Gross Weight Question

[(RIP) PLANK]

I know it sounds silly, but it pays to have all the little things in order, good tread on your tyres, all lights working, tax up to date, proper number plate on the trailer etc etc. as its these things that get you stopped in the first place!

and that's when the trouble starts!

 

[Liam]

I know it sounds silly, but it pays to have all the little things in order, good tread on your tyres, all lights working, tax up to date, proper number plate on the trailer etc etc. as its these things that get you stopped in the first place!

and that's when the trouble starts!

Well said but reading these posts one could be forgiven for thinking the UK IS a police state. Luckily,over her with a total police force of less than 15,000 for a population of 4 million, we don't have the manpower to deal with petty traffic offences on a large scale. Remember ,it's a TOTAL police force of less than 15,000 divided by three working shifts equals less than 5,000 minus HQ staff and excluding holidays,sick leave etc. Luck if we have 3,500 on duty at any one time. Dublin alone has a population of 1.5 million.

 

[Muckypup]

My understanding is this...

If you passed your test after Jan 97 you are limited to a maximum trailer weight of 750kgs braked or not. If you want to tow more than that you need B+E.
With B+E licence you can be a maximum train weight of 7 tonnes. IE 3500kgs Tow vehicle, 3500kgs trailer providing the towing vehicle is rated to tow such a weight. Eg a Defender Hi-cap with Ifor Williams trailer can easilly exceed 6 tonnes and still be perfectly legal.
I passed my B+E back in September and the instructor explained the rules very well for me. The full day course including test cost me a bit over £400.00. You need to do some lessons as you'll never pass just going straight for the test, its basically the same as a hgv test and they require you to drive differently to what they teach you for your normal driving test.

 

[Deleted account DD]

reading these posts one could be forgiven for thinking the UK IS a police state.

Dont worry it isnt. The government has given away the powers to everyone else

 

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

My understanding is this...

If you passed your test after Jan 97 you are limited to a maximum trailer weight of 750kgs braked or not. If you want to tow more than that you need B+E.
With B+E licence you can be a maximum train weight of 7 tonnes. IE 3500kgs Tow vehicle, 3500kgs trailer providing the towing vehicle is rated to tow such a weight. Eg a Defender Hi-cap with Ifor Williams trailer can easilly exceed 6 tonnes and still be perfectly legal.
I passed my B+E back in September and the instructor explained the rules very well for me. The full day course including test cost me a bit over £400.00. You need to do some lessons as you'll never pass just going straight for the test, its basically the same as a hgv test and they require you to drive differently to what they teach you for your normal driving test.

close and spot on about test procedures but a staight cat B can tow 750 on top of its
own upto 3500 so 4250 OR a combination where the MAM of the trailer doesnt exceed
the MAM of the tug and combined is less than or equal to 3500.
so a 2 tonne car can tow a 1.5 tonne trailer, but something lumpier like a t2 at say
2.8 MAM or GVW will be limited to 700kg. this is on post 97 licences of course, rest of
us have grandfather rights including the +E trailer and most C1 which is 3500-7500kg
vehicles, and upto 16 seat minibuses, though 9 to 16 seats is limited to non hire and
reward. (D1).

 

[The Patrolman]

The 80% - 85% limit is only a recomendation.
I was told by a trailer manufacturer whom I had build a trailer mounted road side LED display that ran from a hydrogen fuel cell. The Law (which is an ass at best) states that you can tow upto 85% of the tow vehicles weight..............Unless you are experienced at towing you can then tow a trailer that is equal to the weight of the tow vehicle!!! WTF.. so if pulled over and asked if you are experienced just say yes!!

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

The 80% - 85% limit is only a recomendation.
I was told by a trailer manufacturer whom I had build a trailer mounted road side LED display that ran from a hydrogen fuel cell. The Law (which is an ass at best) states that you can tow upto 85% of the tow vehicles weight..............Unless you are experienced at towing you can then tow a trailer that is equal to the weight of the tow vehicle!!! WTF.. so if pulled over and asked if you are experienced just say yes!!

I'm not sure that is the law, as it wouls til make towing most trailer illegal with most vehicles, forget carvans for a minute as they are, as trailers go, disproportionately large and light.

