Info needed please

[elty001]

Fit the spacers for now and save up for some steelies then sell on the spacers once you have got wheels sorted.
I am wanting some 10 j steelies but can't afford any just now so keeping my spacers on until I can:thumb2

 

[AlexD333]

I need to be careful here, if I go and buy steel wheels and they still rub I'm gonna be pissed :lol

Surely I could search (or ask this comp) for a negative offset wheel?

 

[The Patrolman]

the prob with spacers is they stress everything more than normal, Rick

If you change the wheel to one with a greater offset or fit wheel spacers the net effect is the same. The tyre sits further out from the bearing than standard.

I need some +30mm spacers so might just bid on the ones mentioned earlier. Alex if you want them and want to bid let me know so we are not bidding against each other as I'm not too bothered but for £60 they are what I'm after:thumb2

 

[kitchenman]

To my thinking moving the contact point further away from the bearing the load must increase
Would the insurance company accept this?

 

[AlexD333]

To my thinking moving the contact point further away from the bearing the load must increase
Would the insurance company accept this?

Already thought of this, I believe you would need wheel arch extenders to cover the protruding wheels. Not sure what else :nenau

 

[rustic]

... the prob with spacers is they stress everything more than normal, Rick

In the same way, so will negative offset wheels. :doh

The centre of the point load from the tyres is now further out, thus putting a greater force on the outer wheel bearing, and an increased force on the inner wheel bearing, which will be in opposition to the force on the outer.
In the 70's, mini owners were adding spacers, but wheel bearing failure was very common.

So what..
Expect increased wear on both bearings, the small play in the bearings will be exagerated due to the greater distance from the bearings, this will introduce a lot of wandering when driving.
The tracking and camber will also change if there is any play in the bearings, resulting in uneven tyre wear.

If you over adjust the bearings to remove any play, they might overheat, and fail.

Ball joints and track rod end wear, together with any steering box wear, will also be exaggerated whist driving.

If this occurs, then you need to limit your speed to a safe speed, probably better to have a guy walking in front with a red flag.:lol:lol:lol

So you might need to fit new bearings, new top and bottom ball joints, new track rod ends, new poly bushes etc.
The rear wheel bearings will also be affected, but the seal may fail early due to excess wear and LSD oil will then enter the rear brake drums. (This is what happened to mine when a rear bearing failed)...

Either way, now you are aware of the issues with spacers or negative offset wheels, you can monitor the play, and get the appropriate parts replaced, and adjustments made.

Note:-
The MOT tester will probably notice more play in the front wheels, because of the extra distance out from the bearings. exaggerating any other wear too
Something else to add to the list.:doh

 

[Fez_uk]

Think standard terrano rims have positive offset anyway rustic, Not saying both are ok, all depends on the offset and how and hard much you drive it. But parts will wear faster.

Main issue with spacers I have is theres an extra set if nuts to come loose (if it's that spacer type) which you can't check unless you take the wheel off.

 

[elty001]

I used locktite when I fitted my spacers.

 

[russell.huffer]

The Tyres are too big, if you fit spacers or negative offset wheels you will knock out wheel bearings so not really an option. Smaller Tyres is the way To go, cost wise I think you will find cutting through the chassis is the most expensive.

Kind regards

Russell.

 

[AlexD333]

The Tyres are too big, if you fit spacers or negative offset wheels you will knock out wheel bearings so not really an option. Smaller Tyres is the way To go, cost wise I think you will find cutting through the chassis is the most expensive.

Kind regards

Russell.

Tyres are not too big, elty is running 33's make it fit is running 35's

as mentioned its the offset of the wheels rubbing when on articulation :thumb2

EDIT - im running 32's

 

[Lazy-Ferret]

With regards to the bearings, I have often wondered about this. I understand how spacers will "up" the bearing wear, but not how wider wheels, with the correct offset should do this.

I can see that if you take the standard wheel, and just move it out on spacers by 2", that you are putting a twisting torque on the bearings, making a lever that is pushing up on the front bearing, and down on the rear one. This has to be bad.

Surely though, if you just fit wider tyres, and you keep the same amount of tyre on the inside of the bearing, then there should not really be that much extra load on the bearings.

