Looking at the dark side!

[Lazy-Ferret]

I have been looking at alternatives to the T2, and it's not going well..

I know this sort of question has been asked before, but the posts are all very old, and hard to work through, I was up till 2am reading old posts last night.

So... I was looking at the Pathfinder, but in general, the reviews on here were not too good at all, on top of that, it looks like they are all in the very high road tax fee area.

I then started looking at the Patrols, and I know there are a lot of lovers of them on here now, with many doing the same as me, and moving on from the beloved T2, but again, no one has actually done a proper review on the trials and tribulations of owning one, now they are older and time worn.

I would like to go for as late as possible, with out entering the very high tax area, so it looks like 05/early 06.

What are the good and bad engines?
Where are the typical rust spots?
What gadgets tend to give out prematurely?
Can I do most jobs on an open driveway with a normal selection of tools?
How juicy are they really in comparison to the T2?
Are there any that can still use Veg oil?
Did you notice a hike in insurance costs?
Do they tow as well as a T2, as I still think it is the best car I have ever towed with?
Comfort, again, the T2 is great for long drives, and does not set up my back, how is the Patrol?

I am sure I will have more questions, but I hope some of you can answer these to start with.

 

[Barrbeast]

I would like to go for as late as possible, with out entering the very high tax area, so it looks like 05/early 06.

What are the good and bad engines?
Where are the typical rust spots?
What gadgets tend to give out prematurely?
Can I do most jobs on an open driveway with a normal selection of tools?
How juicy are they really in comparison to the T2?
Are there any that can still use Veg oil?
Did you notice a hike in insurance costs?
Do they tow as well as a T2, as I still think it is the best car I have ever towed with?
Comfort, again, the T2 is great for long drives, and does not set up my back, how is the Patrol?

I am sure I will have more questions, but I hope some of you can answer these to start with.

Can't answer from the Terrano on to Patrol point of view, but I can answer from the point of view of a Trol Owner and aficionado of almost 6 years, including modifying etc.

- What are the good and bad engines?

Sounds like you are looking at a Y61 which in UK spec came out in 1998 with a 2.8TD engine (a slightly modernised version of the one in the older Y60s) which was replaced in 2000 with a 3.0TD engine. Both the 2.8 and 3.0 engines have good and bad points. The age you are looking at will all be 3.0s but I will mention both engines.

I'm not an expert on the 2.8 but my understanding is that they can suffer issues with the headasket and with the Harmonic Balancer coming loose (this is what we believe happened to the one Banshee is looking at). Apparently capable of big mileage if maintained properly, if a little gutless unless tweaked.

My Y61 was a 2004 3.0. The 3.0 issues are well documented and the engine has suffered a historic bad rep as a result, however this seems to have resulted from a poor design in the initial 3.0 engines (refined around late 2002/early 2003, before they put them in the Terranos) and owners not maintaining and/or modifying without checking fully what the effect will be on the engine environment - I have said it time and time again on Faceache, you must research any 3.0 engine mods before doing them as it does not like the "hashing on" approach to modding. Saying that some early 3.0s are fine, but many had issues. At your age of vehicle you will be looking at the amended design anyway. Be wary of any 3.0 that looks like it hasn't seen proper maintenance and/or if it has overboosting issues (indicated by the overboost protection kicking in which temporarily stops the throttle working until you lift off and back on again). If you are keeping the engine standard then keep up maintenance and you should be fine. For insurance though you can fit a catch can to stop oil from the engine breather filling the intercooler and creating an oily, sooty paste in the throttle body. If you want you can go a step further by blanking the EGR but if you do you have to ensure you do something to control the boost and prevent her overboosting (couple of ways to do this). My Y61 had a catch can, EGR blank and modification to stop overboost (and a few other mods :augie), was used as a daily driver and abused offroad for the 3 years I had her and far as I know is still going strong with her new owner.

- Where are the typical rust spots?

Front radiator crossmember is VERY common (known as the factory rust as it is so prevalent). Apart from that check the usual spots, sills etc.

