fuel pump[ again]

[Smegg]

hi, would it be possible to replace the fuel pump 180 degrees out of time, ive lined up the fuel pump and crank timeing marks and still no fuel from no1 injector i,m defo doing something wrong/ help

 

[Timbo_1975]

Yes you could line it up 180deg out, but you ought to get fuel at the injectors nevertheless.

 

[Smegg]

thank,s yet again mate, there does seem to be a small amount of fuel coming out injector i can,t see it having any thing to do with sensor so i,ll open no2 inj and take the gear off the pump give the pump afull turn. i opened the mini filter banjo and plenty of fuel there, sols seem to be okay i,ll let you know how i get on thanks again
RAY.

 

[Smegg]

ok, tried all that no joy, also noticed timeing marks and keyway dont line up to well, the gear i,m using is the one off the elec pump [ i didnt get the gear with the mech pump ] could the slot or t/marks be differant on this one. its got no37 cast into it, hope some one can help.

 

[Timbo_1975]

Hmmm I've only just realised you are the guy who is swapping from TDi pump to TD...!

I've only done the swap where the TD pump came complete with gear, and without looking closely they both looked the same. It wouldnt surprise me however to find that the keyway is in a different position between the two gears?

You ought to be able to establish with a dial gauge or even common sense and a spare injector on no1 line that it is spraying fuel as the crank pulley passes the TDC timing mark. Highlight the mark with some tippex.

In any case, with slightly out timing, it should at least try to fire, or with very wrong timing I would expect to see white smoke from the exhaust after a bit of cranking IF the TD pump is indeed injecting fuel.

Sometimes if they've sat dry for some time, they can be a sod to purge of air, in which case a tow down the road, or acouple of *SMALL* zaps of brake cleaner / WD40 into the intake to raise the cranking speed will effect a cure :>

 

[Smegg]

hi, timbo did as you suggested ,success she fired up at first turn today the injs are abit noisey but abit of fine tuneing should do it to get it going i temp connected both sol wires too ignition live. [you get a five second delay before the engine stops after you turn it off] as you said i now need to connect the black and white plug wire to the black sol wire that will sort it. many thanks for all your help.
RAY

 

[Timbo_1975]

Just to reiterate in case i was not clear- the Pump Adv solonoid needs to be powered *ONLY* when cranking, and the 'run' sol obviously needs to be powered all the time the ignition in on.

Not surprised it is rattley if the adv sol is powered all the time!!!

How does it drive compared to the fly-by-wire setup?

 

[Smegg]

hi mate yes it drives great havnt taken her far yet but the exhaust is clear even when reved bit of a jiggle on tacho and as you said mil light stays on. only thing you have to look at is on my 97 tdi theyve put a servo pump right under the fuel pump, so you have to remove it to get at the lower nut on fuel pump, my mav had it on the back of alt, dont know where it is on yours. i,m sorting out that wire today,there,s a lad on forum having same type of trouble. thanks again mate.
RAY

 

[Timbo_1975]

Had no problems with a cranked-S spanner. Getting it back on with abit fiddley though.

Don't forget that your TD pump will be set up to fuel for about 100hp, so you can open it up abit if you wish.

Oh and dont forget the boost aneroid connection - either drill & tap a barb into the inlet manifold or tee it into the wastegate hose.

 

[ukbob]

Had no problems with a cranked-S spanner. Getting it back on with abit fiddley though.

Don't forget that your TD pump will be set up to fuel for about 100hp, so you can open it up abit if you wish.

Oh and dont forget the boost aneroid connection - either drill & tap a barb into the inlet manifold or tee it into the wastegate hose.

Timbo sorry to butt in will the later automatic still run with an earlier manual mechanical pump?

 

[Timbo_1975]

Timbo sorry to butt in will the later automatic still run with an earlier manual mechanical pump?

Hmm. Given that the 'box is electronically controlled, and i think definately talks with the engine ECU, i would say that such a swap would be much more difficult if not impossible, unless you are VERY handy with wiring, and have indepth knowledge of how the two talk to one another.

Perhaps Ray can shed some light on this area?

 

[ukbob]

Hmm. Given that the 'box is electronically controlled, and i think definately talks with the engine ECU, i would say that such a swap would be much more difficult if not impossible, unless you are VERY handy with wiring, and have indepth knowledge of how the two talk to one another.

