Loss of Drive - All Gears - Terrano 2

[solarman216]

This morning I got a workmate to sit in the driver's seat and start pushing on the clutch pedal whilst I was under the car watching the clutch actuation arm. The arm started to move about an inch after he started to press the pedal and appeared to travel its full length.

Whilst under the vehicle I checked for any free pay between the 'pushrod' and arm. There was none, actually, the arm was being pressed quite firmly by the push rod without any force being applied to the pedal. I was able to manually push the pushrod back and 'wiggle' the actuation arm quite easily, but otherwise, I think that the thrust bearing is constantly being forced against the tangs on the pressure plate. Whether or not it is exerting adequate force to imitate riding the clutch I cannot determine?

It is normal for the slave to push the arm all the time and the force is nothing like enough to cause slip

We also took the top off the master cylinder, which was full. Presumably, this means the system is sealed with no fluid loss or absorption of air? However, the hydraulic fluid is quite dark, verging on black almost, which I know isn't good.

No the black is from your rubbers and hose, waste of time and fluid bleeding it

I have not tried Rick's clutch drop test yet, as I really don't want anything to fail catastrophically whilst at work, I will do this at home, though after I have bled the system initially (and changed the fluid) to see if there is any improvement, and fitted the new clutch flexi pipe and slave cylinder I have ordered off of eBay today.

When I took the slave cylinder off during the clutch change I had to secure the internal piston with a cable tie, I don't know if this constant creep is normal or if it a result of a defective component.

This is normal as there is a light spring pushing the piston out in order to maintain clutch arm zero play

I have also searched the threads on the forum, and it appears there may be some scope for adjustment at the Master Cylinder/Clutch Pedal mechanical joint?

There is but your does not need adjusting, your problem has to be the flexi hose, maybe it only goes into one way valve mode when the engine is moving on its mounts as when driving but not when stationary, you do need to do the drop test, it is totally none damaging, if your clutch cannot take all the engine power then by definition it is no good, no good having 125 horses if you cannot get all of it to the wheels

Regards

Alan

Rick

 

[TONUP]

Thanks Banshee & Terranosaurusdoug, that's really helpful.

I finished work late today, but hopefully my new flexi pipe will arrive tomorrow, so I can replace the fluid. I didn't know you had to unbolt the master cylinder to access the adjuster, so that will save me some time scratching my head!

One question though... Do you need to remove the clevis pin from the pedal assembly to pull the master cylinder off the bulkhead to reach the bolt though?

Back on the axle stand it is the . Let's hope the transmission doesn't need pulling out again!

Regards

Alan

 

[TONUP]

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed response. You must have posted whilst I was responding to Banshee & Terranosaurusdoug.

Your replies to my questions provide a great deal of clarity, and will save me some considerable time and expense.

It's strange that you mention when the engine is running, as the 'snapping' back that can be felt in the pedal return stroke is more prominent when the vehicle is on the move.

Also, I don't seem to have a damper pipe, but I will check again tomorrow? I may be looking in the wrong place.

Thanks & Regards

Alan

 

[jims-terrano]

Is it possible that a 3 litre doesn't have a damper pipe?

The damper on the 2.7 is connected to the metal block on the end of the flexi hose.

 

[solarman216]

Not all 2.7's have the damper pipe and as long as there is no air in it it will not hinder clutch operation anyway, if you have one and it has a significant amount of air in it then your clutch may not free till pedal is on the floor due to compressing the air instead of pushing the piston, Rick

 

[TONUP]

Not all 2.7's have the damper pipe and as long as there is no air in it it will not hinder clutch operation anyway, if you have one and it has a significant amount of air in it then your clutch may not free till pedal is on the floor due to compressing the air instead of pushing the piston, Rick

That may explain it. I am fairly sure it's not on the metal block as I unbolted that in order to 'swing' the slave cylinder out of harms way during the clutch removal work. I hope that I have ordered the correct hose now. I suppose I can block the outlet on the new one with a bolt if needed. I think I have read on the forum that it is 1/4" BSP thread. not that that means a lot to me (bit technical).

Regards

Alan

 

[Fez_uk]

I hope that I have ordered the correct hose now. I suppose I can block the outlet on the new one with a bolt if needed. I think I have read on the forum that it is 1/4" BSP thread.
Alan

I recently was looking and I thought it was 3/8" BSP and might of been fine pitch, In the end I got a 8mm compression end fitting as I know the pipe is 8mm.

 

[jims-terrano]

Surely it is better to get the correct hose for your vehicle?

 

[TONUP]

Surely it is better to get the correct hose for your vehicle?

There can be no doubt about that, but I am desperate to try to resolve this issue. The supplier has 15-day returns policy and PayPal guarantee, so I'm fairly comfortable about it. Also, it is supposed to arrive today, so I can start the job this afternoon with luck.

I also have a company near me that make hydraulic hoses. Hopefully, they have a bolt to fit the hole if I need it.

Regards

Alan

 

[TONUP]

Hi Guys,

Today the new flexi pipe arrived from the eBay seller (£37.50 I think), but not the slave cylinder which I cancelled due to a 7 day delivery confirmed by the seller!

