Green lanes under threat

[(RIP) PLANK]

i agree with andrewk we need a clarity of the language we use in order to be taken seriously, and access to green lanes and off road driving are clearly two seperate issues and by using the term off roading we are helping to further the confusioon around the two issues, so maybe as a forst step to collective action we ought to have a glossary of terms with clear defenitions to make decribing things easier, and make us look more professional weh making out points heard.

 

[JonathanM]

The need is greater to educate the recreational 4x4 drivers and prevent illegal usage, and remove the term "off road" from genral use. Means TOR would have to rename itself "Total Unsurfaced RoW" instead.

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

doesn't exactly trip off the tounge now does it :?:

perhaps that is the issue a lack of appropriate words in the language :wink:

 

[andrewk]

doesn't exactly trip off the tounge now does it :?:
perhaps that is the issue a lack of appropriate words in the language :wink:

Most of ToR's wordage is strictly about "offroad" anyway. The suggestion that it's name should be changed was, no doubt, a little tongue in cheek. :smile:

Cheers
Andrew

 

[jace]

i see simularities with fire works with this the laws heading towards organised displays due to health and safety etc sames gonna happen to green lanes push it into the pay an play sites big bonus for them then is they dont have to worry about green lanes just block them off forget about them and gain revenue from tax etc off the pay and play sites!

 

[Deleted Member]

So much for a FREE country!!! :evil:

 

[jace]

think of something you like like green laning and somewhere theyll be a law saying you cant do it! good ol blighty land of the nearly free!

 

[Deleted Member S]

i see simularities with fire works with this the laws heading towards organised displays due to health and safety etc sames gonna happen to green lanes push it into the pay an play sites big bonus for them then is they dont have to worry about green lanes just block them off forget about them and gain revenue from tax etc off the pay and play sites!

The problem is Jace around here well in Alnwick Need4x4 pay & play site has just been forced to close for reasons know one seems to know 8O They had even put in a free jet wash so you could give your motor a clean before going home & to help stop the road outside getting covered in mud :smile:

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

funy but green lanes fell into disuse (i presume) with the advent of the car and more direct routes via surfaced roads.

they lie there covered in weeds and brambles as good as unused and forgotten for a long, long time, then people rediscover them in the overcrowded island and want to make use of them for leisure, or buisiness or whatever.

suddenly everyone is up in arms, claiming their right and point of view is better than anyone elses, I remember ramblers fighting for 'the right to roam, when farmers banned access, an i duported that. In recent years networks of 'elective bridel ways' have opened up ruthering accesss too the coutryside for cyclists and horses.

now if you dont have a hors or bike or are not able to walk well enough to do any of these things does that mean you are effectively banned from hard to reach places in the coutriside, that are now for the 'able bodied only!'

surely the dissability discrimination act could be invoked to protect access to a certain degree?

 

[jace]

thats the way to beat them look for angle like dissability etc beat them at there own beurocratic ways!

 

[JonathanM]

funy but green lanes fell into disuse (i presume) with the advent of the car and more direct routes via surfaced roads.

they lie there covered in weeds and brambles as good as unused and forgotten for a long, long time, then people rediscover them in the overcrowded island and want to make use of them for leisure, or buisiness or whatever.

suddenly everyone is up in arms, claiming their right and point of view is better than anyone elses, I remember ramblers fighting for 'the right to roam, when farmers banned access, an i duported that. In recent years networks of 'elective bridel ways' have opened up ruthering accesss too the coutryside for cyclists and horses.

now if you dont have a hors or bike or are not able to walk well enough to do any of these things does that mean you are effectively banned from hard to reach places in the coutriside, that are now for the 'able bodied only!'

surely the dissability discrimination act could be invoked to protect access to a certain degree?

I'm not sure the DDA as such could be used to support access to the countryside, as the "catch all" within the act focuses on "reasonable adjustment" and the necessary steps to encompass people with diasabilties into all aspects of society. If greenlaning was banned to all, the LA's would argue it isn't discriminatory, everyone is banned!!

Plus if you look at anyone of the RoW access plans that the NP's & LA's seem to love at the moment, there is a lot of work underway in terms of access to the countryside aimed at people with disabilities.


Where I do think the issue can be raised is when responses are needed to applications for TRO's, from individuals who have disabilities or have family members with disabilities who can enjoy greenlaning to access the contryside in a manner that they would not be able to do so.

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

my point was, as you came to later in yours, that vehicular access may be the only opportunity for some people to see some things hence the need for green lanes to remain open for access, and then equality works two ways :wink:

It would be interesting to get the input of an off road / green lane enthusiast who also has limited mobility. It sounds a bit sad trying to cash in on disability but hat isn't my point, rather that the need for green lanes is more then just for people to roar round in eco nightmare cars frightening the wild life.