- What gadgets tend to give out prematurely?

They came with an electronic anti-rollbar disconnecting link for the rear ARB, very common for this to give out, you can either replace, fit a standard ARB link or remove. Apart from that perhaps the headlight washers :nenau

- Can I do most jobs on an open driveway with a normal selection of tools?

I would say so :thumb2

- How juicy are they really in comparison to the T2?

Not done a lot of driving in the T2's but the Trols are very capable.

- Are there any that can still use Veg oil?

Perhaps the 2.8s but the 3.0 absolutely does not like veg.

- Did you notice a hike in insurance costs?

Can't answer this one.

- Do they tow as well as a T2, as I still think it is the best car I have ever towed with?

Great tow beasts, the manuals are rated to tow 3.5t, autos are 2.5t. Both will pull much more in practice. 3.0s will generally tow a bit better than the 2.8s (as standard)

-Comfort, again, the T2 is great for long drives, and does not set up my back, how is the Patrol?

I took my Y61 on plenty of long journeys and it was very comfortable, I jumped into a few T2s on laning weekends and the Trol has a lot more space in my opinion.


Hope that helps

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Can't answer from the Terrano on to Patrol point of view, but I can answer from the point of view of a Trol Owner and aficionado of almost 6 years, including modifying etc.

- What are the good and bad engines?

Sounds like you are looking at a Y61 which in UK spec came out in 1998 with a 2.8TD engine (a slightly modernised version of the one in the older Y60s) which was replaced in 2000 with a 3.0TD engine. Both the 2.8 and 3.0 engines have good and bad points. The age you are looking at will all be 3.0s but I will mention both engines.

I'm not an expert on the 2.8 but my understanding is that they can suffer issues with the headasket and with the Harmonic Balancer coming loose (this is what we believe happened to the one Banshee is looking at). Apparently capable of big mileage if maintained properly, if a little gutless unless tweaked.

My Y61 was a 2004 3.0. The 3.0 issues are well documented and the engine has suffered a historic bad rep as a result, however this seems to have resulted from a poor design in the initial 3.0 engines (refined around late 2002/early 2003, before they put them in the Terranos) and owners not maintaining and/or modifying without checking fully what the effect will be on the engine environment - I have said it time and time again on Faceache, you must research any 3.0 engine mods before doing them as it does not like the "hashing on" approach to modding. Saying that some early 3.0s are fine, but many had issues. At your age of vehicle you will be looking at the amended design anyway. Be wary of any 3.0 that looks like it hasn't seen proper maintenance and/or if it has overboosting issues (indicated by the overboost protection kicking in which temporarily stops the throttle working until you lift off and back on again). If you are keeping the engine standard then keep up maintenance and you should be fine. For insurance though you can fit a catch can to stop oil from the engine breather filling the intercooler and creating an oily, sooty paste in the throttle body. If you want you can go a step further by blanking the EGR but if you do you have to ensure you do something to control the boost and prevent her overboosting (couple of ways to do this). My Y61 had a catch can, EGR blank and modification to stop overboost (and a few other mods :augie), was used as a daily driver and abused offroad for the 3 years I had her and far as I know is still going strong with her new owner.

- Where are the typical rust spots?

Front radiator crossmember is VERY common (known as the factory rust as it is so prevalent). Apart from that check the usual spots, sills etc.

- What gadgets tend to give out prematurely?

They came with an electronic anti-rollbar disconnecting link for the rear ARB, very common for this to give out, you can either replace, fit a standard ARB link or remove. Apart from that perhaps the headlight washers :nenau

- Can I do most jobs on an open driveway with a normal selection of tools?

I would say so :thumb2

- How juicy are they really in comparison to the T2?

Not done a lot of driving in the T2's but the Trols are very capable.

- Are there any that can still use Veg oil?

Perhaps the 2.8s but the 3.0 absolutely does not like veg.

- Did you notice a hike in insurance costs?

Can't answer this one.

- Do they tow as well as a T2, as I still think it is the best car I have ever towed with?

