A rant

Lazy-Ferret · 01-10-2019, 00:38

We have lived in this house for 19 years, and when we moved in, the kitchen had been done a few years before, but was in lovely condition, and to our taste. Over the years, it's got old, coupled with a burst pipe, which got into the chipboard of the cabinets, and caused them to expand, so it was looking steadily more and more shabby. We had the odd door fall off, but I was able to repair it, and keep it looking respectable, but I was now repairing repairs.

We decided the time had come for a new kitchen, and this may sound daft, but neither of us has ever bought a kitchen before, so it was a pretty daunting task trying to find out what we needed. After looking at loads of places, and getting various designs, we could only find "that will do" layouts, and nothing really felt like we wanted to part with the silly money involved, for what they were offering.

Finally, we went to Wren, and for the first time, a company came up with a design that ticked all the boxes.

Now, to do this, the old kitchen needed ripping out, and basically starting again from the ground up. Although Wren offer a fitting service, they do not offer new electrics, floor laying, new ceiling, and modified plumbing etc.. Also, we wanted to have a new heating system installed, which would be moved from the kitchen wall, into the old airing cupboard upstairs.

So Suz went online, and using a local Farcebook group got a recommended builder, who said he could do all the work we needed.

Well... I won't bore you with all the issues, just to sum up...

The tiles on the floor are not level, some sticking up 5mm higher than the ones next to them.
In several places the beige tile adhesive sticks up above the black grout, and in many places the grout has been missed completely.

The electrical sockets are crooked, and also not in line with each other along the work top.

Loads of issues with the waste plumbing, including mixing sizes, missing seals, and using glue and sealant to try and cover bodges.

He put plaster board sheets up on the ceiling, but did not tape the joints, so they are already splitting, and he just spodged plaster over the screws, so there are lumps all over the ceiling.

The base cabinets were placed very badly, when the guy came out to measure up for the surface, he pointed out that the cabinets were 40mm out of line with each other, and I spotted that one of the gaps for the tumble dryer was not actually wide enough.

He painted the walls, which were still not re-plastered from where the old tiles were removed, and got paint all over the new units.

The wall units are screwed to the wall, without using rawlplugs, and he has not used any packers, so they are twisted. Also many of the screws are sticking out, as they did not actually drive all the way into the wall.

He has chipped all the cut edges of the panels, and even worse, installed the cut side down on the floor, so the bare edge will get wet every time we wash the floor, and don't even mention the pelmets, which are diabolical.

Basically, the list just goes on and on.

Needless to say, he won't be coming back, and I am now trying to sort out the issues, but the whole point of getting a builder in, was my joint pains make it very difficult to do a lot of the jobs.

We have made a lot of progress, and even got Suz involved in doing the grouting, as that really does kill my wrists.

The main problem we have now found is, while he rewired the kitchen, and fitted a new consumer unit, he lied, and is not actually certified, so has not informed the relevant people, and we do not have a certificate, should we sell the house in the future.

I feel so let down, we used Suz's inheritance from her dad to buy the kitchen, and it's terrible.

I did have a few concerns as he was working, but I did not want to interfere, as I assumed that he knew what he was doing, and just because it was not the way I would do it, does not necessarily mean it not another way of doing it, but I wish I had now.

jims-terrano · 01-10-2019, 00:51

Oh no Clive, you’ve been stung by a real cowboy there. Assuming you’ve tackled him about it. Is there anybody you can contact like trading standards?

It’s terrible having to rely on other people to do what is supposed to be a professional job. We have been let down with inferior workmanship several times and until I regain fitness we will be stuck dependant on trades people. Had the dreaded double glazing sales people in over last few months, one local company the lady simply wrote a figure on a business card as a quote.

Happy days, we are all here to offer support Clive even if it is just to listen.

macabethiel · 01-10-2019, 03:17

I feel for you mate and know what you mean about finding someone competent in the first place. We went through some similar issues with our house.

