lets disguss the crag, glass or 4x4 response thing

[extreme-4x4]

it appears to me although we have members officials from these bodies. within the club.
its not exactly promoted or discussed that much, im interested (honest)
but what fun stuff do they have in store for us if we join up.

the conversation of behaving nicely often comes up, but that is usually when someone has messed up. so this is basically your chance to promote your way of doing things

id like to join other clubs as a matter of interest id like to have fun without upsetting someone else on here.

so what can we expect as new members
will we get to have fun
will we get to do challenging things

i have only seen the bit where people get told off for not doing things right. you only get to drive down lanes that if im honest my daughters lowered car could drive down easily.
no one wants to share information or its closely guarded
everyone seems so stuck up about it all.

we all have to start somewhere so come on invite us in to your secret world. it will be a nicer place if we work together surelly

[Deleted Member D]

Originally Posted by extreme-4x4

it appears to me although we have members officials from these bodies. within the club.
its not exactly promoted or discussed that much, im interested (honest)
but what fun stuff do they have in store for us if we join up.

the conversation of behaving nicely often comes up, but that is usually when someone has messed up. so this is basically your chance to promote your way of doing things

id like to join other clubs as a matter of interest id like to have fun without upsetting someone else on here.

so what can we expect as new members
will we get to have fun
will we get to do challenging things

i have only seen the bit where people get told off for not doing things right. you only get to drive down lanes that if im honest my daughters lowered car could drive down easily.
no one wants to share information or its closely guarded
everyone seems so stuck up about it all.

we all have to start somewhere so come on invite us in to your secret world. it will be a nicer place if we work together surelly

The bit where you say "do something without upsetting others" is impossible.
Some folk just come on these forums to look for trouble.
They cant bear to see others having fun without them. To them its impossible.
They shove officialdom in your face to show you their importance in our choosen activity.
Little do they realise they are the very downfall of it all.
They kick you in the bollocks rather than put their arms around you and help.
Joining these clubs has had its appeal but I have never been so incriminated in all my life since joining them. Ridiculous.
Any rode, onwards & upwards men.
HERES TO THE PRICE OF FREEDOM.

[lacroupade]

Yep - live and let live.

I mean if anyone seriously thinks for a minute that the forestry companies give a toss about a couple of cars driving along their little-used tracks in the middle of nowhere then they are mad.

And I live and let live - you've seen the river round my gaff...I have riparian rights over about 700 yds of it...its not a navigable waterway and these facts mean anyone boating on it is trespassing, but I don't bother all the kayakers that come down it, so long as they don't pull up on the beach and start a barby! They come and go and cause no trouble so why get upset about it?

Lifes too short!

[lacroupade]

Originally Posted by extreme-4x4

it appears to me although we have members officials from these bodies. within the club.
its not exactly promoted or discussed that much, im interested (honest)
but what fun stuff do they have in store for us if we join up.

the conversation of behaving nicely often comes up, but that is usually when someone has messed up. so this is basically your chance to promote your way of doing things

id like to join other clubs as a matter of interest id like to have fun without upsetting someone else on here.

so what can we expect as new members
will we get to have fun
will we get to do challenging things

i have only seen the bit where people get told off for not doing things right. you only get to drive down lanes that if im honest my daughters lowered car could drive down easily.
no one wants to share information or its closely guarded
everyone seems so stuck up about it all.

we all have to start somewhere so come on invite us in to your secret world. it will be a nicer place if we work together surelly

To be fair Ex, when people like Nathan have been asked, they've suggested routes and in fact we've used them, so there are people happy to help....and the debate last time helped to focus on good driving principles if nothing else.

I think so long as we ask for guidance about usable routes and don't condone driving on ROWs where vehicles are banned (and we never have), we are doing our bit to support things.

Anything else is our affair until such time as somebody proves it to be an issue.

