coppers not displaying there numbers / id

extreme-4x4 · 19-04-2009, 23:10

id like to hear your views... here's mine

1, if i walked down the street wearing a balaclava i could be arrested certainly stopped and searched as i would be out and equipped for burglary, it would be fair to assume i was up to no good. if i was at a demonstration or alike id obviously be trying to hide my identity

2, the copper in the video pushing the bloke over. had his face covered not sure about displaying his numbers/ id.
but other video's show several coppers not showing there numbers / id

is it fair to assume they went out either looking for trouble or at least stir up / provoke trouble ?

now i dont want a police state. and i do beleive most coppers are doing a good job, after all ive not been robbed ever , ok i got beeten up once badly, but when i got my own back and then some , i was given the same "no response" that i got from them . so it worked out in the end
i think the ss branch orf the police force (traffic cops) have super powers to upset and rob joe public. and for me they are not very nice people
but then as a farther of a 22 year old girl, id hate to have the job of picking up the limbs of someones daughter of the road, then go and tell the parents thair kid wont be coming home.
so maybe they have a point, i just think they could enforce it a bit nicer

as for the roit type of police, the ones in the recent video's
why were the hiding there id's

1,some were planted to start trouble , so when it kicks off they can disperse the crowd ?

2 they removed them in case of people doing video's on phones?

i really cant think of a valid reason for the hiding id's or covering faces,
i do think, it will do a lot of harm to our civil rights , now this has happened
because when there is a protest or riot the police will be under very close scrutiny . imagine the bother we could be in ... if the police cant protect our civil rights in the event of some anachist, race riots or even johny forigner protesting against our society.

these recent video's have done nothing to make policing our safe society any easier.

on the other hand why shouldnt they hide id's they are there to protect us "joe public". how many protesters, football hooligans and yobs/hoodies hide there id's so they cant face prossecution. so maybe its fair

all i know its not a nice job, i wouldnt like to have to police rome riot, football mach, city centre on a friday night. or follow some junkie into a multi story.

i dont go out looking for trouble . ok i bend the rules but im not a nasty person. so i dont have much to do with coppers.

but i do think maybe its not such a bad thing covering hiding id's. they are one they all stand there for us. and if covering up lets them police safely and firmly then thats good with me... i feel safer

your thoughts ?

lacroupade · 19-04-2009, 23:24

I have to say I don't blame them. Peaceful protest is one thing, but we all know theres a hardcore of people there who just want to cause trouble....and its the old bill on the receiving end. I'm buggered if I'd stand in a line waiting to get bricked, bottled etc..

I think anyone who stays around when the going gets messy like it has, knows the risks they face...they should just go home, but they don't, they hang around to see whats going to happen, probably even cheer it on a bit, then complain when they get caught up.

And when you saw the more detailed video of that guy who had the heart attack - well he wasn't exactly minding his own business was he.

But frankly we are one of the lucky countries....I've seen street riots first hand in Toulouse not long ago and you get in the way of the police there at your absolute peril - and the general population support the way they operate pretty much. I legged it PDQ I can tell you....

I know I sound like a Daily Mail reader (I'm not - Daily Sport rules ok!) but unless you're a criminal or have criminal intent or are hanging around with criminals, you ain't got anything to worry about...

makeitfit · 19-04-2009, 23:39

Yep all the above but the police can use the amount of force they see fit for the event anyway

So NO they shouldn't cover their numbers

If hippie boy and crew want to mix it up a bit then plod can sort it with their big sticks n that, but fair play numbers ARE for the showing

Covered numbers just make me think they're going prepared!

extreme-4x4 · 19-04-2009, 23:47

yeah they are going prepared anyway(the coppers)... they got big sticks and gas etc

i dont hink its fair one copper could face prosecution cos he got cought on camera. they stand as one the law, when the ones they are protecting us from cover up and avoid prosecution

level playing field and all that.

unless they just pick up anyone covering up and arrest them for going prepared to incite etc. cos they are,

that would be fair

Deleted account DD · 20-04-2009, 07:02

First off I'll studiously avoid passing comment on the individual actions of the cops who are under investigation. I just don't know enough other than the snapshot views the press have touted.

Cant tell at the moment if they acted individually out of temper or were pictured dealing with the culmination of a significant problem.