We moved into our present house in March 1984 - the kitchen like yours was pretty good at the time being one marketed at the local Hillards Supermarket where a promotion had taken place.

The wall tiles were that design that had the hidden 'Chicken' in the pattern - white with green pattern. We had not seen the Chicken part until a friend pointed them out - we laughed about it. The next day I noticed that some of the 'Chickens' were upside down! lol

It was dated by 1991 the white parts were yellow with handles falling off etc, it had some badly swollen chip board from various small water leaks over the years particularly the sink base unit. We decided to have a new Kitchen that we bought from an excellent firm in Burton on Trent - we could not afford new wall tiles so stuck with them. A builder that my wife met in the pub where she worked part time gave us a quote for building our double garage and for fitting the new kitchen.

The Builder was on equal weekly stage payments - I made the mistake of not making the final payment larger. He walked off the job with the Garage roof needing ridge tiles fitting, a steel lintel that was not level etc. Only half the wall units had been fitted none level etc.
He never came back as he was going personally bankrupt - we never made the last stage payment.

We were lucky enough to get the Contractor that had built a new Office Block where the wife worked (they were doing the snagging list) to put a couple of blokes on the job to finish the Garage for cash in hand. I refitted all the wall cupboards myself.

We had a new kitchen after the fire fitted by the Contractor as part of the insurance claim, although its only a fairly basic Howdens one it has been fitted very well in most areas but not perfect. This Kitchen will be our last one unless we live into our 90's lol

Lazy-Ferret · 01-10-2019, 09:26

I just had to look up the "chicken" tiles, and I think I can see a sort of bird, but not 100% sure.... I am pretty sure my mum and dad had those tiles in blue, in the kitchen, and because some had an edge, the ones over the window were upside dpwn, which used to bug me, but I only noticed it by pattern, not the bird.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

makeitfit · 01-10-2019, 22:42

As an aged kitchen fitter this kind of tale pisses me off big time.
Wren are basically buying customers with their massive advertising budget and converse attitude to responsibility regarding installation.
I often hear clients say that , insert shed name here, are fitting it "free" or some such crap. I always charge a flat fee calculated on each unit fitted and all other services .
So clients dont like me when I suggest its going to cost 1500 quid to fit it , properly.
I'm sorry you've had a bum job. If you were closer I'd happily come and help sort the mess. If you want any tips, send me a pic and a question.
Good luck.

solarman216 · 01-10-2019, 23:27

With you there Pete, done my fair share of Kitchens, including commercials, some I go back to even now 20 years on and still good, personal recommendation is the best way although even that can fail, it is a poor world we live in today when everyone just wants to rip you off, including the powers that be, I despair, Rick

Lazy-Ferret · 01-10-2019, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by makeitfit

As an aged kitchen fitter this kind of tale pisses me off big time.
Wren are basically buying customers with their massive advertising budget and converse attitude to responsibility regarding installation.
I often hear clients say that , insert shed name here, are fitting it "free" or some such crap. I always charge a flat fee calculated on each unit fitted and all other services .
So clients dont like me when I suggest its going to cost 1500 quid to fit it , properly.
I'm sorry you've had a bum job. If you were closer I'd happily come and help sort the mess. If you want any tips, send me a pic and a question.
Good luck.

Cheers, to be honest, we thought that was the type of builder we had, we showed him the plans, told him all the potential issues, like the walls are not square etc, and were prepared to pay him on the time taken, so he was not even working to a budget.

I have been doing more work out there today, all the base units were fixed to the wall by just driving a screw straight in, no rawplugs. I put my hand in one cabinet, and caught my hand on the pointed end of a screw sticking out about 4mm, which had been put through from the cabinet next door.

The wall batten, that the end of the surface rests on, was also only fixed to the wall with 2 x 50mm screws, straight into the plaster. Fortunately for me, I noticed it was loose, and double-checked. I then went round and checked all the other ends, only to find similar problems. When I went to undo one screw, I thought it was stripped, but when I got it out, the screw had sheared off about 10mm in.