[extreme-4x4]

very true.... nath was and still is very friendly and helpfull.

terra is too sometimes, i know they paid to be members of whatever clubs they are in , so why give it to us for free

but you still need to show us what we will get if we join. im open minded still . i doubt we are the only ones who want fun

lets face it i have looked and one site is still showing the foot and mouth thing from 2007 on the home page

its not about who's done what or where. i dont want to get in to name calling. lets just debate the whole crag glass thing
for everyone to have there say

nicely please

lets learn from one another no need to fall out

[nejones]

Look guys I know that I'm at the centre of all this upset at the moment.
I can live with that.
Its not cause I'm CRAG membership officer that I speak up when I believe something is wrong, its cause I believe that irresponsible Greenlaning/illegal offroading will bring the end to all Greenlaning one day.
I'll continue to be friendly and help where I can. Thats me.
Both CRAG and GLASS promote sensible driving of our legal vehicular row's.
Both lobby local and national government on 4x4 users behalf.
Both campaign for the responsible use of Greenlanes.
Both work hard to keep Greenlanes open by the means mentioned above and by volunteer projects.
Examples of such by CRAG can be seen in the footbridge on Sarn Helen steps. Diddlebury and Beambridge lanes aswell as shooting box, the wayfarer and others have all been repaired by CRAG members with funding coming from local authority. This year we have been given £20,000 to fund repairs to lanes by Shrops CC.
Do we have fun when we go out laning? You bet!!
I've been out today with CRAG and non CRAG members, I invited members from here along you'll recall, we have done some local lanes that were a good challenge and caused costly damage to our vehicles.
Anyone is welcome to join us, we just ask that you keep to the row, not going off piste unless its absolutely necessary to abate an obstruction. That also represents the principles of the organization I choose to support, CRAG.

NAthan

[Terranosaurus]

If you ask specific questions we can answer them but to just say tell me about it - why not read the websites.

GLASS

CRAG

these 2 organisations along with The Trail Riders Feeration run a national catalogue of rights of way - Trailwise

The only place still showing Foot and Mouth is Wayfinder which is run by an individual not an organisation and is gradually falling out of use - see AndreK's recent post all about the history of Wayfinder/Wayfinder-Project/Trailwise.

4x4 Response is an altogethe different subject so does really want discussing along with rights of way information but the National Network webisite is HERE

[lacroupade]

Nathan I fully respect your point of view and agree with your view about irresponsible greenlaning. We don't indulge in that and we don't condone it. In fact as I've said, my experience here in Oxfordshire and in Wales is that the worst offenders in this respect are usually motorcyclists - certainly I have first hand experience of their stupid antics on ancient scheduled monument sites that helped Oxfordshire County Council justify closing the Ridgeway.

I also agree that driving on ROWs when they aren't vehicle authorised is irresponsible. We don't do or condone that either.

The only area I take issue with is this reference to 'illegal offroading'. As we've said before, we wouldn't expect to drive through the Savernake Forest (except on its proper roads) because there are pedestrian ROWs there and lots of wandering Joe Public.

But this neck of the woods (scuse the pun) is way different. Witness the last time someone got stuck in the mud and had to cadge a lift 50 miles to his home, leaving his truck there overnight....unlocked.

If I drove my Z4 along those forest tracks (as I could, they aren't that bad) nobody would accuse me of 'illegal offroading'...I just think we are being a bit over-sensitive to the issue, and neither do I believe for a minute that me trespassing with my vehicle on a remote private forestry area has the remotest bearing on the closure of BOATs.

If the evidence exists that it does then someone needs to present it....but I don't think it does.

If a route gets closed its for one of two reasons: (i) the council cannot afford to maintain it so uses any lame excuse, or (ii) there are objections from other users with more clout than the likes of us. In neither case have I ever seen reference to "a naughty man who drove his car along a gravel track 20 miles from the nearest civilisation thus clearly influencing the issue"...

We just need to put things in perspective - people might wish to stick to the letter of the law, never speed, never have a brake light out, never nick a pencil from work, but some people like to push the limits a bit, and so long as it doesn't cause a demonstrable problem for others, whats the difficulty with that.

All I'm saying is, before passing judgement on us, people should gather the evidence that there is anything to judge in the first place.

Alternatively, if they don't like my reasoned argument, theres the "all property is theft" one to which I conveniently subscribe.

[nejones]

Paul I thank you for respecting my opinions on things but can I point out what I believe is a flaw in your reasoning?

Taken from your comments above 'I also agree that driving on ROWs when they aren't vehicle authorised is irresponsible. We don't do or condone that either.'
Isn't it therefore irresponsible to drive on private land where there are no vehicular row?
I would like to come and drive over your garden and riverbanks without your permission. I wont tell you when, I'll just turn up and hope that you as the landowner dont see me and that you dont mind. ok?

I dont think you'd appreciate that would you?