Numbers covered up? no idea why . Perhaps numbers visible would have made them feel more accountable and think again before acting behind anonymity? on the other hand as in terrorist cases , some groups have sophisticated methods of tracing individuals. In the past nothing was worn on the outside of flameproof overalls such as nylon shoulder tabs because they'd melt and drip if fire came into the equation. As theyre now adorned with the obligatory hi viz I dont know.

On that topic, the "balaclavas" worn are flame/flash resistant and cover the gap between the top of the coveralls and bottom of the helmet. Similar to military gun crews or F1 drivers. Fire fighters have similar but heavier duty. Very useful when facing petrol bombs, the weapon of choice of many demonstrators. If you've ever been petrol bombed you'll appreciate that

they dont pause to let you get your ppe on , you go dressed ready.

I cant remember the exact number but theres been something like 150 complaints against the policing of G20. Around 100 were inadmissable because they were from 3rd parties watching TV and/or concerned regarding approved tactics. The remainder are clearly being taken seriously.

There were thousands of cops working central London that week.

Similar to Lacroupe & Toulouse I was in Cologne a few years back when there was a footie match on (bad choice of timing by me) Anyone who thinks the G20 policing was rough in any way should have been there.

Cops fully kitted out accomapnied by some rather nasty looking dogs (and I believe I saw water canons as I beat a retreat) simply surounded the trouble makers in the Square and advanced.

Deleted account DD · 20-04-2009, 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by extreme-4x4

1, if i walked down the street wearing a balaclava

At this time of year during the day it would just be presumed youre barking mad

lacroupade · 20-04-2009, 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

At this time of year during the day it would just be presumed youre barking mad

He gets chased by a lot of women.

lacroupade · 20-04-2009, 10:13

and fundamentally if you think about it, if all the police ever did in such situations was turned out in t-shirts and asked people "would you mind awfully not doing that old chap?" their reputation for enforcement would soon be in tatters and they'd be an even bigger target.

and the trouble is, their action is only necessary because the gov't has made a policy decision on something (or even failed to) that they know will be unpopular but its OK cos old bill will take the heat if push comes to shove....

Plus - and I forgot to mention this before, I blame the media bigtime for inflaming the situation. Look at the vid of that woman getting her legs whacked - not only was she clearly just milling about being a pain in the ass, but you could barely see what was going on for w*nkers waving cameras in everyones face.

zippy · 21-04-2009, 00:16

I think that the removal of ID is very suspect. I have seen it before and amounts to one thing - they are intending to break rules.

There were a load of w"*&^rs at the riots, who were inflaming the situation and only out for trouble.

But.... if the police cannot uphold the law themselves then it is a slippery road.

I have seen this done in the past during riots - a plastic bullet was fired at someones head (policy is that it should be no higher than the knee). The plastic bullet ripped this guy's face off - literally his face was hanging. No accountability with the plastic bullet - the same as a cop taking ID off.

Demonstration is a critical part of free society. Whilst violence cannot be tolerated and indeed could well be met with legitimate force by the state, it is not for individuals to choose what areas of their empolyment they compy with.

Dont want to offend but this is my opinion.

Regards
Lee

Deleted account DD · 21-04-2009, 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy

I think that the removal of ID is very suspect. I have seen it before and amounts to one thing - they are intending to break rules.

Apart from circumstances dictated by PACE of course, including for example anti terror ops where it is perfectly ok to decline details or not display or give collar number

extreme-4x4 · 21-04-2009, 08:22

my argument is, if one is hiding there id... they all should

if one is covering his face... they all should. what happens to the copper who has not been told to wear the anti petrol bomb kit

21-04-2009, 10:03

a long long time ago I thought the police were there to serve the 'public good' and my vague observations confirmed it ... these days I think they serve 'the state' .... imho we are very much like eastern germany under communist rule ....

lacroupade · 21-04-2009, 10:08

Which makes it all the more bizarre that the head honcho is now being called to account for the way he policed the demonstration that was a direct result of government policy!!! i.e. "we own you, we tell you what to do, but when the public doesn't like it, we make you the scapegoat...

And don't get me started on the nanny state ...ooh, a thread!

zippy · 21-04-2009, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacroupade

Which makes it all the more bizarre that the head honcho is now being called to account for the way he policed the demonstration that was a direct result of government policy!!! i.e. "we own you, we tell you what to do, but when the public doesn't like it, we make you the scapegoat...

And don't get me started on the nanny state ...ooh, a thread!

totally agree. Getting political here but there seems to have been much more of this such thing under Labour rule than there was under the conservative. This is just my observations and is probably way off.