My thinking is, very simplified, if the wheel is 8" wide, and the bearing is 2" over all, then with a wheel with no offset, you have 2" on the inside of the bearing, 2" under the bearing, and 4" on the outside. If you up the wheels to 10", and put in a 2" offset, then you still have 2 inches on the inside of the bearing, 2" under the bearing, and now have 6" on the outside. Why would that put any more wear on the bearing?

Tyres are not too big, elty is running 33's make it fit is running 35's

as mentioned its the offset of the wheels rubbing when on articulation :thumb2

EDIT - im running 32's

What I do not understand in Alex's case, is how his wheel size got larger

What is the actual size of the tyres, I know mine are 265/70 x 16, which means the width of the tyre is 265mm give or take a small amount. the 70% profile means that overall the hight of the wall with respect to the width of the tyre is 70% of 265mm, so the wall is 186mm high, so with my tyres, I end up with around 777mm overall wheel diameter, which is 30.5", and I get no rubbing. So basically, using standard number rounding, I could say I am running on 31's, which is the standard size for my car.

I know a lot of people, when they want to increase the diameter, just fit a bigger width tyre, which by default, makes the tyre diameter larger, when really, you should only be adjusting the profile, so instead of 70%, you should go for 80%, which would give 830mm (32.5") overall wheel, but the width would remain the same, and therefore, in theory, not cause fouling.

So in Alex's case, is the tyre rubbing because the width is greater now he has fitted bigger tyres, or is it because he has increased the articulation, and now the wheel is just getting to places it was never designed to get to. From the pictures, it looks like the tyres are rubbing regardless, so it must be a width issue, and while spacers would solve this, the best way for the long term survivability of the cars mechanics is to either move the tyres onto different wheels with a different offset, moving the tyre away from the body, and hoping it does not then hit the outside of the wheel arch, or better still, spend lots and lots of dish, and get new tyres that are thinner, with a much larger profile.

 

[AlexD333]

With regards to the bearings, I have often wondered about this. I understand how spacers will "up" the bearing wear, but not how wider wheels, with the correct offset should do this.

I can see that if you take the standard wheel, and just move it out on spacers by 2", that you are putting a twisting torque on the bearings, making a lever that is pushing up on the front bearing, and down on the rear one. This has to be bad.

Surely though, if you just fit wider tyres, and you keep the same amount of tyre on the inside of the bearing, then there should not really be that much extra load on the bearings.

My thinking is, very simplified, if the wheel is 8" wide, and the bearing is 2" over all, then with a wheel with no offset, you have 2" on the inside of the bearing, 2" under the bearing, and 4" on the outside. If you up the wheels to 10", and put in a 2" offset, then you still have 2 inches on the inside of the bearing, 2" under the bearing, and now have 6" on the outside. Why would that put any more wear on the bearing?




What I do not understand in Alex's case, is how his wheel size got larger

What is the actual size of the tyres, I know mine are 265/70 x 16, which means the width of the tyre is 265mm give or take a small amount. the 70% profile means that overall the hight of the wall with respect to the width of the tyre is 70% of 265mm, so the wall is 186mm high, so with my tyres, I end up with around 777mm overall wheel diameter, which is 30.5", and I get no rubbing. So basically, using standard number rounding, I could say I am running on 31's, which is the standard size for my car.

I know a lot of people, when they want to increase the diameter, just fit a bigger width tyre, which by default, makes the tyre diameter larger, when really, you should only be adjusting the profile, so instead of 70%, you should go for 80%, which would give 830mm (32.5") overall wheel, but the width would remain the same, and therefore, in theory, not cause fouling.

So in Alex's case, is the tyre rubbing because the width is greater now he has fitted bigger tyres, or is it because he has increased the articulation, and now the wheel is just getting to places it was never designed to get to. From the pictures, it looks like the tyres are rubbing regardless, so it must be a width issue, and while spacers would solve this, the best way for the long term survivability of the cars mechanics is to either move the tyres onto different wheels with a different offset, moving the tyre away from the body, and hoping it does not then hit the outside of the wheel arch, or better still, spend lots and lots of dish, and get new tyres that are thinner, with a much larger profile.

