Wheel Movement

[jims-terrano]

Thought I was getting somewhere today. Got the brakes back together and the steering link not forgetting the ARB Link complete with polly bushes. Got the wheel on and thought I'd check for movement and sure enough there is:doh

So side to side no movement but grabbing the wheel top and bottom I feel a little movement and a slight knock that seems to be coming from where I would expect top ball joint.

Advice welcome and what are they like to replace?

Thanks

 

[rustic]

Thought I was getting somewhere today. Got the brakes back together and the steering link not forgetting the ARB Link complete with polly bushes. Got the wheel on and thought I'd check for movement and sure enough there is:doh

So side to side no movement but grabbing the wheel top and bottom I feel a little movement and a slight knock that seems to be coming from where I would expect top ball joint.

Advice welcome and what are they like to replace?

Thanks

Hi Jim, very easy to change, 25 minutes, if you have a ball joint splitter.
Even if the fixing bolts shear, it doesn't matter, as they shear in the part you are replacing anyway.
:thumb2
Rustic

 

[perelaar]

Rather easy to replace on my 97 T2 (I suspect first time ever they were changed). But: get the bolt kit with them, as for sure the old bolts will shear. If they don't budge, just cut them off.

 

[jims-terrano]

How can I tell that it is the upper Ball Joint, or have I already given enough info?

Thanks

 

[solarman216]

How can I tell that it is the upper Ball Joint, or have I already given enough info?

Thanks

you will not detect bottom ball play as it is under tension, the top is not, (assuming you have jacked under the bottom wishbone near the wheel) so most likely top joint, but to be certain, remove the wheel and repeat the test you should be able to see any movement, if however you jacked under the X member, none of this is true and it will be wheel bearing, as both ball joints are under tension, Rick

 

[jims-terrano]

Car is still on axle stand which is supporting chassis slightly behind jacking point.

Wheel is drooping on the suspension in mid air.

 

[solarman216]

then any play can only be in wheel bearing, it should not have any play at all, it is a taper roller bearing and should have a pre load, about one hole on the lock ring past no play, Rick

 

[jims-terrano]

Oh no, hate those dam circlips too. Well busy with voluntary work until Tuesday now so plenty time to think about it. On the brightside I'll be able to check the brake rings.

Cheers Rick

 

[macabethiel]

Eliminating wheel bearing from suspect movement

then any play can only be in wheel bearing, it should not have any play at all, it is a taper roller bearing and should have a pre load, about one hole on the lock ring past no play, Rick

An easy way to tell the movement is in the wheel bearings is to move the wheel so you can feel the movement. Then get someone to appy the brakes and hold the pedal firmly down.
If the movement has then gone you then can be certain it is the wheel bearings.

 

[jims-terrano]

Tried that but sadly the movement is still there.

 

[solarman216]

Tried that but sadly the movement is still there.

OK lets just recap here a bit, with the chassis on stands and the front suspension at full droop, the top and bottom ball joints are trying to be forced apart so even if they were shot you would not be able to detect it, so the only other place for play is the bearing, so what does applying the brake do, it squeezes the pads onto the disk, this would not be something I would bother with in trying to identify wheel bearing play, if I have eliminated other issues then wheel bearing it is, I have never bothered trying this method but would assume that even with the brakes applied grabbing top and bottom of a wheel would still detect play, Rick

 

[jims-terrano]

Cheers Rick, I'm busy tomorrow on a course so when I get some spare time when I get home from work I'll have a go at adjusting the bearing amd see what happens from there. It can't do any harm and if there's movement after that I'll dig further.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[rustic]

OK lets just recap here a bit, with the chassis on stands and the front suspension at full droop, the top and bottom ball joints are trying to be forced apart so even if they were shot you would not be able to detect it, so the only other place for play is the bearing, so what does applying the brake do, it squeezes the pads onto the disk, this would not be something I would bother with in trying to identify wheel bearing play, if I have eliminated other issues then wheel bearing it is, I have never bothered trying this method but would assume that even with the brakes applied grabbing top and bottom of a wheel would still detect play, Rick

Rick is correct, the caliper on a disc brake when applied only locks the caliper and brakepad to the disc, the disc can still rock if the bearings are shot.
However, for a drum brake, you are locking the brake drum to the back plate, so taking away any bearing play.