They are coming to fit the surface tomorrow, so I have spent all of today, up till just a few mins ago going round and checking every fitting, screw and level of the bases, so hopefully that will now be OK for tomorrow.

terranosaurusdoug · 02-10-2019, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy-Ferret

Cheers, to be honest, we thought that was the type of builder we had, we showed him the plans, told him all the potential issues, like the walls are not square etc, and were prepared to pay him on the time taken, so he was not even working to a budget.

I have been doing more work out there today, all the base units were fixed to the wall by just driving a screw straight in, no rawplugs. I put my hand in one cabinet, and caught my hand on the pointed end of a screw sticking out about 4mm, which had been put through from the cabinet next door.

The wall batten, that the end of the surface rests on, was also only fixed to the wall with 2 x 50mm screws, straight into the plaster. Fortunately for me, I noticed it was loose, and double-checked. I then went round and checked all the other ends, only to find similar problems. When I went to undo one screw, I thought it was stripped, but when I got it out, the screw had sheared off about 10mm in.

They are coming to fit the surface tomorrow, so I have spent all of today, up till just a few mins ago going round and checking every fitting, screw and level of the bases, so hopefully that will now be OK for tomorrow.

That is flippin appalling, I'm a tradesman and I would not sleep soundly knowing I had done a shot job, so I don't do shot job!

terranosaurusdoug · 02-10-2019, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jims-terrano

Oh no Clive, you’ve been stung by a real cowboy there. Assuming you’ve tackled him about it. Is there anybody you can contact like trading standards?

It’s terrible having to rely on other people to do what is supposed to be a professional job. We have been let down with inferior workmanship several times and until I regain fitness we will be stuck dependant on trades people. Had the dreaded double glazing sales people in over last few months, one local company the lady simply wrote a figure on a business card as a quote.

Happy days, we are all here to offer support Clive even if it is just to listen.

Plumbing and heating, bathrooms too mate, give me a shout, I am mkre than happy to help bud

especiallyif I get some more bacon and tea

macabethiel · 02-10-2019, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy-Ferret

I just had to look up the "chicken" tiles, and I think I can see a sort of bird, but not 100% sure.... I am pretty sure my mum and dad had those tiles in blue, in the kitchen, and because some had an edge, the ones over the window were upside dpwn, which used to bug me, but I only noticed it by pattern, not the bird.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

In the picture you can clearly see the Chick outline in the upper tile , the one below is upside down!

Chicken Tiles by Ted Bagshaw, on Flickr

panelbeater · 02-10-2019, 21:31

i put those chicken tiles in my bathroom back in 77,the one upside down is eating.
when i moved to where i am now in 90 the dredded chicken tile was floor to celing in a fair sized barthroom so just put a bigger tile on top with colour to match bath set,a big corner one.
i have taken out and fitted 3 kitchens in this house but it is dated now,but i put real solid wood doors on and took them to work and sprayed varnish on them in the spray booth.
i am at the age now and fitness where i cant do much so i say to my girls it aint broke so i ant chainging it.
i did have a downstaires toilet fitted in its own room,inside a bigger room, and it never got finished but is usable and chap that did it wont come back now as i wont class him as a builder to anyone.
i feel for you though as its gone tits up for you.
the saying is do it yourself and do it right if your able.

Lazy-Ferret · 02-10-2019, 23:15

Very true... To be honest, I think my joints would have suffered less if I had done it myself, as re-doing the work that was done badly has taken more work anyway. The main problem was, having never seen a kitchen fitted, I was at a loss of where to start, but with what I know now, I would be far more prepared to do it myself, "IF" we ever need too. It may take a bit longer than the professionals, but at least I would have done each bit properly, after all, just by having set the floor tiles level would have made fitting the base units much easier, and working up from there would have been easier too.

The good news is the quartz surfaces went in today, and all fitted perfectly, so my remedial work was all good. Tomorrow, once the surface is fully set, I can finish plumbing in the sink, and the "GasSafe" fitter over the road will connect the hob up, and we have a functional kitchen... Not finished, but functional, which will be the first time in 6 weeks... Only down side is no more excuses for getting a takeaway ordered in...