Regards
Lee

lacroupade · 21-04-2009, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy

totally agree. Getting political here but there seems to have been much more of this such thing under Labour rule than there was under the conservative. This is just my observations and is probably way off.

Regards
Lee

TBH I think the majority of politicians are from the same grubby self-serving mould......if we had a parliament full of Michael Foots, Bolsover Beasts, Shirley Williams', Barbara Castles and so on, with a healthy balance of socialist/capitalist views (because this is 2009, not the end of victoriana) can you even begin to imagine what life could be like???

Too many politicians have no balls and no stomach to stand up for whats right, in case the leader or party says "boo!".....bloody sad in my opinion.

BTW, I didn't MEAN all those names to be Labour/SDP....just couldn't think of any ballsy tory politicians off the top of my head!! LOL

19-04-2009, 23:10	#1
extreme-4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: WALES Posts: 6,295	coppers not displaying there numbers / id id like to hear your views... here's mine 1, if i walked down the street wearing a balaclava i could be arrested certainly stopped and searched as i would be out and equipped for burglary, it would be fair to assume i was up to no good. if i was at a demonstration or alike id obviously be trying to hide my identity 2, the copper in the video pushing the bloke over. had his face covered not sure about displaying his numbers/ id. but other video's show several coppers not showing there numbers / id is it fair to assume they went out either looking for trouble or at least stir up / provoke trouble ? now i dont want a police state. and i do beleive most coppers are doing a good job, after all ive not been robbed ever , ok i got beeten up once badly, but when i got my own back and then some , i was given the same "no response" that i got from them . so it worked out in the end i think the ss branch orf the police force (traffic cops) have super powers to upset and rob joe public. and for me they are not very nice people but then as a farther of a 22 year old girl, id hate to have the job of picking up the limbs of someones daughter of the road, then go and tell the parents thair kid wont be coming home. so maybe they have a point, i just think they could enforce it a bit nicer as for the roit type of police, the ones in the recent video's why were the hiding there id's 1,some were planted to start trouble , so when it kicks off they can disperse the crowd ? 2 they removed them in case of people doing video's on phones? i really cant think of a valid reason for the hiding id's or covering faces, i do think, it will do a lot of harm to our civil rights , now this has happened because when there is a protest or riot the police will be under very close scrutiny . imagine the bother we could be in ... if the police cant protect our civil rights in the event of some anachist, race riots or even johny forigner protesting against our society. these recent video's have done nothing to make policing our safe society any easier. on the other hand why shouldnt they hide id's they are there to protect us "joe public". how many protesters, football hooligans and yobs/hoodies hide there id's so they cant face prossecution. so maybe its fair all i know its not a nice job, i wouldnt like to have to police rome riot, football mach, city centre on a friday night. or follow some junkie into a multi story. i dont go out looking for trouble . ok i bend the rules but im not a nasty person. so i dont have much to do with coppers. but i do think maybe its not such a bad thing covering hiding id's. they are one they all stand there for us. and if covering up lets them police safely and firmly then thats good with me... i feel safer your thoughts ?

19-04-2009, 23:24	#2
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	I have to say I don't blame them. Peaceful protest is one thing, but we all know theres a hardcore of people there who just want to cause trouble....and its the old bill on the receiving end. I'm buggered if I'd stand in a line waiting to get bricked, bottled etc.. I think anyone who stays around when the going gets messy like it has, knows the risks they face...they should just go home, but they don't, they hang around to see whats going to happen, probably even cheer it on a bit, then complain when they get caught up. And when you saw the more detailed video of that guy who had the heart attack - well he wasn't exactly minding his own business was he. But frankly we are one of the lucky countries....I've seen street riots first hand in Toulouse not long ago and you get in the way of the police there at your absolute peril - and the general population support the way they operate pretty much. I legged it PDQ I can tell you.... I know I sound like a Daily Mail reader (I'm not - Daily Sport rules ok!) but unless you're a criminal or have criminal intent or are hanging around with criminals, you ain't got anything to worry about...

19-04-2009, 23:39	#3
makeitfit Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: on the beach WEST WALES Vehicle: Maverick TDi BLACK mmm Posts: 15,136	Yep all the above but the police can use the amount of force they see fit for the event anyway So NO they shouldn't cover their numbers If hippie boy and crew want to mix it up a bit then plod can sort it with their big sticks n that, but fair play numbers ARE for the showing Covered numbers just make me think they're going prepared!

