Israel and Gaza

[macabethiel]

When I was 14 years of age way back in 1961 I did a an evening paper round in the suberbs of Derby and used to deliver about 72 copies of the Derby Evening Telegraph.

At around this time the Adolf Eichmann Trial was being reported with vivid accounts from concentration camp survivors about the horrors of the Holocoust. Details were reported in the local paper and it was heart wrenching reading.
I was horrified by the accounts and went on to see documentaries about the camps and read a number of books not just about the Holocoust but also about the Pogroms in Russia.

In the early nineties my wife and I visited Israel and went to Jerusalem and Bethlehem. We went not only to the various Stations of Christ as they were called by our tour guide but also visited the Golden Mosque in Jerusalem. I am not relgious but I was very moved by the visit to the birthplace of Christ and I was very impressed with the Israeli Citizens I met.

I have always supported Israel throughout its 7 day war as its neighbours tried to eradicate the state. I was no fan of Yasser Arafat and even less so the likes of Hizbolla.

That said am I alone in thinking that the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the continued defiance of UN security Council rulings with its settlements on the West Bank and now the deaths of civilians in Gaza is an atrocity too far.

I am not anti-semetic but can the Americans and the West continue to support Israel as it treats Palestinians Civilians as collaterol damage?
They are just creating another generation of Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will bite back in the future. Its time Israel took a look at itself and had a more moderate stance toward Gaza.

[jims-terrano]

Wise words there macbeth, this is a very sad situation for all sides and as per usual it's the innocent civilians that suffer in the main. The whole middle east is a powder keg waiting to blow. There is a lot of history and it would seem that nobody has learnt from it. Seems to me that religion and the way people interpret religion and its writings that would seem to be the biggest problem not just there but across the whole world. If religion teaches peace and tolerance then why is this happening? Personally neither side is innocent and both have their faults. However it must be time for supporting governments to reign in Israel as you say.

The sad truth is that no supporting government will reign in Israel and conflicts like this will continue breeding discontent and contempt with the innocent population of the area and indeed the world.

[kitchenman]

If the citizens of Gaza stopped sending rockets into Israel perhaps the Israelies would stop bombing Gaza
If there was a god worth praying to why does it allow these deaths?

[solarman216]

I am far from discussing politics on here, but my wife and I visited Jerusalem a few years ago, no tour guide just us and 3 days wandering about, I would never go back, they are sick, untrue and vile, during the day tourists, most helpful if a little held back, but go out at night, after 11pm whole different ball game, these guys with there beards and caps are seen posting malicious shit on anything that stands still long enough and on our return trip to the airport in a communal taxi had several of these guys join us, you could have cut the atmosphere with a knife, Rick

[Lazy-Ferret]

Macabethiel, it's like you have taken the words out of both me and my wife's mouths...

I too have done Jerusalem, and Bethlehem, and always wondered why a place with such significant religious value to so many religions was taken and given to a group of people who basically do not believe in the significance of most of it's history. We had a guide, and while I am not a particularly religious person anyway, I was still amazed at the flippant way he just pointed to a bit in a church and said, "Oh yes, and that is supposed to be the place Jesus was crucified.. Over here are where the 2 thieves were also crucified", and then turned to leave...

I really hope this government of ours see sense, and imposes some form of sanctions on them. After all, they are now well outside ethical reprisals, after the "Boat Piracy" issue a year or so ago, which was soon quietened down, and now all this.

Lets hope some steps in and sorts this out.. maybe the Russians???

[Fez_uk]

Religion, Ripe with sh!te

[AlexD333]

Originally Posted by Fez_uk

Religion, Ripe with sh!te

Amen to that!

[clivvy]

I agree, though the history of this whole debacle is both long and complex. Israel is a very rich and powerful country, with strong ties to the U.S. especially with regards weapons and money. Lets be fair, Israel have oppressed Palestine for a long, long time which goes some way to explain the on going wars between these two countries, and Gaza is slap bang in the middle of it, essentially its a concentration camp. I look at it this way - Israel is the Goliath, Gaza is the David so if Israel doesn't stop what it is doing, Gaza /Palestine or whoever are going to bite back very hard.