Great tow beasts, the manuals are rated to tow 3.5t, autos are 2.5t. Both will pull much more in practice. 3.0s will generally tow a bit better than the 2.8s (as standard)

-Comfort, again, the T2 is great for long drives, and does not set up my back, how is the Patrol?

I took my Y61 on plenty of long journeys and it was very comfortable, I jumped into a few T2s on laning weekends and the Trol has a lot more space in my opinion.


Hope that helps

Thank you so much.. very useful.:bow

 

[Barrbeast]

No worries, just realised I had my Y61 4 years not 3 (my maths are terrible :doh)

 

[Banshee]

No worries, just realised I had my Y61 4 years not 3 (my maths are terrible :doh)

Your English isn't much better either Scot!!!!:augie

 

[Barrbeast]

Your English isn't much better either Scot!!!!:augie

That's 'cos I'm Scottish yeh brummy get :kissy

 

[Mr K]

:roflol::roflol::roflol:

Nice write up Rob :thumb2

 

[macabethiel]

WJ Grand Cherokee ?

Okay it's not by Nissan and automatic only methinks but the WJ series Grand Cherokee has a lot to offer. Cheap to buy easy to maintain with lots of aftermarket parts for suspension etc.

Plenty of used spares due to so much of it being MB parts.

Mercedes 2.7 Litre 5 Cylinder designed OM 647 engine that puts out 161 BHP with 295 lb ft of Torque. All are in the cheaper VEL duty band, surprisingly economical if you keep the top speed down to 60-65 mph.

Later Ltd edition have lots of toys. Everything electrical on my WJ still works with one exception, I had to disconnect the electric gizmo that only allows you to remove the ignition key when in Park.

Bodywork is pretty good but I have had mine treated underneath with some Body Shultz with added waxoyl. Bought our with 69k miles on the clock with FSH has now done 119k miles in 3 years. Only mechanical issue was a couple of leaking injectors this year at 108k miles that I had fixed locally by Garage - cost £259.99 including oil change.

The ride on poor roads is a bit humpty dumpty but that's probably as mine has a heavy duty rear ARB that was on it when purchased. She has done 8 runs to Calais by the Missus without problems.

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Okay it's not by Nissan and automatic only methinks but the WJ series Grand Cherokee has a lot to offer. Cheap to buy easy to maintain with lots of aftermarket parts for suspension etc.

Plenty of used spares due to so much of it being MB parts.

Mercedes 2.7 Litre 5 Cylinder designed OM 647 engine that puts out 161 BHP with 295 lb ft of Torque. All are in the cheaper VEL duty band, surprisingly economical if you keep the top speed down to 60-65 mph.

Later Ltd edition have lots of toys. Everything electrical on my WJ still works with one exception, I had to disconnect the electric gizmo that only allows you to remove the ignition key when in Park.

Bodywork is pretty good but I have had mine treated underneath with some Body Shultz with added waxoyl. Bought our with 69k miles on the clock with FSH has now done 119k miles in 3 years. Only mechanical issue was a couple of leaking injectors this year at 108k miles that I had fixed locally by Garage - cost £259.99 including oil change.

The ride on poor roads is a bit humpty dumpty but that's probably as mine has a heavy duty rear ARB that was on it when purchased. She has done 8 runs to Calais by the Missus without problems.

Cheers for that, I thought they were very juicy.

I can't work out what the WJ bit means, I did a search but it did not come back with anything.

Is this the sort you mean?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-54-JEEP-GRAND-CHEROKEE-2-7-LIMITED-CRD-5D-AUTO-161-BHP-DIESEL/202524293992?hash=item2f27637b68:g:dS8AAOSw11BcDxjx:rk:1f:0

Lot cheaper than the Troll.

 

[macabethiel]

Yep that's the WJ series

Cheers for that, I thought they were very juicy.

I can't work out what the WJ bit means, I did a search but it did not come back with anything.

