any weight and there is no MOT or reg document for the trailer enforcing the plates...

Basically the whole law is a farce, the rules are very patchy and full of "grey areas". Even with the trailer plates, you can make a home-made trailer and tow it, I see them everyday. Bet theres no "official" plate on those... I even know of a single axle car trailer someone made from a caravan chassis.

With the introduction of a trailer MOT I can see the above problems instantly solved, but until then there will always be "grey areas".

 

[lacroupade]

Sorry I don't wish to insult new Drivers or drivers that have just passed their TT and I am sure that most folk on here don't fit that description.

Why not, its arrogance or cockiness about our own capability or knowledge thats the usual problem isn't it - I can remember learning my biggest lesson about load balancing the very hard way years ago when I thought I already knew it all.

Borrowed a mates car and trailer and drove my half-restored Beetle on to it.

Nose first.

Don't even need to tell you the rest of the story do I!

But nobody is immune IMHO, we are learning every day of our lives. :thumbs

 

[vatco]

Thanks for the explination. I will consider myself told and will act on the information given above in future :augie

Sorry but............

Just a thought, if this all boils down to a plate on the trailer what if the plate dissappears? whilst there are no tests required for a trailer surely maintaining items such as the chassis plate cannot be enforced. I may be going down the wrong road here but if im towing a 3500kgs trailer with a car rated to 2800kgs, but there is no plate saying 3500kgs how can I be overloaded? If Ifor Williams can down plate the same trailers then how is any governing body going to enforce these rules when the same trailer could be any weight and there is no MOT or reg document for the trailer enforcing the plates...

First it has been law for a while now that ALL trailers must carry a plate. A trailer without that plate is illegal

The unladen wieght sited is just that......The unladen wieght of the trailer

The laden weight takes into account a number of facts but basially it is the maximum weight that the trailer is able to carry safely

You will often see a 'share' rating as well which is the allowable weight on each of the trailers axles

The Old bill, Vosa etc use the maximum wieght of the trailer first to determine if it is possibly illegal. Then if unsure can weigh you

Basically the whole law is a farce, the rules are very patchy and full of "grey areas". Even with the trailer plates, you can make a home-made trailer and tow it, I see them everyday. Bet theres no "official" plate on those... I even know of a single axle car trailer someone made from a caravan chassis.

With the introduction of a trailer MOT I can see the above problems instantly solved, but until then there will always be "grey areas".

There are a lot of 'Grey' areas . No one (including me) said that the law is correct, sensible or enforcible.
But, the fact is that it is the law
It is also open to interpretation...............That is for the courts to decide although they are more likley to side with a plod or a member of VOSA than they are a driver of a rig that has been questioned on a point of safety

If you know and understand what the law is then there are loopholes that you can crawl through on occasion:augie

Again though I will say that no mater what I or anyone else thinks, these laws have been bought in for a very good reason.
I always wince and steer well clear of a man towing sometimes close to 4 tons behind a 4x4 especially as I often see them travelling to close to the car in front; not evenly loaded,; tires looking squished; exceding the speed limit; not taking into account that other drivers may well make mistakes around them and not allow for their load etc.

2800kgs means exactly that. Towing more may be safe but ?

Besides I didn't think that this thread was for an open argument on the rights and wrongs of the law

I thought it had been a question on what was the legal stance.

maybe I was wrong in my assumption?

 

[vatco]

Why not, its arrogance or cockiness about our own capability or knowledge thats the usual problem isn't it - I can remember learning my biggest lesson about load balancing the very hard way years ago when I thought I already knew it all.

Borrowed a mates car and trailer and drove my half-restored Beetle on to it.

Nose first.

Don't even need to tell you the rest of the story do I!

IT WAS U :lol:lol

But nobody is immune IMHO, we are learning every day of our lives. :thumbs

I agree

But

Only some of us

 

[lacroupade]

Besides I didn't think that this thread was for an open argument on the rights and wrongs of the law

I thought it had been a question on what was the legal stance.

maybe I was wrong in my assumption?

I don't think it matters much vatco.....at the end of the day, theres no such thing as a stupid question and our threads ALWAYS meander all over the place and its surprising what pops out sometimes. I found your input is very useful - thanks!:thumb2

 

[vatco]

I don't think it matters much vatco.....at the end of the day, theres no such thing as a stupid question and our threads ALWAYS meander all over the place and its surprising what pops out sometimes. I found your input is very useful - thanks!:thumb2

Oo er my message is too short?

 

[lacroupade]

Oo er my message is too short?