Same in principle as driving forest tracks where you ahve no right to be.

More of an issue than that though is going off piste on established vehicular row.
Look at SF. You've driven it a couple of times at least now. Its a classic lane that is being ruined by users going off the beaten track. Is there a need to go off piste on SF? No. People do it only to challenge themselves or their vehicle in the peaty muck, usually thinking that due to its remoteness they wont be spotted and they wont be hurting anyone.
SF is a lane that is being considered very closely by Powys/Dyfed authorities.
Powys CC do not need much of a reason to close lanes they are very anti 4x4. Try contacting them and asking for info on lanes as I have, they are very obstructive and will even charge for giving you an answer to an email.

Please cant we pull together to save our rights to drive the lanes.
If SF and Soar-y-Mynydd aren't challenging enough then you dont have to look far from you to find legit lanes that will keep you challenged for hours.

[lacroupade]

Now naughty boy, you're playing semantics!

Yes, I mean irresponsible in the context of driving on ROWs because you are breaking the law. Not to mention the fact that you are potentially damaging a surface intended for walkers (as opposed to tree-killing equipment!), as well as drawing attention (as has been evidenced) to misuse because Joe Public is around, and you might even accidentally harm one of them.

Driving on a private forest road is most definitely NOT irresponsible.

It does no damage of any consequence. There are no people around, and most of all - trespass is not a criminal act, its a civil tort.

And as I've said, I practice what I preach by letting the kayak turkeys paddle down my river.

And if you did come on to my land and drive around but left without leaving any traces, what harm is done?

Back at ya...

[elty001]

just been reading through this topic with interest.
we have a routes area on here where we can all put up the legal lanes that we know(been trying to get the mm on there but have failed)
if we all put in grid refs of the lanes we know we would soon have a good data base of where you can go.
have got most of mine onto google maps which i will post shortly to get things moving.

[nejones]

Maybe I'm starting to see where you're coming from

You dont drive Bridleways, footpaths or restricted byways. Thats good.

You do drive BOATS and ORPA'S thats ok too.

You will drive off a route off the BOAT or ORPA if it looks exciting/challenging/safe to do so (as in theres no one looking). Thats not good, not ok, not acceptable.

Forestry tracks? Well we cold debate this for hours, I'm not going to. But can I say that if anyone puts pics or vids of such activity on a website either a paid up one such as this or a free one such as Mud Club then you have to expect criticism for your actions.

Anyway Paul whats it like being a member of CRAG?
Has it benefitted you in any way?
Asking this not to catch you out but inline with the thread topic.

[nejones]

Originally Posted by elty001

just been reading through this topic with interest.
we have a routes area on here where we can all put up the legal lanes that we know(been trying to get the mm on there but have failed)
if we all put in grid refs of the lanes we know we would soon have a good data base of where you can go.
have got most of mine onto google maps which i will post shortly to get things moving.

Nice suggestion Elton.

La Crouppade already has access to legal routes through his membership to CRAG. He's free to share this info, as I do, with others.

[lacroupade]

Originally Posted by nejones

Maybe I'm starting to see where you're coming from

You dont drive Bridleways, footpaths or restricted byways. Thats good. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT

You do drive BOATS and ORPA'S thats ok too. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT

You will drive off a route off the BOAT or ORPA if it looks exciting/challenging/safe to do so (as in theres no one looking). Thats not good, not ok, not acceptable. ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT??? NOT SURE WHERE YOU GOT THAT NATH?

Forestry tracks? Well we cold debate this for hours, I'm not going to. But can I say that if anyone puts pics or vids of such activity on a website either a paid up one such as this or a free one such as Mud Club then you have to expect criticism for your actions. BUT I'LL KEEP ASKING WHY UNTIL SOMEONE GIVES ME A REASONED ANSWER??

Anyway Paul whats it like being a member of CRAG?
Has it benefitted you in any way? NOT YET TO BE HONEST AS I HAVEN'T HAD MUCH TIME, BUT I'M SURE IT WILL!!
Asking this not to catch you out but inline with the thread topic.

....................

[nejones]

Originally Posted by lacroupade

....................

I got that from the video and pics that Dadba posted. Both showing team wales and Dadba/Bukshot not sticking to the proper route on SF. Not abating obstacles either.

I think you've already had plenty of reasoned answers re driving forest tracks.

You havent answered my questions either.