Imagine a large horse box with two large horses?

or a livestock trailer, which i tow regularely with 3 or 4 cows?

triple decks of sheep?

mini digger, or road roller? you see large public bodies do this every day!

another car on a trailer?

you see there are strict laws for towing with commercials, all down to the gross weights and train weights as shown on the plates on the vehicle

but many large live stck trailers are the best part of 1500k empty and have a gross weight of 3500k so they would be illegal to tow with virtualy anything and so no one would make them anymore.

a T2 has a towing capacity of 2850K? so why if it legaly could tow about 1000k less?

my undertanding is that 85% is meraly a giudeline and there is no law, full stop! however ! of course if it appeared to be an issue and looked unsafe then i am sure it would break some law or other.

if there was a law surely it wouldn't be so criptic and would be clearly stated some where for us to read, for example the highway code?

the 85% is a rule,as far as i can tel,l thought up by caravan organisations, for the guidance of members, and protects people against stupid purhase descisions, though i maintain that proper loading and leveling is more important and much neglected. If they had their way and it became law, the rural community would be sorley out of pocket, again!

here are the specs for 2 popular current ifor williams horse trailers:

Model Tyres Gross Weight Unladen Weight Internal Length Internal Width Overall Length Overall Width
HB610 175R16C 3500kg 1450kg 4.25m 2.07m 5.74m 2.30m
HB510XL 175R16C 3500kg 1290kg 4.25m 1.74m 5.76m 2.30m

even if the 100% rule were law, you might as well take them both to the scrap yard today! bear in mind most older trailers are even heavier!

 

[Deleted account DD]

The 80% - 85% limit is only a recomendation.
I was told by a trailer manufacturer whom I had build a trailer mounted road side LED display that ran from a hydrogen fuel cell. The Law (which is an ass at best) states that you can tow upto 85% of the tow vehicles weight..............Unless you are experienced at towing you can then tow a trailer that is equal to the weight of the tow vehicle!!! WTF.. so if pulled over and asked if you are experienced just say yes!!

Sorry you have been completely misinformed. As posted earlier, you can tow any ratio you want so long as you dont exceed the lower or any combo of 3:

1. your vehicle tow rating
2. your trailer capacity
3. your combined weight ie gross train or combined weight whatever terminology is trendy as per the plate if applicable)

The 85% as stated by plank is a guide. "they" whoever they may have been reckoned its at the 85% ratio point is when you may have disproportionate problems getting nose weights sorted and its where a cross wind or speed may make the tail wag the dog :thumb2

 

[Muckypup]

I was on the M62 at Christmas and saw a Rover 216 towing a tandem axle trailer with another Rover 216 on its back, slightly over-loaded methinks...
Oh and there was a Volvo with flashing lights escorting it off the motorway :lol :clap :lol

 

[zippy656]

Blue lights i trust

 

[vatco]

think vatco you'll find limit on a 7.5 tonne licence presume you mean c1 is 8250 with
a +e entitlement as i recall a c1 can tow upto 750 kg so 8250 and a c1+e whilst still
8250 means truck can be less and more trailer.

its possible to take a further test that takes gtw to 12000kg. aimed at 7.5t trucks
pulling a matching trailer. not many of these outfits on road. tbh most ive seen
are from mainland europe.

suspect there are a lot of say 7.5t tippers tugging mini diggers incorrectly without
the enhanced c1+e ticket.

oh and for good measure a c1's 'e' differs in size from a d1(minibus)'s 'e' just like
it does for c(big truck/lgv/former class2 hgv) and d(bus).

you are correct we asked DVLA to clarify this some time ago

Here is the necessary

Medium Sized Vehicles

Category – C1
Minimum age – 18
See note 3

Lorries between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailerup to 750kg.

Medium Sized vehicles with trailers

Category – C1+E
Minimum age – 21
See note 3

Lorries between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer over 750kg - total weight not more than 12000kg (if you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg).

Note 3 Age 18 if combination weight is under 7500kg.

For most but not all that passed a test prior to 1997 C1+E is already on their licence
Anyone passing their test after this date has a whole set of different tests to get to the same point but once you have C1+E no mater haow you achieved it you can drive a truck and trailer with a train weight of upto 12 ton but the towing vehicle cannot exceed 7.5 tons GVW

As you say not two many rigs fit into that catagory but a big truck and an American 5ver often do
In this country you cannot pull a 30ft 5ver on the back of a 1ton Chev pick up like you can in some of the USA (well not legaly anyhow )

A lot of 5th wheel American style RV's are over 2.3mtrs wide and so need a vehicle with a GVW of at least 3501kgs
Also a vehicle of 3500kgs or less can only tow a max length of 7mtrs (approx 22.5ft) + the draw bar and hitch gear.