I don't usually have that problem LOL

 

[Muckypup]

Sorry but............



First it has been law for a while now that ALL trailers must carry a plate. A trailer without that plate is illegal

The unladen wieght sited is just that......The unladen wieght of the trailer

The laden weight takes into account a number of facts but basially it is the maximum weight that the trailer is able to carry safely

You will often see a 'share' rating as well which is the allowable weight on each of the trailers axles

The Old bill, Vosa etc use the maximum wieght of the trailer first to determine if it is possibly illegal. Then if unsure can weigh you





There are a lot of 'Grey' areas . No one (including me) said that the law is correct, sensible or enforcible.
But, the fact is that it is the law
It is also open to interpretation...............That is for the courts to decide although they are more likley to side with a plod or a member of VOSA than they are a driver of a rig that has been questioned on a point of safety

If you know and understand what the law is then there are loopholes that you can crawl through on occasion:augie

Again though I will say that no mater what I or anyone else thinks, these laws have been bought in for a very good reason.
I always wince and steer well clear of a man towing sometimes close to 4 tons behind a 4x4 especially as I often see them travelling to close to the car in front; not evenly loaded,; tires looking squished; exceding the speed limit; not taking into account that other drivers may well make mistakes around them and not allow for their load etc.

2800kgs means exactly that. Towing more may be safe but ?

Besides I didn't think that this thread was for an open argument on the rights and wrongs of the law

I thought it had been a question on what was the legal stance.

maybe I was wrong in my assumption?

Thanks for the feedback, on a serious note I will be following your advise and also talking to my B+E instructor as I know him and hes local. Im beginning to wonder if he knows the full extent of the law regarding towing with a 4x4, after all he only needs to know how to make people pass there test to be an instructor and weights are not part of the test...
The number of trailers that are on the road and un-plated must be enormous, there are tons of home made ones around my area including the caravan chassis car transporter down the road. Based on the sheer number i'd have never thought they were illegal, but I suppose ignorance is no excuse.
I also have a smart late 70s small fibre-glass box trailer I use for camping. I know this has no plate, what do I do? Or is it technically "scrap"?

 

[vatco]

I don't usually have that problem LOL

No nor me

Thanks for the feedback, on a serious note I will be following your advise and also talking to my B+E instructor as I know him and hes local. Im beginning to wonder if he knows the full extent of the law regarding towing with a 4x4, after all he only needs to know how to make people pass there test to be an instructor and weights are not part of the test...

Quite pos the case but don't ailianate him. No one likes to be told that their 'expertise' is flawed

Aside:- Definition of an expertX spurt)
'X' = an unknown quantity and 'Spurt' = a drip under pressure :jesterbg

The number of trailers that are on the road and un-plated must be enormous, there are tons of home made ones around my area including the caravan chassis car transporter down the road. Based on the sheer number i'd have never thought they were illegal, but I suppose ignorance is no excuse.

Correct on all counts. + the state of a lot of those trailers makes me cringe

I also have a smart late 70s small fibre-glass box trailer I use for camping. I know this has no plate, what do I do? Or is it technically "scrap"?

No it is not scrap so don't junk it

If you are stopped and pulled you can be GV9'd (and plenty have) Technically without that plate you are not road legal just as with defective lights etc.
Of course you have to be pulled in the first place for that to be seen
But if you look like you are private then you are even less likely to be pulled

This is an even greyer area.
They passed a law stating that all trailers (with exceptions) must cary a wieght plate. However our estemed powers that be never gave a clear and concise route to making older trailers that didn't need a plate at manufacture comply. This is something that I am working on with the authorities at the moment for clarification. Also there is, as yet, no clarity as to who can plate, who can self certify etc.
At the moment we comply by simply atatching a plate to a trailer that we refurbish. There is no law that says we can't and there is no law to say we must be certified for plating a trailer that was not maufactured by us. Only that the axles, hitch gear, chasiss etc must bu suitable for carrying the weight that we specify?????????????????

