Run your car on water

[tommo]

Hi
As any body heard / tried this before
http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm
Ive obtained a set of plans to build these units but before i spend the time id be interested to hear others opinion.
If any body would like to see the plans a can Email it to you it is 140 page PDF document.

 

[scooter]

good idea if any body interested i got some info on it which i d/l if you are interested in it send me you email and i will forward it on
my email ([email protected])

 

[Terranosaurus]

When you're ordering your parts can you get me a gallon of snake oil in too please.

Its all a hoax based on a welder that does work using water but requires far more electrical energy to power it than a conventional welder, have a search around using google and include the word hoax and you'll find plenty of sites debunking it. Theres even a previous thread on here somewhere..

 

[Draconis]

I'll have a look at it if you would forward it onto me, I've had a science background.... if it's snake oil I'll just put it in the tank with the SVO

my email is [email protected]

 

[wildbri]

It probely is a come on like all these get rich schemes BUT when I was boy in the 50s and delivering the Manchester evening news there was an headline which I still remember. Zeta Power, power from sea water and it went on say the government were working on making energy from sea water. This was quite a claim, as at the time we were short of fuel (coal) and having power cuts most nights, nobody had cars so oil wasnt a issue. Now whether this was just politics to keep the masses happy I dont know, but I do know that water is made up of oxygen and hydrogen both powerful gases and we are still digging our energy out of the ground and going to war over it whilst the globe is awash with energy containing H2O just waiting to be released...... so come on you scientists and engineers now is the time to release this clean and powerful fuel :smile: ...bri

 

[gordoni]

Hi Tommo,

The whole thing sounds great and there's probably some good science in there - but:

- it talks about the need to replace the exhaust with S/S due to the high water content
- it talks about replacing the engine valves with S/S for the same reason
- insurance could get tricky (even though it could be seen as for "environmental reasons" !)

All in all, interesting, but I'd rather hear real-life experiences from others.

Cheers.

 

[sprokit]

It is just a small hydrogen generator, you can get the same effect from
the old style car battery's the ones we use to put distilled water in.

 

[Terranosaurus]

Takes more energy to split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen than you get back from burning them again - if it didn't they'd be able to build a perpetual motion machine.

 

[tommo]

Hi Ive done a lot more research in to this and yes even the more technical devises still take more energy to produce the hydrogen than what you get out. The extra power coming from the alternator is used to power the hydrogen generator, this also uses power from your engine. But in the real world all your looking for is better MPG.
The cost to build the better of these units is about £100 + the fact the exhaust will rot more quickly is it worth it who knows.
All the people on the net that call the devises all seem to just say it takes more energy to produce than what you get out but seem to be missing the point about all your aiming for is better MPG.
There seems to be as many real world people reporting success as there is scientist saying it cannot work. At this point I'm not convinced but may make one just for the fun of seeing for my self.

 

[Draconis]

It's true it is just a Hydrogen/Oxygen generator, but instead of splitting the oxygen into one tank and the hydrogen from the other anode it simply mixes it naturally and it's then pumped into your air intake, which of course is then sucked into your engine and ignited, technically speaking it takes a lot of power to split the hydrogen from the Oxygen atoms, and I am pretty sure you wouldn't get it's stated 62 PSI that is one hell of a lot of browns gas being pumped into your engine, there would be very little if any water being introduced into your engine just pure oxygen and hydrogen, it would however partially recombine at the combustion stage and be pumped out into your exhaust, but most exhausts contain water when they are heated from cold and condensation takes over, so it would have very little if any negative effect on your exhaust system

what interests me more is the fact that you are enriching your air intake with a higher percentage of oxygen than normal which will increase the combustion process of the petrol/diesel engine and on top of that it would throw a healthy chunk of Hydrogen into the mix to further add to the combustion process.....

if you need any proof that this is sound science, take a jam jar and if you have access to an oxy/acetylene torch, fill the jam jar with oxygen ONLY !! and put the lid on, then light a cigarette and drop it in the jam jar, it will be gone in less than a second with a very bright white flame (the jam jar may well not survive it either :wink: )

the only worry I would have is flashback because a Hydrogen and Oxygen mix being introduced into the air intake would require very little ignition and most air intake systems are not designed to take a detonation should it happen, the system has a flashback eliminator fitted but that only protects the device not the air intake 8O