Is this the sort you mean?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-54-JEEP-GRAND-CHEROKEE-2-7-LIMITED-CRD-5D-AUTO-161-BHP-DIESEL/202524293992?hash=item2f27637b68:g:dS8AAOSw11BcDxjx:rk:1f:0

Lot cheaper than the Troll.

Yes that is a WJ series made between 1995-2005, later model is the WK that is a V6 3.0 litre Mercedes based OM 642 engine, our WK is in the cheaper VEL band as it's a 2005. WK is more modern in appearance, 261 h.p. with 460 lb ft Torque. Thirstier, quieter potentially more expensive if it goes wrong though. Mercedes sold the Jeep/Chrysler brand sometime around 2007 and after model run out no Merc parts.

We drive our WJ daily, to date we use the WK about once every ten days or so for longer runs mainly. Like a lot of older vehicles the WJ has bags of character. We intend to run the WJ until it is no longer viable and then just have one 4x4.

When we first bought the WJ the wife hated it compared with our r3mR & the Santa Fe that replaced it. Now she loves it and the reason we have another Jeep is because nothing else was an option aside from a Patrol and that was outside our budget taking into account mileage on the used market.

Pretty sure other members have owned WJ's. Pre WJ series is the ZJ not unlike the WJ at a glance, Petrol Models were pretty solid but the 2.5 Diesel engine was a bag of trouble, it had individual head gaskets for each cylinder!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Grand_Cherokee_(WJ)

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Well that's an eye opener... I would really be heading over to the dark side if we go down that route. Suz wants to go and look at some Jeeps now.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Yes that is a WJ series made between 1995-2005, later model is the WK that is a V6 3.0 litre Mercedes based OM 642 engine, our WK is in the cheaper VEL band as it's a 2005. WK is more modern in appearance, 261 h.p. with 460 lb ft Torque. Thirstier, quieter potentially more expensive if it goes wrong though. Mercedes sold the Jeep/Chrysler brand sometime around 2007 and after model run out no Merc parts.

We drive our WJ daily, to date we use the WK about once every ten days or so for longer runs mainly. Like a lot of older vehicles the WJ has bags of character. We intend to run the WJ until it is no longer viable and then just have one 4x4.

When we first bought the WJ the wife hated it compared with our r3mR & the Santa Fe that replaced it. Now she loves it and the reason we have another Jeep is because nothing else was an option aside from a Patrol and that was outside our budget taking into account mileage on the used market.

Pretty sure other members have owned WJ's. Pre WJ series is the ZJ not unlike the WJ at a glance, Petrol Models were pretty solid but the 2.5 Diesel engine was a bag of trouble, it had individual head gaskets for each cylinder!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Grand_Cherokee_(WJ)

Have you heard anything about the "Black Death"? I was reading up a bit, and it seems quite an issue on the 2.7's.

 

[Barrbeast]

Nice write up Rob :thumb2

Cheers dude:thumb2

Trol, Trol, Trol, Trol

 

[macabethiel]

Black Death !

Have you heard anything about the "Black Death"? I was reading up a bit, and it seems quite an issue on the 2.7's.

The so called "Black Death" I suspect is referring to leaking injector seals I had two fixed as per my previous post.

If you are into prevention rather than cure you could just get a new set of seals & stretch bolts and replace them before they leak.

TBH it is more common on the 4 cylinder MB engines.

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

The so called "Black Death" I suspect is referring to leaking injector seals I had two fixed as per my previous post.

If you are into prevention rather than cure you could just get a new set of seals & stretch bolts and replace them before they leak.

TBH it is more common on the 4 cylinder MB engines.

Cheers, talk about over dramatisation! I saw it mentioned on a couple of adverts, and the picture literally showed the top of the engine under a layer of black sludge. It mentioned that they had fixed 1 - 3, but you had to drop the engine to get to 4 & 5.

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[macabethiel]

Getting at the back ones ?

Cheers, talk about over dramatisation! I saw it mentioned on a couple of adverts, and the picture literally showed the top of the engine under a layer of black sludge. It mentioned that they had fixed 1 - 3, but you had to drop the engine to get to 4 & 5.