Just got to re-do the one side, where he installed the wall units so badly, make good the ceiling, wall, and cover some pipes. Then I can tile the wall, Suz can grout it, leaving me to do my favourite bit, and install all the LED lighting.

macabethiel · 03-10-2019, 00:10

This is a long shot but I believe there are screws that can be used by driving them straight into solid walls with no drilling,standard plastic or wooden plug required. Never used them wonder if that's what the builder used?

I have seen the used to attach galvanised corner beads prior to plastering of concrete pillars.

I would never use such a thing for a Kitchen Wall unit that would carry a fair weight on the wall pates with the risk of a force other than straight downward force.

https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-na...4?brand=dewalt

terranosaurusdoug · 03-10-2019, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by macabethiel

This is a long shot but I believe there are screws that can be used by driving them straight into solid walls with no drilling,standard plastic or wooden plug required. Never used them wonder if that's what the builder used?

I have seen the used to attach galvanised corner beads prior to plastering of concrete pillars.

I would never use such a thing for a Kitchen Wall unit that would carry a fair weight on the wall pates with the risk of a force other than straight downward force.

https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-na...4?brand=dewalt

I've never seen those, like you said I would not like to use them, just doesn't seem right!

elty001 · 03-10-2019, 05:54

I've used the m8 and m10 thunderbolts which are a bigger version of them with no problems.

01-10-2019, 00:38	#1
Lazy-Ferret Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sevenoaks, Kent Vehicle: Terrano 2.7TDi SE Touring Posts: 5,221	A rant We have lived in this house for 19 years, and when we moved in, the kitchen had been done a few years before, but was in lovely condition, and to our taste. Over the years, it's got old, coupled with a burst pipe, which got into the chipboard of the cabinets, and caused them to expand, so it was looking steadily more and more shabby. We had the odd door fall off, but I was able to repair it, and keep it looking respectable, but I was now repairing repairs. We decided the time had come for a new kitchen, and this may sound daft, but neither of us has ever bought a kitchen before, so it was a pretty daunting task trying to find out what we needed. After looking at loads of places, and getting various designs, we could only find "that will do" layouts, and nothing really felt like we wanted to part with the silly money involved, for what they were offering. Finally, we went to Wren, and for the first time, a company came up with a design that ticked all the boxes. Now, to do this, the old kitchen needed ripping out, and basically starting again from the ground up. Although Wren offer a fitting service, they do not offer new electrics, floor laying, new ceiling, and modified plumbing etc.. Also, we wanted to have a new heating system installed, which would be moved from the kitchen wall, into the old airing cupboard upstairs. So Suz went online, and using a local Farcebook group got a recommended builder, who said he could do all the work we needed. Well... I won't bore you with all the issues, just to sum up... The tiles on the floor are not level, some sticking up 5mm higher than the ones next to them. In several places the beige tile adhesive sticks up above the black grout, and in many places the grout has been missed completely. The electrical sockets are crooked, and also not in line with each other along the work top. Loads of issues with the waste plumbing, including mixing sizes, missing seals, and using glue and sealant to try and cover bodges. He put plaster board sheets up on the ceiling, but did not tape the joints, so they are already splitting, and he just spodged plaster over the screws, so there are lumps all over the ceiling. The base cabinets were placed very badly, when the guy came out to measure up for the surface, he pointed out that the cabinets were 40mm out of line with each other, and I spotted that one of the gaps for the tumble dryer was not actually wide enough. He painted the walls, which were still not re-plastered from where the old tiles were removed, and got paint all over the new units. The wall units are screwed to the wall, without using rawlplugs, and he has not used any packers, so they are twisted. Also many of the screws are sticking out, as they did not actually drive all the way into the wall. He has chipped all the cut edges of the panels, and even worse, installed the cut side down on the floor, so the bare edge will get wet every time we wash the floor, and don't even mention the pelmets, which are diabolical. Basically, the list just goes on and on. Needless to say, he won't be coming back, and I am now trying to sort out the issues, but the whole point of getting a builder in, was my joint pains make it very difficult to do a lot of the jobs. We have made a lot of progress, and even got Suz involved in doing the grouting, as that really does kill my wrists. The main problem we have now found is, while he rewired the kitchen, and fitted a new consumer unit, he lied, and is not actually certified, so has not informed the relevant people, and we do not have a certificate, should we sell the house in the future. I feel so let down, we used Suz's inheritance from her dad to buy the kitchen, and it's terrible. I did have a few concerns as he was working, but I did not want to interfere, as I assumed that he knew what he was doing, and just because it was not the way I would do it, does not necessarily mean it not another way of doing it, but I wish I had now.