The 80 - 85% rule is just advisory and nothing else but you cannot tow a trailer that exceeds the GVW of the tug

The only other major gov rule is the vehicle manufacturers max listed weights where they exisit

Category B Licence holdersHowever is a whole different ball game

Motor vehicles with:
A maximum authorised mass (MAM) not over 3,500kg
A maximum of 8 seats (not including the driver's seat)
Trailers being towed by vehicles in this category must either:
Be not more than 750kg MAM - making a maximum authorised Train Weight of 4,250kg
Have a MAM which does not: - exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle
Have a MAM which does not: - Have a train weight exceeding 3,500kg

Drivers of vehicles in this category wishing to tow trailers which do not comply with either of the above conditions must have a B + E entitlement.

So:
In this cat you must not exceed 4250 kgs. That does not mean that if your tug weighs 2 ton you can pull a trailer that is 2250 kgs. Because your trailer weight must not exceed the tugs weight under any conditions
Quotes and figures taken from the NTTA and DVLA websites and personal correspondance from both DVLA and VOSA

 

[neil_mccoll]

So, can someone clarify this (again).
My Troll = 2120kg (I think)
My Van = 895kg (with nothing in it)
I passed my test after 1st Jan 1997
So can I tow without having to do another B+E Test?????

 

[vatco]

Sorry lets try to simplfy it a bit.

First: your maximum weight with the truck and the trailer loaded with whatever you (or the OH) decide to pack into both the truck and the trailer must not exceed 3500 kgs. (This is set because your trailer weighs more than 750Kgs.)

2nd:The MAM of the trailer must not exceed the UNLADEN weight of the truck

You need to know the unladen weight of the truck and the Maximum weight (MAM) of the trailer

To give a definative answer you need ALL the folowing information

Unladen weight of the tow car
Laden weight of the tow car
Manufacturers maximum designed train weight or amximum weight of the trailer you can pull. This last point may or may not exist for your vehicle but if it does exisit then it also has to be taken into account

Maximum permissable laden weight of the trailer.

You cannot hope to wade through these overcomplicated red tape regs without these facts (which is why 'Ol bill is oft confused) and so many folk just hook up and go. It can be a nightmare to work it all out.

It has to be said that for most vehicles the answer is that you can tow almost any single axle caravan behind the average fam saloon but many 4x4's will (stupidly in my opinion) fall foul

So you having asked the question we need to get the correct answer and because of the way the regs are writen you need to know the reasons for that answer lest you ever get a jobsworth on the side of the road

 

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

ok so lets have a look at this one.

assuming you have a B+E ticket.

nice ifor williams trailer gross weight 3500kg. unladen far less.

can it be towed by a terrano with a max trailer weight of 2800
or what ever it is, or is a troll needed that has the 3500 limit.

this is applied on basis that either the trailer is unladen or only
loaded to the 2800 that t2 can tug?

I believe not, anyone care to agree, disagree with reasoning.

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

ok so lets have a look at this one.

assuming you have a B+E ticket.

nice ifor williams trailer gross weight 3500kg. unladen far less.

can it be towed by a terrano with a max trailer weight of 2800
or what ever it is, or is a troll needed that has the 3500 limit.

this is applied on basis that either the trailer is unladen or only
loaded to the 2800 that t2 can tug?

I believe not, anyone care to agree, disagree with reasoning.

i have no reason for this, but! i would tow it with a t2 and in fact have done and will do again, and I see many other people doing the same every day!

 

[cncfabs]

ok so lets have a look at this one.

assuming you have a B+E ticket.

nice ifor williams trailer gross weight 3500kg. unladen far less.

can it be towed by a terrano with a max trailer weight of 2800
or what ever it is, or is a troll needed that has the 3500 limit.

this is applied on basis that either the trailer is unladen or only
loaded to the 2800 that t2 can tug?

I believe not, anyone care to agree, disagree with reasoning.

The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.

 

[vatco]

The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.

Correct. It doesnt mater how much the unladen or part laden weight of the trailer is. It is a 3500kgs trailer.