I think you could see an improved MPG figure because your fuel would be more completely burned because of the increased oxygen rather than some of it being released as unburnt gases, so getting more power from the same amount of fuel

there are ways of increasing hydrogen and oxygen production by using different alloys which attract the different atoms of either oxygen or hydrogen, and the electronics they are using is a NE555 timer using capacitors to vary the pulse length, so "technically" it would use less power than just plugging it in and letting it fizz so to speak..... and the use of induction in a collapsing magnetic field to increase power output is a well tested technique for getting more bang for your buck, as the field collapses it induces current into the induction coil which pumps it out again into the cathode and anode circuit :wink:

but the only way you will be able to tell if its going to save you ££££'s is to make one and try it out

 

[Draconis]

you could of course just fit an oxygen bottle and hydrogen bottle into your boot and feed the pipes to your engine and use some sort of regulator to adjust the hydrogen/oxygen mix to give it a try before you buy :lol:

mind you I have no idea how much oxygen and hydrogen bottles cost, you could try helium but you may well lose that throaty roar as you pull away .....pmsl

 

[Terranosaurus]

Any additional oxygen in the mixture will be used to combust the hydrogen similarly added to the mixture so there will not be any extra oxygen available to help with more fully oxidising the fuel.

There MAY be an effect similar to water injection happening whereby the additional water vapour in the resultant exhaust gases expands more than the normal exhaust gas would. However the amount of effect available from an ordinary automotive alterator powered system is negligible as they are relatively so under powered.

 

[Draconis]

you are presuming the oxygen content is equal or less than the Hydrogen Hummingbird ANY oxygen introduced into the air intake will increase combustion, because it isn't actually detonated until it's drawn into the cylinders and either the spark plug fires or the diesel combusts under pressure from the piston, by which time the oxygen/petrol/hydrogen/diesel mixture will have been well mixed

Oxygen doesn't care if its hydrogen or diesel or petrol it's oxidising a higher proportion of it will assist combustion no matter what the fuel is

 

[Terranosaurus]

I'm actually assuming there will be half as much Oxygen present as hydrogen ie H20, H2 and O2.

Oxygen does care (as such), it will oxidise the most reactive thing there - which in this case will be hydrogen and as you'll have expended at least as much energy getting the water to split to its component form as you'll get out the nett effect will be nil at best most probably negative. If you could produce hydrogen and oxygen all the time but store it and only release it say under full throttle you may be able to get a gain under those conditions but it would probably be easier and safer to add an NO2 bottle and an extra diesel/petrol injector.


you may wish to read THIS article which refers to Hydrogen storage

 

[Draconis]

I'm actually assuming there will be half as much Oxygen present as hydrogen ie H20, H2 and O2.

nine tenths of water, is oxygen....Water is eighty-nine percent oxygen by weight

:wink:

atomically speaking

but you are right there will be more free Hydrogen than Oxygen by a factor of 2/3rds but on the subject of oxygen being selective.... it isn't
The view of oxidation and reduction is that of adding oxygen to form an oxide (oxidation) or removing oxygen (reduction). They always occur together. For example, in the burning of hydrogen
2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O

the hydrogen is oxidized and the oxygen is reduced. The combination of nitrogen and oxygen which occurs at high temperatures follows the same pattern.
N2 + O2 -> 2NO

This formation of nitric oxide oxidises the nitrogen and reduces the oxygen. In some reactions, the oxidation is most prominent. For example in the burning of methane,
CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O

both carbon and hydrogen are oxidized (gain oxygen). The accompanying reduction of oxygen is perhaps easier to see when you describe reduction as the gaining of hydrogen.