With the car place on ramps I set about removing the old flexi pipe. Using the flare spanners I had for Christmas (first time using them) I undid the pipe from the master cylinder and the one from the damper (seems there is one after all - poor observational skills on my part). These two undid easily (although I used Rick's tip of levering it with a larger spanner), but I took the precaution of bracing the assembly and bracket with mole grips, as I didn't want to snap or bend anything.

The banjo on the slave cylinder would not budge though, so I decided to remove it and put it in the vice to save knuckle damage as the space is tight around it. I also took the opportunity to slacken the bleed nipple off at the same time.

I then went to the rear axle to have a look for the bleed nipple on the damper pipe. Found it to be covered in rust on a quite corroded bracket. Once again stabilising everything with the mole grips I gave the spanner a couple of taps with a small hammer and, to my astonishment it came loose.

Spurred on by this good progress I fitted the new flexi pipe to the now empty hydraulic system. This went well, but I made one mistake of placing the banjo on the slave over the bolt holes . I put the new flexi pipe and Slave cylinder together on the bench. Reconnecting the pipes was easy and the metal block on the flexi was bolted back to the bracket on the chassis.

Now to recharge and bleed the system. Whilst at the local motor factors to buy some clutch fluid, I picked up an easy bleed kit recommended by them as they didn't have any clear tubing. I was sceptical about this for £5.95, but thought it was worth a try and I could use the clear tube that it came with anyway.

First I filled the master cylinder with fluid, got in the car and pressed the pedal. It immediately went to the floor and stayed there. A bit worrying I thought. Getting under the car I slackened the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder and pumped the pedal with no change other than it completely emptying the master cylinder. I repeated this a few times with no improvement. I then decided to try the bleed nipple on the master cylinder. This had the immediate effect of stiffening the pedal action, not to a usable condition but better. Back under the car then to do the slave cylinder. This was repeated a few times with pedal pressure improving all the time, whilst monitoring the fluid levels in the master cylinder.

Satisfied that no air remained in the master or slave cylinder I finally bled the damper pipe. By this time pedal pressure was noticeably firmer and the pedal was returning back quite nicely.

Then I took it out for a test drive, after checking gears could be selected without crashing or grinding them. This time I decided to be far more robust in my testing regime. I gave it plenty of throttle though all the gears, getting up to the 4000rpm region and slamming the accelerator down in third and fourth whilst moving. I was unable to to repeat the slipping from my journey two or three days ago. I then did a variation of wheel spins, hills start and heavy engine braking experiments just to up the ante so to speak.

Now onto Rick's clutch drop test. I found a quiet side road parked up and applied the handbrake as far as I dared without doing any damage. Foot the hard on the brake and fifth gear selected. Whilst still covering the brake I floored the throttle and in a buttock clenching moment I dropped the clutch. To my relief the engine stalled, whilst not immediately definitely with the two second mark specified by Rick. I would say in two quick clicks of the fingers for a reference, but not like a first gear stall.

I then returned home giving it an additional 'caning' just for luck! Hopefully this latest job will have done the trick. Whether or not brand new hydraulic fluid improves clutch feel, or if it is in my head I cannot say. My inner pessimist still advocates caution and humility, but fingers crossed anyway. The only thing that still seems slightly apparent is the snapping back of the pedal at the top of its return stroke occasionally?

Below I have put some pictures, as it might help others in some small way...

New flexi pipe



Linking spanner and bracing the bracket and assembly



Damper pipe bleed nipple over rear axle



£5.95 & it worked pretty well



Forensic testing on the old pipe provided no results



Regards

Alan

 

[solarman216]

Well done, should have cured it now, cutting the old pipe will not usually show anything, I got my last pipe from local factors £17 next day, I rarely use bleed nipples for bleeding, other tricks prove better, Rick

 

[Blocky10]

Great news. Have been waiting for an update :thumb2

 

[Banshee]

Bloody briliant!!!!! :clap

 

[TONUP]

Well done, should have cured it now, cutting the old pipe will not usually show anything, I got my last pipe from local factors £17 next day, I rarely use bleed nipples for bleeding, other tricks prove better, Rick

Thanks Rick,

Sounds interesting. Do you use one of those vacuum bleating kits?

Regards

Alan

 

[TONUP]

Great news. Have been waiting for an update :thumb2

I am glad it has been of interest. I hope others may benefit from the thread and all the help I recieved.

Regards

Alan

 

[TONUP]

Bloody briliant!!!!! :clap

Appreciate it.

I think I may change the master cylinder at some point and overhaul (if that's possible) the clutch pedal assembly. Just going to drive it now to see how I get on.

Regards

Alan

 

[solarman216]

Thanks Rick,

Sounds interesting. Do you use one of those vacuum bleating kits?

Regards

Alan

No nothing but gravity, and tricks learnt over the years, Rick

 

[Banshee]

If anyone is interested or subscribed to this thread due to being interested in this topic, take a look over at my Project Thread as over the next few weeks I too shall be carrying out this job as my clutch went on the 1st :doh

I'll be doing the work on my drive too