Perhaps Ray can shed some light on this area?

I had a nasty feeling that was coming.I had a think about it and it dawned on me this was not such an easy task.

 

[makeitfit]

My turn to hijack now
Timbo, could the mechanical pump be fitted to my TDi and cranked up to get me more fuel ?:naughty

 

[Timbo_1975]

Course it could, but the Mech pump has 10mm elements just like the VP37, so when both are maxxed out, the volume will be the same.

Changing the nozzles is the best move ive found once you want to go above ~150hp safely. (other mods necessary at the same time)

 

[ukbob]

Hmm. Given that the 'box is electronically controlled, and i think definately talks with the engine ECU, i would say that such a swap would be much more difficult if not impossible, unless you are VERY handy with wiring, and have indepth knowledge of how the two talk to one another.

Perhaps Ray can shed some light on this area?

I think the way to go will be a second hand pump and have the ecu opened to run it.
What do you think?

 

[Timbo_1975]

I think the way to go will be a second hand pump and have the ecu opened to run it.
What do you think?

I don't follow? If you replace the VP37 with a working replacement, just plug it in, and it'll work.

 

[ukbob]

I don't follow? If you replace the VP37 with a working replacement, just plug it in, and it'll work.

Well that's even better then as I thought they were coded.I have found one for £50.00 so its bingo!

 

[rayf3262]

Hmm. Given that the 'box is electronically controlled, and i think definately talks with the engine ECU, i would say that such a swap would be much more difficult if not impossible, unless you are VERY handy with wiring, and have indepth knowledge of how the two talk to one another.

Perhaps Ray can shed some light on this area?

If considering a change to a mechanical IP on an automatic transmission vehicle, the following points need consideration:

The TCM for the auto box relies on a few shared (with ECM) signals from the throttle unit in order to evaluate driver load demand:
1) the TPS (throttle position)
2) Idle switch
3) Full switch
All of these signals are derived from the original fly by wire throttle assembly, so at the very least this would have to remain and the linkage to the new mechanical IP grafted to this assembly.
Not a trivial job!

Replacing the throttle assembly with the original mech. IP throttle assembly will not do the job for an automatic with a TCM, although the engine would run fine.

 

[Timbo_1975]

If considering a change to a mechanical IP on an automatic transmission vehicle, the following points need consideration:

The TCM for the auto box relies on a few shared (with ECM) signals from the throttle unit in order to evaluate driver load demand:
1) the TPS (throttle position)
2) Idle switch
3) Full switch
All of these signals are derived from the original fly by wire throttle assembly, so at the very least this would have to remain and the linkage to the new mechanical IP grafted to this assembly.
Not a trivial job!

Replacing the throttle assembly with the original mech. IP throttle assembly will not do the job for an automatic with a TCM, although the engine would run fine.

I reckon the ECU could be fooled into thinking it still has an inj pump still attached relatively easily by butchering a fubarred pump, retaining the TPS, idle and WOT switches on the pedal, but grafting a cable on to the side. It'd be important to keep a fully working MAF. That way actual engine speed and load would mimic what the ECU thinks is happening so it'd probably work!


That said, a such a 'transplant' would give an un-guarenteed result until you'd done the work and tried it!

It would really be the work for a diesel enginneer not the home mechanic...

 

[ukbob]

I reckon the ECU could be fooled into thinking it still has an inj pump still attached relatively easily by butchering a fubarred pump, retaining the TPS, idle and WOT switches on the pedal, but grafting a cable on to the side. It'd be important to keep a fully working MAF. That way actual engine speed and load would mimic what the ECU thinks is happening so it'd probably work!


That said, a such a 'transplant' would give an un-guarenteed result until you'd done the work and tried it!

It would really be the work for a diesel enginneer not the home mechanic...

Well chaps this the way I am going the pump turned out to be a Zexel once I had got it off so its going to be a mechanical pump and graft the cable to the peddle.I have had the pumped checked and it is knackered repair will be over a grand.Also had a chat with the man who checked the pump and he thinks as long as I keep the fly by wire throttle system there is no reason it shouldn't work.The Zexel is also coded so even with a second hand pump I would need the key and ECU.