So the theory works for drum brakes, but not for disc brakes.:thumb2
Rustic...
Still on the ball..:thumb2

 

[solarman216]

Rick is correct, the caliper on a disc brake when applied only locks the caliper and brakepad to the disc, the disc can still rock if the bearings are shot.
However, for a drum brake, you are locking the brake drum to the back plate, so taking away any bearing play.

So the theory works for drum brakes, but not for disc brakes.:thumb2
Rustic...
Still on the ball..:thumb2

yes still on the ball, you have a way with words Rustic that I envy, Rick

 

[macabethiel]

Suspension movement.

Tried that but sadly the movement is still there.

Then you can rule out wheel bearings as applying the brake pressure effectively locks the disc and the hub into a solid object when you are stationary thus eliminating the wheel bearing in the equation.

Sounds like ball joint movement but be aware that when levering the wheel you are magnifying the wear substantially.

Lots of vehicles do have some tollerance in the joints depending on design including having spring loaded seats!

I beg to differ with Rustic and others who say differently. This is only really the case with a disc braked wheel though. When the disc and hub are locked solid the wheel bearings do not come into play ! No pun intended.lol

 

[rustic]

...
I beg to differ with Rustic and others who say differently. This is only really the case with a disc braked wheel though. When the disc and hub are locked solid the wheel bearings do not come into play ! No pun intended.lol

When the brake calliper ie piston and pads are locked onto the disc, the caliper is still free to move in the caliper carrier, as its only contact with the carrier are metal to metal on slides, and the carrier pins, which also allow movement.
The caliper in effect, floats in the carrier. ok less than a mm movement, but won't hide any bearing play.:thumb2

 

[jims-terrano]

Cheers for the advice guys it is all very much appreciated. Decided that I'm going to adjust the bearing anyway as it's good experience for my son. So if nipping up the bearing helps fine if not I've still gained by working with my son.

Cheers

 

[rustic]

Cheers for the advice guys it is all very much appreciated. Decided that I'm going to adjust the bearing anyway as it's good experience for my son. So if nipping up the bearing helps fine if not I've still gained by working with my son.

Cheers

I think the way the bearing adjustment is made is a nice piece of engineering, when you have done one before, it only takes half an hour.
The circlip is a challenge, but a quick tip, if you have auto hubs, and you have removed the brake rings etc, to get to the adjuster, don't let the drive shaft move backwards into the hub, it can be a pig to get it in position to get the circlip back on after the adjustment, you need the strength of Popeye to push it in from the rear lol, or you might be lucky... lol

To tighten the ring, two blunted nails placed 180 degrees apart, with a lever in between gives you more than enough torque to undo or tighten.:thumb2
Rustic

 

[macabethiel]

Wheel bearing movement issue !!

When the brake calliper ie piston and pads are locked onto the disc, the caliper is still free to move in the caliper carrier, as its only contact with the carrier are metal to metal on slides, and the carrier pins, which also allow movement.
The caliper in effect, floats in the carrier. ok less than a mm movement, but won't hide any bearing play.:thumb2

If you have a solid caliper as were all the older disc brakes keeping the pressure on the brake has no discearnable movement as even the pistons will not move sideways when the system is under pressure.

On the cheaper sliding calipers of later years (including the awful B.L. rivited ones) yes there is some movement in the slider mechanism and pins but this is locked solid by the pressure on the caliper. Applying movement on the wheel to look for play will not be enough leverage to overcome the hydraulic brake pressure acting on the system.

I defy anyone to get 'float movement' when a decent amount of pedal pressure is applied to a static situation. Obviously during normal braking when the disc is rotating you will get some float as Rustic states but it is my experience that when all is at rest there is no movement to be had as effectively the wheel hub and disc become locked as one any wear in the slider system is made solid by the pedal pressure.

This method of eliminating wheelbearing as a suspect was taught to me over 50 years ago by my Father who was a qualified mechanic who did his apprenticeship at R.R. Cars at Crewe and left to start his own business as a mechanic and later in vehicle sales. (Added street cred ??)

Whilst I respect the views of others on this issue I still beg to differ as in my experience this test works in practice.

Perhaps we are splitting hairs as a 1.0 m.m. of movement on a 15 inch wheel is naff all at the business end. Many designs of wheel bearing have a built in movement to stop the bearing from overheating at speed.

That's it I have had my rant now ..............................................bye

 

[macabethiel]

Is this the right Forum for an argument ? I've told you once!

What no contrary opinions or contadictions ?