I feel that Israel have gone too far, they have far superior defences and far superior weaponry - it isn't a fair fight and never has been. I don't agree with Hezbollah either, though I understand their position - they weren't always labelled terrorists, they began as freedom fighters and its here that the history gets complex.

I haven't taken sides, but I think Israel needs to back down. The problem is, Israel WONT back down. Every Israeli I have spoken to have all said the same thing - "they started it". You here it on the news too through translations. Its almost childish, the way they are behaving, except they aren't spitting dummies they are spitting very advanced precision rockets.

I feel for the Israelis though, because sooner or later, some of their neighbours are going to step in, and it wont be Palestine or Gaza at the receiving end, it will be Israel.

[johnb5177]

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-...n-state-israel

Reading the above piece, it seems that this situation has been very long in the making.
The real problem lies in the simple fact that as human beings.......we make war......we are really good at it, with practice at any given opportunity, and we as a species, never seem to learn any lessons of moderation.......just how to make better weapons......
Religion does somehow seem to be at the root of most wars, but I often wonder if that is not just a convenient excuse for doing what is inevitably going to happen anyway.
Wars seem to be perhaps nature's way of balancing populations, along with starvation, drought, disease etc.....thinking about a planet as a unique self balancing system.......which we as a species continue to screw up.
All I know is that civilian populations are always at risk of `collateral damage` in these sort of regionalism conflicts. The sight of so many small children killed and injured or so severely traumatised in these conflicts is heart rending, and only serves to perpetuate the conflict into future generations.
Would that someone with much more sense and perhaps power (America, Russia, Uk?) Would intervene now to halt effectively an escalating situation, where I frankly see the end game involving a small mushroom cloud somewhere......

[solarman216]

I think this thread should be closed, politics and war I do not think are on our agenda, and can lead to guys and girls that would otherwise be good mates, falling out, I rest my case, Rick

[AlexD333]

Originally Posted by solarman216

I think this thread should be closed, politics and war I do not think are on our agenda, and can lead to guys and girls that would otherwise be good mates, falling out, I rest my case, Rick

It's a touchy one, i personally think war and religion do start long and complicated arguments, and yes this forum is incredibly friendly, I'd hate to see it get negative like so many of the others out there.

[briggie]

Originally Posted by solarman216

I think this thread should be closed, politics and war I do not think are on our agenda, and can lead to guys and girls that would otherwise be good mates, falling out, I rest my case, Rick

totally agree mate

[firebobby]

I also agree with the above

[macabethiel]

I am surprised to read talk of closing the thread as this is just debating something in the news at the present time as we do at my local pub and in my workplace. For those not interested then go to another thread.

Those with a view as some have expressed articulately then chip in. It would have been interesting to read a post from a peron of Jewish extract or indeed an Arab viewpoint.

Okay in my local pub after a few pints the chatter moves from serious stuff and it usually denegrates into talking the usual male crap but at least in The UK we have that freedom.

We are happy to chat about the Firemans strike but we want to put the shutters down if its about Genocide?

Mmmmmmmmmmmm

[AlexD333]

Originally Posted by macabethiel

I am surprised to read talk of closing the thread as this is just debating something in the news at the present time as we do at my local pub and in my workplace. For those not interested then go to another thread.

Those with a view as some have expressed articulately then chip in. It would have been interesting to read a post from a peron of Jewish extract or indeed an Arab viewpoint.

Okay in my local pub after a few pints the chatter moves from serious stuff and it usually denegrates into talking the usual male crap but at least in The UK we have that freedom.

We are happy to chat about the Firemans strike but we want to put the shutters down if its about Genocide?

Mmmmmmmmmmmm

Fair point, I think a few just didn't wanna see the usual heated debates involved with this type of politics ect. But yes everyone has the right to chat about what they want. Perhaps those not interested (myself included) should butt out