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Not sure if there is a way around doing number 4 & 5 my local garage use a mobile diesel specialists "Service Garage Ltd & Borrowash Diesel Services "who do the difficult removals they seem to have special bespoke tools for all eventualities. Even MB Derby used them to remove seized injectors!

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Not sure if there is a way around doing number 4 & 5 my local garage use a mobile diesel specialists "Service Garage Ltd & Borrowash Diesel Services "who do the difficult removals they seem to have special bespoke tools for all eventualities. Even MB Derby used them to remove seized injectors!

I have read up so much, I now don't know if I am coming or going... Suz's wants a Troll, but there are no good ones out there at the moment in our price/age area. I want a 2014 T2, but they don't exist!!

So as a compromise, we are off to look at a 04 2.7 Overland tomorrow..

Oh, and in answer to the 4 & 5 injectors issue, apparently, the trick is to remove the plastic trim panel under the windscreen, and then cut 2 50mm holes in the metal apron over the injectors, then when finished, waxoil and put a bung in the 2 holes, finally refitting the trim hiding them. Simples!! Yehh Right!:doh

 

[macabethiel]

I have read up so much, I now don't know if I am coming or going... Suz's wants a Troll, but there are no good ones out there at the moment in our price/age area. I want a 2014 T2, but they don't exist!!

So as a compromise, we are off to look at a 04 2.7 Overland tomorrow..

Oh, and in answer to the 4 & 5 injectors issue, apparently, the trick is to remove the plastic trim panel under the windscreen, and then cut 2 50mm holes in the metal apron over the injectors, then when finished, waxoil and put a bung in the 2 holes, finally refitting the trim hiding them. Simples!! Yehh Right!:doh

I have had that trim panel off that's quite easy, to cut the holes you need one of those cutters that you used to use for fitting the old fashioned wing mirrors. You drill a 1/4" hole then the two cutting halves one either side are pulled together when you tighten the bolt through the hole if you get my drift.
Best of luck with the viewing hope it's a tidy one!

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

I have had that trim panel off that's quite easy, to cut the holes you need one of those cutters that you used to use for fitting the old fashioned wing mirrors. You drill a 1/4" hole then the two cutting halves one either side are pulled together when you tighten the bolt through the hole if you get my drift.
Best of luck with the viewing hope it's a tidy one!

The old Q max cutter... I have a couple of them one cuts rectangles for an old lcd display, and a couple of round ones, but they are only about 30mm.

Fingers crossed on the car, it's up in Norfolk, so a bit of a run.

Sent from my SM-T705 using Tapatalk

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

Wow, that was a waste of time... it was a dog... My T2 is in better condition than that was, and it was supposed to be the replacement!

Have a look at this...
http://benkempltd.co.uk/inventory/jeep-grand-cherokee-2-7-crd-overland-4x4-5dr/

Looks nice to start with...

Up close is a different story though...

The first thing I spotted was the windscreen was covered in what looked like raindrops... on the inside!!! Noticed it on the other windows as well. I dread to think how damp it was on the inside. My T2 gets a bit damp after I have been wading, or climbing in and out with wet feet, but it never ends up with actual drips of condensation running down the windows. It does sometimes get them on the sun roof, which normally drip off on Suz on the first bend, but I encourage that!:augie:lol

There are several rusty stone chips on the front of the bonnet and wing, the head lights have green algae all round them, the windscreen has a massive curved scratch on the drivers side, where the wiper has failed, and the outside metal end has rubbed the glass. Goodness only knows how anyone could drive a car with the metal of a wiper blade scratching across the glass, it puts my teeth on edge thinking about it.

All the window surround trims have massive rust bubbles.

The drivers seat is worn thread bare on the outside edge, and the suede is all bubbled and worn through.

When you look round the back, the towbar is very rusty, and the bumper scuff cover is just horrible.

We did not even bother to talk to the salesman, as I could not have listened to the BS excuses.

So, back to the drawing board, the good news is, we now know we don't want an Overland, as the Suede seats really wear badly, and mark up, so will stick with the Limited.