01-10-2019, 03:17	#3
macabethiel Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Derby Vehicle: Freelander & Jeep GC 3.0 Posts: 4,416	KItchen Fitting - you are not alone ! I feel for you mate and know what you mean about finding someone competent in the first place. We went through some similar issues with our house. We moved into our present house in March 1984 - the kitchen like yours was pretty good at the time being one marketed at the local Hillards Supermarket where a promotion had taken place. The wall tiles were that design that had the hidden 'Chicken' in the pattern - white with green pattern. We had not seen the Chicken part until a friend pointed them out - we laughed about it. The next day I noticed that some of the 'Chickens' were upside down! lol It was dated by 1991 the white parts were yellow with handles falling off etc, it had some badly swollen chip board from various small water leaks over the years particularly the sink base unit. We decided to have a new Kitchen that we bought from an excellent firm in Burton on Trent - we could not afford new wall tiles so stuck with them. A builder that my wife met in the pub where she worked part time gave us a quote for building our double garage and for fitting the new kitchen. The Builder was on equal weekly stage payments - I made the mistake of not making the final payment larger. He walked off the job with the Garage roof needing ridge tiles fitting, a steel lintel that was not level etc. Only half the wall units had been fitted none level etc. He never came back as he was going personally bankrupt - we never made the last stage payment. We were lucky enough to get the Contractor that had built a new Office Block where the wife worked (they were doing the snagging list) to put a couple of blokes on the job to finish the Garage for cash in hand. I refitted all the wall cupboards myself. We had a new kitchen after the fire fitted by the Contractor as part of the insurance claim, although its only a fairly basic Howdens one it has been fitted very well in most areas but not perfect. This Kitchen will be our last one unless we live into our 90's lol

01-10-2019, 23:27	#6
solarman216 Off road maniac Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bexhill on Sea Vehicle: Y60 Patrol Me, 3 ltr Mrs Posts: 17,431	With you there Pete, done my fair share of Kitchens, including commercials, some I go back to even now 20 years on and still good, personal recommendation is the best way although even that can fail, it is a poor world we live in today when everyone just wants to rip you off, including the powers that be, I despair, Rick __________________ Ex banger racer now off road maniac Lokka on the front with manual hubs Diff lock on rear 3 inch SS straight through exhaust Manly winch bumper with 13000 lb winch 10 spike ground anchor, with multiple straps and blocks Super strong body cills capped with scaffold pole 20% stronger springs all round aggressive off road tyres on wheels so just swap. Aim to get stuck and be completely self sufficient in extraction, love getting muddy, 2ft deep is good but rare.

03-10-2019, 00:10	#13
macabethiel Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Derby Vehicle: Freelander & Jeep GC 3.0 Posts: 4,416	No Rawl Plugs or hole need be drilled first ?? This is a long shot but I believe there are screws that can be used by driving them straight into solid walls with no drilling,standard plastic or wooden plug required. Never used them wonder if that's what the builder used? I have seen the used to attach galvanised corner beads prior to plastering of concrete pillars. I would never use such a thing for a Kitchen Wall unit that would carry a fair weight on the wall pates with the risk of a force other than straight downward force. https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-na...4?brand=dewalt

01-10-2019, 00:51	#2
jims-terrano Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 12,965	Oh no Clive, you’ve been stung by a real cowboy there. Assuming you’ve tackled him about it. Is there anybody you can contact like trading standards? It’s terrible having to rely on other people to do what is supposed to be a professional job. We have been let down with inferior workmanship several times and until I regain fitness we will be stuck dependant on trades people. Had the dreaded double glazing sales people in over last few months, one local company the lady simply wrote a figure on a business card as a quote. Happy days, we are all here to offer support Clive even if it is just to listen.