On the other hand, the reaction of lead dioxide at high temperatures appears to be just reduction.
2PbO2 -> 2PbO + O2

The reduction of the lead dioxide is clear, but the associated oxidation of oxygen is easier to see when you describe oxidation as the losing of electrons... that's basically how I remember it

 

[Terranosaurus]

I'm actually assuming there will be half as much Oxygen present as hydrogen ie H20, H2 and O2.

nine tenths of water, is oxygen....Water is eighty-nine percent oxygen by weight

:wink:

atomically speaking

but you are right there will be more free Hydrogen than Oxygen by a factor of 2/3rds but on the subject of oxygen being selective.... it isn't
The view of oxidation and reduction is that of adding oxygen to form an oxide (oxidation) or removing oxygen (reduction). They always occur together. For example, in the burning of hydrogen
2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O

the hydrogen is oxidized and the oxygen is reduced. The combination of nitrogen and oxygen which occurs at high temperatures follows the same pattern.
N2 + O2 -> 2NO

This formation of nitric oxide oxidises the nitrogen and reduces the oxygen. In some reactions, the oxidation is most prominent. For example in the burning of methane,
CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O

both carbon and hydrogen are oxidized (gain oxygen). The accompanying reduction of oxygen is perhaps easier to see when you describe reduction as the gaining of hydrogen.

On the other hand, the reaction of lead dioxide at high temperatures appears to be just reduction.
2PbO2 -> 2PbO + O2

The reduction of the lead dioxide is clear, but the associated oxidation of oxygen is easier to see when you describe oxidation as the losing of electrons... that's basically how I remember it

You'll probably remember his little series too then.

Ca,Na,k,Mg,Al,Zn,Fe,Pb,Hg,C,Al


Every other substance be it metal, non metal, ionic or covalent compound actually a has a place in the reactivity series and that is why I say the oxidation of hydrogen will be favoured over that of diesel/petrol.


And you're quite right about loss/gain of electrons but that doesn't really serve any purpose here.

Bottom line on this one is if it were so simply Ford, GM, VAG etc would have done it, with CO2 figures so important to selling cars these days anyway to reduce fuel consumption would have been grabbed with both hands.


Just cos its on the internet doesn't make it true.

 

[sprokit]

I will get me coat!!!!! :arrow:

 

[Draconis]

Yes I'm familiar with :-

calcium
sodium
potassium
Magnesium
Zinc
Iron
Lead
Mercury
Carbon
Aluminium

but I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion unless you are talking about Oxidation numbers....for example a sodium atom always ionizes to become Na+ (a charge of +1) when it combines with other atoms to make a compound. Therefore, we say that sodium has an oxidation number of 1+.

An oxidation number indicates the charge on the remaining atom (ion) when electrons are lost, gained, or shared in chemical bonds. Oxidation numbers correspond closely to an element’s group on the periodic table. All of the alkali metals have oxidation numbers of 1+ since these elements all prefer to lose one electron in chemical bonds. All of the halogens have an oxidation number of 1- because these elements prefer to gain an electron in chemical bonds. Most transition metals have complicated oxidation numbers because they have many more electrons.


Now Petrol (for instance) is made of a mixture of hydrocarbons, which are molecules composed of carbon and hydrogen atoms. Typically, in standard Petrol, the hydrocarbons consist of carbons chains which are 5-10 carbon atoms long, but this isn't written in stone as it depends on the type of crude oil it is cracked from

Whether or not a compound is ionic or covalently bonded depends on how much each element “needs” an electron to get to a magic number (2 or 8... except the noble gases which already have 8 so don't care)

Widely separated elements form ionic compounds, so in one sense you are right, Hydrogen being on the left and Oxygen being on the right of the periodic table, but the complex hydrocarbons present in road fuel would also attract Oxygen and the uptake would not be uniform when you add the enormous temperatures and energy released during combustion which afterall is the making and breaking of bonds between the molecules ....if an Oxygen atom bumped into a complex chain of hydrocarbons it wouldn't pass it by to seek out a lonely Hydrogen atom.... first come first served

I'm not saying the device is "bound" to work and neither am I so gullible to believe everything I see or hear, I am pretty damn sure in fact that the device will not live up to its claims, because as you said if it did then most of the car manufacturers would have included it..... but it stands to reason based on our previous debate that introducing Oxygen and Hydrogen into the cylinders will have an effect and could possibly increase your MPG, which is all the device claims it will do

there is currently a lot of scientific work on hydrogen generators to supplement fossil fuel in combustion engines notably by Proton, so the science is sound but still in its infancy at the moment

 

[wildbri]

so much for me waiting 50 years for my newspaper headline to come true, I'm sure it will happen despite the difficulties but I suspect not in my lifetime :smile: ....bri

 

[Draconis]

Just sling a lump of weapons grade plutonium under your bonnet and all your worries will be over in a flash