Cheers my dears, nice write up. Well me Elty and Steve were all lined up together, Steve is on 31's mine are bigger at 32 and also smaller than Eltys at 33, mine were advertised as 32's and are certaintly bigger than 31's and smaller than 33's :thumb2

I cant remember for sure but seem to remember it rubbing only when offroading (before the rear arbs were removed)

removing the rear arb has obviously given it a huge amount of flex but I dont believe this to be the issue. The issue lies with the wheels I have chosen, they came off an Mitsubishi L200. We did encounter problems when going to fit these, the studs were quite short for the nut and also the shape of the alloy prevented us from fitting the original nuts.

I am going to ring the tyre/wheel place shortly and ask for their advise, but am thinking of getting a negative offset set of steel wheels, the question is, by how much :nenau

 

[Barrbeast]

I am going to ring the tyre/wheel place shortly and ask for their advise, but am thinking of getting a negative offset set of steel wheels, the question is, by how much :nenau

Alex mate, nobody, not even the tyre place, will be able to tell you that without knowing the exact size of the tyre eg. mine are 265/75/16, (we need to know the width) and the offset of your original wheels...

 

[Fez_uk]

lazy ferret, in basic terms Wider tyres & wheel = more weight

Puts more stress on bearings, steering, suspension etc

 

[Fez_uk]

Alex you want minimum offset -10 or -20 will do it. But the chances of finding that offset without paying a few quid extra for that offset are low as most are -30.

You will always get some rubbing on the body work, Unless you make your arches bigger.

 

[elty001]

I think your main problem Alex,is the offset of the wheels you have on now.
combined with the tyre size its causing yours to rub on full articulation.
not 100% sure on your tyre size but i think they are 265/75/16.metric equivalent to 32 11.50 16.
when I had this size tyre on standard terrano 16 inch rims they where fine on the rear but rubbed on the steering arm on the bottom of the pas box so thats when I fitted 30mm spacers to give it the clearance.

 

[AlexD333]

I think your main problem Alex,is the offset of the wheels you have on now.
combined with the tyre size its causing yours to rub on full articulation.
not 100% sure on your tyre size but i think they are 265/75/16.metric equivalent to 32 11.50 16.
when I had this size tyre on standard terrano 16 inch rims they where fine on the rear but rubbed on the steering arm on the bottom of the pas box so thats when I fitted 30mm spacers to give it the clearance.

yes they are 265/75/16 :thumb2

and I dont mind the arches rubbing id just cut them, but the arches are not rubbing, this is the chassis and the floor under the seats rubbing. It will eventually go through if I dont do something about it

Im pretty sure i've (fez) answered my own question, i need wheels with an offset of -20 or -30 and if this rubs on the arches then out comes the grinder again! :sly

my fronts also catch on full lock slightly aswell

 

[AlexD333]

This is getting a bit tricky on budget, unfortunately I might have to get spacers for the rear and new studs, even if only a temp fix.

I do love the look of my wheels so gives me incentive to keep em :lol

is a spacer going to make much difference compared to an offset wheel? :nenau

Im going to open a new thread about spacers n studs :thumb2

 

[rustic]

...My thinking is, very simplified, if the wheel is 8" wide, and the bearing is 2" over all, then with a wheel with no offset, you have 2" on the inside of the bearing, 2" under the bearing, and 4" on the outside. If you up the wheels to 10", and put in a 2" offset, then you still have 2 inches on the inside of the bearing, 2" under the bearing, and now have 6" on the outside. Why would that put any more wear on the bearing?...

You have to assume that the weight of the car is carried by the centre of the tyre /wheel for your calculations, and in your scenario, the centre of the tyre has moved outwards, hence the greater load.
Hope that explains it.:thumbs

Rustic

 

[AlexD333]

You have to assume that the weight of the car is carried by the centre of the tyre /wheel for your calculations, and in your scenario, the centre of the tyre has moved outwards, hence the greater load.
Hope that explains it.:thumbs

Rustic

Very good explanation actually! :thumb2