19-04-2009, 23:47	#4
extreme-4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: WALES Posts: 6,295	yeah they are going prepared anyway(the coppers)... they got big sticks and gas etc i dont hink its fair one copper could face prosecution cos he got cought on camera. they stand as one the law, when the ones they are protecting us from cover up and avoid prosecution level playing field and all that. unless they just pick up anyone covering up and arrest them for going prepared to incite etc. cos they are, that would be fair

20-04-2009, 07:02	#5
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	First off I'll studiously avoid passing comment on the individual actions of the cops who are under investigation. I just don't know enough other than the snapshot views the press have touted. Cant tell at the moment if they acted individually out of temper or were pictured dealing with the culmination of a significant problem. Numbers covered up? no idea why . Perhaps numbers visible would have made them feel more accountable and think again before acting behind anonymity? on the other hand as in terrorist cases , some groups have sophisticated methods of tracing individuals. In the past nothing was worn on the outside of flameproof overalls such as nylon shoulder tabs because they'd melt and drip if fire came into the equation. As theyre now adorned with the obligatory hi viz I dont know. On that topic, the "balaclavas" worn are flame/flash resistant and cover the gap between the top of the coveralls and bottom of the helmet. Similar to military gun crews or F1 drivers. Fire fighters have similar but heavier duty. Very useful when facing petrol bombs, the weapon of choice of many demonstrators. If you've ever been petrol bombed you'll appreciate that they dont pause to let you get your ppe on , you go dressed ready. I cant remember the exact number but theres been something like 150 complaints against the policing of G20. Around 100 were inadmissable because they were from 3rd parties watching TV and/or concerned regarding approved tactics. The remainder are clearly being taken seriously. There were thousands of cops working central London that week. Similar to Lacroupe & Toulouse I was in Cologne a few years back when there was a footie match on (bad choice of timing by me) Anyone who thinks the G20 policing was rough in any way should have been there. Cops fully kitted out accomapnied by some rather nasty looking dogs (and I believe I saw water canons as I beat a retreat) simply surounded the trouble makers in the Square and advanced.

20-04-2009, 10:13	#8
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	and fundamentally if you think about it, if all the police ever did in such situations was turned out in t-shirts and asked people "would you mind awfully not doing that old chap?" their reputation for enforcement would soon be in tatters and they'd be an even bigger target. and the trouble is, their action is only necessary because the gov't has made a policy decision on something (or even failed to) that they know will be unpopular but its OK cos old bill will take the heat if push comes to shove.... Plus - and I forgot to mention this before, I blame the media bigtime for inflaming the situation. Look at the vid of that woman getting her legs whacked - not only was she clearly just milling about being a pain in the ass, but you could barely see what was going on for w*nkers waving cameras in everyones face.

21-04-2009, 00:16	#9
zippy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NI Vehicle: 01 terrano 2.7 lwb Posts: 210	I think that the removal of ID is very suspect. I have seen it before and amounts to one thing - they are intending to break rules. There were a load of w"*&^rs at the riots, who were inflaming the situation and only out for trouble. But.... if the police cannot uphold the law themselves then it is a slippery road. I have seen this done in the past during riots - a plastic bullet was fired at someones head (policy is that it should be no higher than the knee). The plastic bullet ripped this guy's face off - literally his face was hanging. No accountability with the plastic bullet - the same as a cop taking ID off. Demonstration is a critical part of free society. Whilst violence cannot be tolerated and indeed could well be met with legitimate force by the state, it is not for individuals to choose what areas of their empolyment they compy with. Dont want to offend but this is my opinion. Regards Lee

21-04-2009, 08:22	#11
extreme-4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: WALES Posts: 6,295	my argument is, if one is hiding there id... they all should if one is covering his face... they all should. what happens to the copper who has not been told to wear the anti petrol bomb kit

21-04-2009, 10:03	#12
zhorian Guest Posts: n/a	a long long time ago I thought the police were there to serve the 'public good' and my vague observations confirmed it ... these days I think they serve 'the state' .... imho we are very much like eastern germany under communist rule ....

21-04-2009, 10:08	#13
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	Which makes it all the more bizarre that the head honcho is now being called to account for the way he policed the demonstration that was a direct result of government policy!!! i.e. "we own you, we tell you what to do, but when the public doesn't like it, we make you the scapegoat... And don't get me started on the nanny state ...ooh, a thread!