The T2 can't legaly pull it.

its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts

Not quite. The trailer plate is all important for visual legality but a worried Plod can have you weighed if he thinks you may be overloaded so a trailer that weighs more than 2800 kgs with it's load isstill illeagl behind the T2 no mater what the plate says if you have overloaded. AND ignorance is bliss but no excuse in the eyes of the law

Fact is Plod has far to much to do and far to few to do it with. Hell they can't even enforce easier regs like mobile phone use so they have little chance of effectivly enforcing trailer laws.

However, more and more of this stuff is now being dealt with by VOSA, I was weigh checked recently with the lorry. I had a 51 stepside Chev on the bed and a 22ft Airstrem on the hook. I pulled into a service station and as I pulled in I got copped by VOSA.
"going to a show?" the guy asked me. "private then" he muttered. I just grinned and didn't say oaught.
He should of asked for my Tacho disk but because he assumed I was private he didn't.

He then apologetically stated that he needed to check my weight and rolled me over a set of scales.
Point is, he thought I was private and didn't bother to check. As a private I didn't need Tacho but was still liable for weights etc. If I had been over I would have been Nicked. So watch out. The boys in blue are not the only ones that will pull you now. And if VOSA pull you they have the power to act and Plod has to support them so less chance of talking your way outa it.

 

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

so vatco, was involved in getting me pre 97 c1+e increased from gtw 8250
to 12000. could i use a c1 with my 20' twin axle caravan?

and further can a regular c1+e from pre 97 tow a car on a spec lift as the towd
car is going to be over 750 or is the front end classed as part of wagon's weight
and the train broken up into axle weights. guess be ok if truck is say a 6 tonner
but if 7.5 going to be an issue.

 

[vatco]

so vatco, was involved in getting me pre 97 c1+e increased from gtw 8250
to 12000.

You will need to 'upstage your licence' best to see DVLA upstegaing on their website for that one

could i use a c1 with my 20' twin axle caravan?

It's all about alowable weights

and further can a regular c1+e from pre 97 tow a car on a spec lift as the towd
car is going to be over 750 or is the front end classed as part of wagon's weight
and the train broken up into axle weights. guess be ok if truck is say a 6 tonner
but if 7.5 going to be an issue.

For the purpose of the law then the vehicle on the Spec's becomes a trailer and is subjected to the same regs as any other trailer

Many spec operators are unknowingly breaking the law on this simply because the way the law is writen the trailer is clased on its MAM (or gross vehicle weight) So some of the smaller spec lift trucks can be over wieght depending on the car they have on the frame.

With spec lift trucks you do need to be careful as they are subjected to other laws as well.

for example:

Most folk know that a spec lift, as long as it is classed as a breakdown truck and not a recovery vehicle, is exempt from plating (MOT) however many operators I know use the vehicle for work other than assisting a disabled vehicle (ie a quick trip to the shops, pub or to pick up the sprog from skool) this is illegal.

i sometimes use my Spec lft to go to the pub as well but there is always a busted vehicle in the pub car park :sly

Some breakdown trucks are exempt from tacho laws and some are not etc, etc,

This is an even more grey and confusing area than the trailer laws.

 

[Muckypup]

The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.

I find this a little hard to believe...

My understanding is based on the in-depth explination given to me by my instructor immediately after passing my B+E test last September.
He explained it that you can legally tow up to the weight given by the manufacturer for the vehicle. Eg - Diahatsu gave a max towing weight for the 4Trak of 3500kgs, but the vehicle actually weighs far less than that we'll say for example 2500kgs. I asked about the rule of "tug must be heavier than trailer" which he claimed was just a government recommendation and not law???
He explained that if the manufacturers weight was 3500kgs, this figure is worked out from the cars weight, gearing, stopping and tractive powers and deemed safe. Therefore the above vehicle could be 2500kgs+3500kgs trailer giving a gross train weight of 6000kgs and still legal. (But not recommended)

The Terrano has a max tow weight of 2800kgs, and the Ifor Williams trailer may be plated 3500kgs gross. My understanding is that the Terrano can tow the trailer legally untill a gross trailer weight of 2800kgs is achieved, any more and the load would become illegal.
If that wasnt the case it means towing an empty trailer of around 1000kgs with a vehicle capable of towing 2800kgs is completely illegal and I cannot see that being the case some how.
I paid to do my B+E because I was regulally towing trailers outside of my license and wanted to become legal. I also exlained this to the instructor who attempted to make the rules clear to me as I often tow very heavy Rolls-Royces and other vintage cars which weigh a lot... Hope he explained it correctly as I tow to his rules :nenau