It's a complete minefield and a total mess

Bit like the electric brake issue............it took us 2 yrs hard work to clarify that one and now, having clarified it, they have decided that it's not good enough and are changing the law........Oooops
However, having been involved on the ground floor we are privey to what the new law is going to be before it is issued.
That has given us a big edge and we now already comply with the new laws as they will be. Indeed we are starting to get trailers that have been GV9'd for conversion already

I hope it will be the same for wieght plating

Now (not that I am touting for business) if you just happened to be in our area and needed a small repair, service etc (cleaning the beer swill out of your light lenses is usually enough :thumbs )And just hppened to have a certified unladen weight cert from a registered weighbridge then I would of course point out the illegal state of you box trailer in the fact that it had no wieght plate and be obliged to supply you with one before allowing you to continue your journey.... If you get my drift. The unladen wieght cert and the axle ratings is enough information to issue a plate and then your trailer complies :thumbs

You could, of course, just find someone local to yourself that could do the same

 

[Muckypup]

No nor me



Quite pos the case but don't ailianate him. No one likes to be told that their 'expertise' is flawed

Aside:- Definition of an expertX spurt)
'X' = an unknown quantity and 'Spurt' = a drip under pressure :jesterbg



Correct on all counts. + the state of a lot of those trailers makes me cringe




No it is not scrap so don't junk it

If you are stopped and pulled you can be GV9'd (and plenty have) Technically without that plate you are not road legal just as with defective lights etc.
Of course you have to be pulled in the first place for that to be seen
But if you look like you are private then you are even less likely to be pulled

This is an even greyer area.
They passed a law stating that all trailers (with exceptions) must cary a wieght plate. However our estemed powers that be never gave a clear and concise route to making older trailers that didn't need a plate at manufacture comply. This is something that I am working on with the authorities at the moment for clarification. Also there is, as yet, no clarity as to who can plate, who can self certify etc.
At the moment we comply by simply atatching a plate to a trailer that we refurbish. There is no law that says we can't and there is no law to say we must be certified for plating a trailer that was not maufactured by us. Only that the axles, hitch gear, chasiss etc must bu suitable for carrying the weight that we specify?????????????????

It's a complete minefield and a total mess

Bit like the electric brake issue............it took us 2 yrs hard work to clarify that one and now, having clarified it, they have decided that it's not good enough and are changing the law........Oooops
However, having been involved on the ground floor we are privey to what the new law is going to be before it is issued.
That has given us a big edge and we now already comply with the new laws as they will be. Indeed we are starting to get trailers that have been GV9'd for conversion already

I hope it will be the same for wieght plating

Now (not that I am touting for business) if you just happened to be in our area and needed a small repair, service etc (cleaning the beer swill out of your light lenses is usually enough :thumbs )And just hppened to have a certified unladen weight cert from a registered weighbridge then I would of course point out the illegal state of you box trailer in the fact that it had no wieght plate and be obliged to supply you with one before allowing you to continue your journey.... If you get my drift. The unladen wieght cert and the axle ratings is enough information to issue a plate and then your trailer complies :thumbs

You could, of course, just find someone local to yourself that could do the same

Thanks, thats very kind of you :thumb2
I plan to give the trailer a clean up and some new wheels and axles. Then I plan to paint it the same colour as my car so I have a nice matching camping trailer. When I do this I will definitely fetch it along for a safety check and service by yourselves and a nice shiney chassis plate :clap
Probably need a new coupling too as I believe it may be the old size and not 50mm:doh

 

[makeitfit]

Thanks, thats very kind of you :thumb2
I plan to give the trailer a clean up and some new wheels and axles. Then I plan to paint it the same colour as my car so I have a nice matching camping trailer. When I do this I will definitely fetch it along for a safety check and service by yourselves and a nice shiney chassis plate :clap
Probably need a new coupling too as I believe it may be the old size and not 50mm:doh

Sounds like a Trigger trailer :lol

 

[vatco]

Thanks, thats very kind of you :thumb2
I plan to give the trailer a clean up and some new wheels and axles. Then I plan to paint it the same colour as my car so I have a nice matching camping trailer. When I do this I will definitely fetch it along for a safety check and service by yourselves and a nice shiney chassis plate :clap
Probably need a new coupling too as I believe it may be the old size and not 50mm:doh

If your date of Manu is correct then it should be a 50mm but new coupling is no prob. We would have to order one in as we don't keep them in stock.......to many types.

PM me if you want more deets

 

[Muckypup]

Sounds like a Trigger trailer :lol

?? Sorry missed that one lol!

I'll have to post a pic, its a cracking little thing and my dad bought it new. Its seen hardly any use. I was playing with the idea of giving it a bit more ground clearance and some chunky tyres so I could use it behind the Samurai on mini-expeditions :lol

 

[vatco]

What is the suspension at the moment?

Is it on leaf springs? If so I may well have an axle that will fit and give you extra ground clearance and bigger wheels

Got to watch the hitch height as well though and the C of G so don't need to go too high if you plan to do a lot of blacktop miles