4x4 response

[zippy656]

Hi Dave, we have just been stood down in our area for 4x4R are you still on call??

sounlds like you been busy busy..

 

[Deleted account DD]

dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?

 

[ocelot]

dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?

not sure if this is directed towards me, but, I have a contact directly with north wales police who contacts me on a regular basis on a wider scope of issues, I'm also one of the regional team leaders for CRAG ( www.crag-uk.org ) and have a role in directing rights of way issues in north wales as well as local authority input...........

On the 4x4R front, the coordinator for us is based in mid wales, I'd imagine that many others on here know Mark Margettts. He is also the bloke behind 'Tread Lightly' .

Resources are directed as requested by the various forces, red cross etc........ by the 4x4 response regional control.

 

[Deleted account DD]

It was originally directed at davemud but thanks :thumb2

I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources.

Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go

Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry.

The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners

Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

 

[iansjones]

heres a question.
When on 4x4 response how are you covered insurance wise?

 

[zippy656]

you have to talk to your own insurance for road work, but public liability is covered under the 4x4 response insurance.

 

[davemud]

You are covered by your normal car insurance there is a form u have to
send to the insurance company and they stamp to say you are covered

You don't require business cover as you are not transporting people for
hire or reward its all Voluntary work and yes you are allowed to revive
payment for mileage allowances

All the regional groups operate under the National 4x4 response Public liability Policy
and agree to a set minimum standard of requirements.

David

I was one of two on-site controller working with the Hospital Emergency Planing Officer and the Council EPO
we do have some MOU but we had to adjust the procedure to include new request because of the
unprecedented level of requests, all our drivers our instructed to only cover thing they are comfortable with
and decline if they feel the request is to much, and we will then appoint a suitably trained driver and vehicle.

 

[Terranosaurus]

Insurance wise a lot a lot depends on the precise details of the MOU/SLA in place. Some put the responsibility on the user service to provide full insurance cover

From a SLA in place between one group and a Constabulary.

3 XYZ AGREE TO:

3.1.....
3.2.....
3.3.....

3.4
Provide full public liability insurance cover and car insurance to ABC 4x4 Response personnel whilst they are deployed in assisting XYZ.

3.5
Provide individual personal accident/death insurance cover to ABC 4x4 Response personnel whilst they are deployed in assisting XYZ.

 

[ocelot]

It was originally directed at davemud but thanks :thumb2

I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources.

Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go

Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry.

The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners

Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

transporting prisoners only with officers present, bear in mind that many 4x4R drivers are ex mod, trained to a high standard and only with a risk assessment in place, carried out by the driver and officers concerned.
Insurance is covered by 4x4R and also in this instance, my own class 1 commercial use......... terrano is no different from a ford focus wrt health and cleanliness, as for the need for arrest, the main criteria is risk of injury to others if the job is not done..........

 

[Deleted account DD]

transporting prisoners only with officers present, bear in mind that many 4x4R drivers are ex mod, trained to a high standard

Not really relevant I'm afraid :nenau

terrano is no different from a ford focus wrt health and cleanliness

Thats why for all but the lowest cleanest grade prisoner movement we have vans.

If the criteria applies that the only option is to arrest and remove a person they are in a situation where I WOULD NOT and more to the point HAVE NEVER moved such a prisoner by Ford Focus. They are going to be stressed and potentially hostile although it may not show.

I and others have fallen foul of that and lived (after a couple of ops and a lot of sickness time) to tell the tale, others have not.

A colleague form a neighbouring force was killed by an arsehole he was transporting and graded as low risk who decided it would be a hoot if he made it to and applied the handbrake whilst travelling at speed. He should have been in a van.

I have seen initially compliant and restrained prisoners kick out transit van rear doors on more than one occasion. I have dealt with prisoners who started off calm and by the end of the journey refused to come out of the van and took on all comers....more than once!

You used to always be able to tell an ex police van because unlike builders transits, the dents in the side were from the inside pushing outwards.

I have also seen a prisoner who pissed themsleves deliberately in the back of a fiesta. They were "hello mate" and "yeah no sweat lets get this sorted" at the start.

There is no such thing as a fully compliant and predictable prisoner.

We all make mistakes at the start but no one seems to learn from them

I really do struggle with this one, ie effectively involving the untrained public in jobs with real risk. I dont doubt your motives but I really do believe that the local force has it wrong. The frequency of serious incidents with damage and injury occurring may be low but it happen regularly and only takes one to kill you. Your not joining in at the lower level. The prisoners you describe are potentially up there...thats why theyre being moved :nenau

Remember, and theres several members on here will tell you just cos the cop says, it doesnt mean its right.

 

[Deleted account DD]

Insurance wise a lot a lot depends on the precise details of the MOU/SLA in place. Some put the responsibility on the user service to provide full insurance cover

From a SLA in place between one group and a Constabulary.

:thumb2 ta, are you aware they are NOT legally binding most actually start with words to the effect of "this is not legally binding document" :nenau

 

[Deleted account DD]

I was one of two on-site controller working with the Hospital Emergency Planing Officer and the Council EPO
we do have some MOU but we had to adjust the procedure to include new request because of the
unprecedented level of requests, all our drivers our instructed to only cover thing they are comfortable with
and decline if they feel the request is to much, and we will then appoint a suitably trained driver and vehicle.