01-10-2019, 09:26	#4
Lazy-Ferret Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sevenoaks, Kent Vehicle: Terrano 2.7TDi SE Touring Posts: 5,221	I just had to look up the "chicken" tiles, and I think I can see a sort of bird, but not 100% sure.... I am pretty sure my mum and dad had those tiles in blue, in the kitchen, and because some had an edge, the ones over the window were upside dpwn, which used to bug me, but I only noticed it by pattern, not the bird. Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

01-10-2019, 22:42	#5
makeitfit Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: on the beach WEST WALES Vehicle: Maverick TDi BLACK mmm Posts: 15,136	As an aged kitchen fitter this kind of tale pisses me off big time. Wren are basically buying customers with their massive advertising budget and converse attitude to responsibility regarding installation. I often hear clients say that , insert shed name here, are fitting it "free" or some such crap. I always charge a flat fee calculated on each unit fitted and all other services . So clients dont like me when I suggest its going to cost 1500 quid to fit it , properly. I'm sorry you've had a bum job. If you were closer I'd happily come and help sort the mess. If you want any tips, send me a pic and a question. Good luck.

02-10-2019, 21:31	#11
panelbeater Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: clacton on sea essex Vehicle: nissan terrano 2 2.7 tdi Posts: 1,638	i put those chicken tiles in my bathroom back in 77,the one upside down is eating. when i moved to where i am now in 90 the dredded chicken tile was floor to celing in a fair sized barthroom so just put a bigger tile on top with colour to match bath set,a big corner one. i have taken out and fitted 3 kitchens in this house but it is dated now,but i put real solid wood doors on and took them to work and sprayed varnish on them in the spray booth. i am at the age now and fitness where i cant do much so i say to my girls it aint broke so i ant chainging it. i did have a downstaires toilet fitted in its own room,inside a bigger room, and it never got finished but is usable and chap that did it wont come back now as i wont class him as a builder to anyone. i feel for you though as its gone tits up for you. the saying is do it yourself and do it right if your able.

02-10-2019, 23:15	#12
Lazy-Ferret Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sevenoaks, Kent Vehicle: Terrano 2.7TDi SE Touring Posts: 5,221	Very true... To be honest, I think my joints would have suffered less if I had done it myself, as re-doing the work that was done badly has taken more work anyway. The main problem was, having never seen a kitchen fitted, I was at a loss of where to start, but with what I know now, I would be far more prepared to do it myself, "IF" we ever need too. It may take a bit longer than the professionals, but at least I would have done each bit properly, after all, just by having set the floor tiles level would have made fitting the base units much easier, and working up from there would have been easier too. The good news is the quartz surfaces went in today, and all fitted perfectly, so my remedial work was all good. Tomorrow, once the surface is fully set, I can finish plumbing in the sink, and the "GasSafe" fitter over the road will connect the hob up, and we have a functional kitchen... Not finished, but functional, which will be the first time in 6 weeks... Only down side is no more excuses for getting a takeaway ordered in... Just got to re-do the one side, where he installed the wall units so badly, make good the ceiling, wall, and cover some pipes. Then I can tile the wall, Suz can grout it, leaving me to do my favourite bit, and install all the LED lighting.

03-10-2019, 05:54	#15
elty001 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Aflreton,Derbyshire. Vehicle: 2000se+ 2.7tdi terrano II Posts: 6,832	I've used the m8 and m10 thunderbolts which are a bigger version of them with no problems.