 

[Deleted Member S]

Plank I think your making a very good point here :smile: My Mam has mobility probs & the only way she could get up into the hills or along some of the track we have in this country is if I put her in my T2 & took her along them. Hopefully next year when she's a bit better hopefully I may be able to get her to trust my driving :roll: (No comments please)& get her out a bit.
As for myself my legs will not stand up to 10 miles of walking any more Even when i'm stuck on my crutches I can often manage to drive so I get out into the country side & enjoy it :smile:

 

[JonathanM]

It would need quite a case to highlight the needs of individuals, the DDA has a significant impact for disabled people, but I don't think it would work in the situation of greenlaning. I know of individuals who have cited disability in responses to TRO applications, but the outcome does not appear to have altered. Maybe it would need a legal challenge from a laner with disabilities to prove his rights were being affected and that discrimination was in place?

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

I htink the idea is worht exploring!

for example if you only ave the ability to do a short walk or climb, why be stuck at the start of a great route? when you can drive a way and then enjoy the walk to the sumit or place of interest?

A good example woold be 'Top Withens' the suposed sight of Wuthering Heights it is a challenging walk that anyone with mobility problems may not manage, but don't ea all deserve equal acces to Britains literary heritage? It is a hypothetical example but if we work on it i am sure real individuals in real circumstances will be out their who would benefit from some support.

 

[jace]

if your on benefit theyll soon boot u off citing ability to put up with rough terrain and car bouncing around benefit snoopers disguised as ramblers lol!

 

[JonathanM]

I htink the idea is worht exploring!

for example if you only ave the ability to do a short walk or climb, why be stuck at the start of a great route? when you can drive a way and then enjoy the walk to the sumit or place of interest?

A good example woold be 'Top Withens' the suposed sight of Wuthering Heights it is a challenging walk that anyone with mobility problems may not manage, but don't ea all deserve equal acces to Britains literary heritage? It is a hypothetical example but if we work on it i am sure real individuals in real circumstances will be out their who would benefit from some support.

I don't think the route to Top Withens has ever had vehicle rights? So someone claiming discrimination becuase they can't drive it hasn't really got much in the way of rights, becuase no-one can drive it - so it isn't discrimination.

Even the use of disability discrimination laws in terms of opposing TRO's hasn't been tested, and even with the DDA & Disability Equity Duty in place, the law does legislate what a disabled person can or cannot do.

Example:

Person with type 1 diabetes (insulin dependent) cannot:

Join the armed forces.
Drive a HGV over 7.5 (?) tonnes
Drive a PSV over (I think) 12 seats
Hold a full UK licence for longer than 3 years without a medical review

They can be prosecuted for driving under the influence of drugs (insulin) if they can be proven to have been hypoglycaemic at the time of an accident/offence.


I don't agree with these laws as they stand, and consider that it should be taken on a case by case basis, but legisaltion does not take this into account, and any use of discrimination laws re 4x4 access to unsurfaced RoW's would have to be taken on a case by case, and probably more importantly, route by route basis.

 

[Deleted Member S]

Example:

Person with type 1 diabetes (insulin dependent) cannot:

Join the armed forces.
Drive a HGV over 7.5 (?) tonnes
Drive a PSV over (I think) 12 seats
Hold a full UK licence for longer than 3 years without a medical review

They can be prosecuted for driving under the influence of drugs (insulin) if they can be proven to have been hypoglycaemic at the time of an accident/offence.

Jonathan I have type 1 Diabetes & the max you can drive is 7.5 Tonnes if your lucky :roll: My licence went back for renewal 3 years ago & they just took my 7.5T & 3.5T off me without asking me if I was using them :evil: :evil: :evil: So I will be fighting like a goodun this year to trey & get at least my 3.5T back :roll:

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

JonatathanM you do take things a bit to literaly, read my TOP WITHENS example again look fot the word Hypothetical.

My point was basicaly this, not a case of if they are all closed then its equal for all but.

For some people, vehicle access may be the only option for some places, hence equality of outcome raather than equality of opportunity is the thing here. The able bodied have the option to walk ride, horse back etc. that others may not have!

The diabetes example is interesting but a little spurious, as driving for diabetics, (and other groups like epeleptics) is limited for different reasons than the ones this thread is persuing.

If you dont like the idea then fine but all thes pedantic nit picking isint progressing it at all. I think sometimes it is the 'i know best types' that shoot themselves in the foot trying to prove how much they know while missing the real point, a person is trying to make!

 

[JonathanM]

Example:

Person with type 1 diabetes (insulin dependent) cannot:

Join the armed forces.
Drive a HGV over 7.5 (?) tonnes
Drive a PSV over (I think) 12 seats
Hold a full UK licence for longer than 3 years without a medical review

They can be prosecuted for driving under the influence of drugs (insulin) if they can be proven to have been hypoglycaemic at the time of an accident/offence.

Jonathan I have type 1 Diabetes & the max you can drive is 7.5 Tonnes if your lucky :roll: My licence went back for renewal 3 years ago & they just took my 7.5T & 3.5T off me without asking me if I was using them :evil: :evil: :evil: So I will be fighting like a goodun this year to trey & get at least my 3.5T back :roll:

If you've not already spoken to them, then contact Diabetes UK, www.diabetes.org.uk I seem to recall something in their magazines last year about this issue, and assuming that your doctor has given you approval, then the DVLA probably doesn't have a leg to stand on. The 7.5 tonne limit only came about a few years ago after years of no HGV license IIRC?