Ta Dave :thumb2 where were the epo's ? did you sit on a multi agency group or "a medical" one ? How did it link into the mutli agency police chaired silver?

Sorry for all of the questions but I am genuinely interested and its always better to get the info from those involved rather than subsequent reports which can sometimes turn a clusterfcuk into a triumph :thumb2

We had ambo open at gold but the rest of us were on a watching brief.

pls pm or email if you dont want to post in an open forum.

 

[zippy656]

on TV


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pyl8d/Inside_Out_West_11_01_2010/<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

<o></o>

 

[makeitfit]

Classic green oval error as that disco meets an embarassing snow drift :lol:lol

 

[zippy656]

was only a little snow as well

 

[Deleted account DD]

Interesting and commendable stuff :thumb2

Good job the guy in the audi has an orange beacon and a high viz jkt, wouldnt have made it through otherwise :augie

Nice one handed style of arm resting driving in adverse conditions and he's an instructor :augie......hmmmmmm.

 

[makeitfit]

Interesting and commendable stuff :thumb2

Good job the guy in the audi has an orange beacon and a high viz jkt, wouldnt have made it through otherwise :augie

Nice one handed style of arm resting driving in adverse conditions and he's an instructor :augie......hmmmmmm.

Yes I thought that, and on TV too:doh
I (almost) bumped into another disco tonight strugling with a bit of snow:augie
To be fair he was trying to avoid some planks van abandoned in the ditch and half covered in snow. Trouble was then he got his wheels in the other ditch:doh
Anyway we got it sorted easy enough only to find a dirty great truck coming out of the snow drift we'd been fighting through
He had one of those things for digging telegraph poles into the ground , you know , a sort of thunderbird 4 mole thing:lol
He was out the back of the truck putting this hydraulic arm onto the ground and pushing himself up the snow drift a metre at a time:sly Determined or what, I reckon he must be on a promise tonight:lol
So it took me about an hour to do three miles from disco to the pub

 

[(RIP) PLANK]

Yes I thought that, and on TV too:doh
I (almost) bumped into another disco tonight strugling with a bit of snow:augie
To be fair he was trying to avoid some planks van abandoned in the ditch and half covered in snow. Trouble was then he got his wheels in the other ditch:doh
Anyway we got it sorted easy enough only to find a dirty great truck coming out of the snow drift we'd been fighting through
He had one of those things for digging telegraph poles into the ground , you know , a sort of thunderbird 4 mole thing:lol
He was out the back of the truck putting this hydraulic arm onto the ground and pushing himself up the snow drift a metre at a time:sly Determined or what, I reckon he must be on a promise tonight:lol
So it took me about an hour to do three miles from disco to the pub

i have an alibi

 

[jims-terrano]

Nice crack in the Audi windscreen, still on the brightside that pier will be finished for summer:lol:lol

Served that Disco right the way he over took

Jim T

PS RAYNET here in West Yorkshire are still getting enquiries from the Police to check our availability but no call out's yet.

 

[ocelot]

Not really relevant I'm afraid :nenau




Thats why for all but the lowest cleanest grade prisoner movement we have vans.

If the criteria applies that the only option is to arrest and remove a person they are in a situation where I WOULD NOT and more to the point HAVE NEVER moved such a prisoner by Ford Focus. They are going to be stressed and potentially hostile although it may not show.

I and others have fallen foul of that and lived (after a couple of ops and a lot of sickness time) to tell the tale, others have not.

A colleague form a neighbouring force was killed by an arsehole he was transporting and graded as low risk who decided it would be a hoot if he made it to and applied the handbrake whilst travelling at speed. He should have been in a van.

I have seen initially compliant and restrained prisoners kick out transit van rear doors on more than one occasion. I have dealt with prisoners who started off calm and by the end of the journey refused to come out of the van and took on all comers....more than once!

You used to always be able to tell an ex police van because unlike builders transits, the dents in the side were from the inside pushing outwards.

I have also seen a prisoner who pissed themsleves deliberately in the back of a fiesta. They were "hello mate" and "yeah no sweat lets get this sorted" at the start.

There is no such thing as a fully compliant and predictable prisoner.

We all make mistakes at the start but no one seems to learn from them

I really do struggle with this one, ie effectively involving the untrained public in jobs with real risk. I dont doubt your motives but I really do believe that the local force has it wrong. The frequency of serious incidents with damage and injury occurring may be low but it happen regularly and only takes one to kill you. Your not joining in at the lower level. The prisoners you describe are potentially up there...thats why theyre being moved :nenau

Remember, and theres several members on here will tell you just cos the cop says, it doesnt mean its right.

ok, I'm not going to reveal too much about myself on here, sufficient to say DaveD, I worked for the home office and other agencies for a long time and retain a warrant card. I'm not really 'untrained public.
The officers concerned were aware of this as were the management (at my request and with the permission of those I work for).
Given that NW Police had no suitable vehicles available and given my unusual credentials, experience and career, the risk assessment which was carried out, met and exceeded the current standard. Is that a sufficient explanation? My main area of works concern the coastguard these days but often Customs etc....... I'd rather not divulge any more information if that's ok.