Dale Farm... - Page 2

Liam · 27-09-2011, 20:00

Dave, illegal building and retrospective planning applications was practiced by building professionals long before these groups were using it as a tactic. They had good teachers in the building game and learned fast. It's the governments and councils that are slow to learn. If the UK is anything like Ireland, I'm sure quite a number of house extensions and loft or barn conversions have been built and then had a retrospective planning application put in. The question that comes to mind is why is there retrospective planning in the first place? Surely if a builder is going to build something he knows what he is building before he starts? My understanding is that it is a mechanism to allow planning to be obtained for one type of building and when the builder "accidently" builds it too big or too high, he can apply after it is built and with a damn good chance of retaining it in it's new size/shape. And of course, once one guy gets away with it, others jump on the bandwagon and all because there has been previous approval to another builder by the same council. Hard to say no to Peter when you have already said yes to Paul for a similar issue. So it seems it is really a flaw in the planning process, which a section of the community seem willing to exploit and the government and councils are unwilling to change it because they get a lot of support from the building industry. I think the bottom line on this, as always, is money. Follow the money trail to see where it leads and you will find the reason why it has dragged on so long. Have you had them move on to privately scenic areas and look for money to move off them, before the lengthy court process is begun? It worked here for a while and some of them made a few quid, don't hear much about it now, though.

Bee Elzebub · 27-09-2011, 20:28

Liam, it isn't about some of them being Irish - we all know a few really nice Irish folks where we all live; we work with them, sometimes drink with them - we all know that the vast majority of ordinary Irish folks are hard-working, decent folks (like the majority of us cosmopolitanly-blooded "English" folks, in fact) - so, racist? Definitely not!

The bulk of the wives & kids of the "settled travellers" on Dale Farm are allegedly of Irish origin (although purportedly ok) and most are trying to 'integrate' locally (I heard that they have over 100 kids at the nearest infant/juniors school [leaving less than a dozen local kids who live in nearby houses]...), and are registered for various facilities (like Surgeries, etc), so they obviously prefer to stay...but although the Council offered many of them housing to get them off the 'camp', many refused, because unfortunately, a big chunk of their menfolk ARE villainous types who are involved in all sorts of regional wrangling, etc, and don't want to be held-down by law & order...

Whatever the outcome, there's good & bad on both sides of the law in this particular case (not helped at all by the influx of professional scroungers/freeloaders/"protestors" - all of whom would have been kicked into touch by any TRUE self-respecting Romany); the whole issue's a mess - I wouldn't want to be living anywhere near that region once the bulldozers finally go in; the "travellers" will probably invade anything nearby that isn't solidly-barricaded...

I really feel sympathy for REAL travellers - the get lumped with a lot of crap that isn't their own doing, but seldom get the chance to voice their feelings. I almost wish I had the true freedom to live a wanderers' lifestyle, but there's just too much prejudice & animosity against the foot-loose, these days...

Deleted account DD · 27-09-2011, 20:57

Liam,my understanding is that the intention of retrospective planning permission was to allow lee way for genuine cock ups, misunderstandings and allow a time scale for interpretation of new legislation, ie they couldnt really suss it until it was built.

Yes no doubt its been widely abused but it has also been widely dealt with and quite a lot of demolition companies have made a good living on contract

However there's certain people who make a lifestyle, by choice, on the retro permission game and they shouldn't whinge when they lose just as these non travelling travellers have

Tear the place down.

Adz · 27-09-2011, 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

Problem with Dale Farm is that its there. Full stop.

Unlawful development with retrospective planning application is no way to go.

Unfortunately the law seems to help the guilty on this one and restrict the enforcers. Really winds me up seeing the residents now assisted by professional protesters gobbing off.

I feel sorry for people like yourself who more than likely feel the same but can't do anything

Once the uniform goes on your in the firing line straight away as was I when I did door work...

But we both know where this could take the thread

Adz · 27-09-2011, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam

Is this a sort of racist thread? Thought they were banned on here but maybe it only applies to "local" racism and as these are allegedly Irish maybe that's ok. My thoughts are if "An Englishman's home is his castle" it should perhaps be changed to "An Englishman's country is his castle", then maybe people in the UK would stick together and these situations wouldn't ever arise. Somebody sold them this land, and probably an Englishman who maybe wasn't too concerned about his neighbours opinion. I'm sure he is on his neighbours Christmas card list. We have this trouble here too, councils will put them anywhere the locals don't have a lot of money or influence, in a few places where the councils tried to locate them, the wealthy neighbours went to the courts and got it stopped. Interesting to note that it wasn't because the councils were trying to build halting sites for them, but because the council were not providing the proper amenities for the travellers. Nice spin, the rich and powerful insisted they had no problem with having the halting site in their area but were opposing the council's failure to provide the correct infrastructure. Naturallly, the council didn't want to spend a pile of money bringing the site up to the required standard, so they went ahead and built one where the locals probably had less money than the travellers.

NOPE

For a start it's all over tv

& the only reason I posted it was because
1. It's stolen public rights of way
&
2. The security tit peed me off

Without getting this into a racist thread WHICH IT ISNT I don't care who live's in what ever country or what colour there skin is as long as they live lawfully & PIKYS DON'T.!

clivvy · 27-09-2011, 21:28

not far from me, a guy built a mansion without planning permission, needless to say, nobody lives at that address now....and let me tell you, its not a small house.

the law is fairly clear here, they shouldnt be there despite how long it has taken the council to "react". times run out, and they dont like it. tits.

Adz · 27-09-2011, 21:33

But the point is there still there & locals no there not going unless they use force which they have said they wont . . .

& its cost shed loads to achieve nothing. . .

Liam · 27-09-2011, 21:47

Knocking it won't end it, they still own the site and it is a pretty safe bet they won't be planting flowers on it. They have already won and I suppose this is what really galls people, the people in power have had centuries to legislate to prevent this and have failed, not just in the UK, but all over. Dave knows that laws only work for the law abiding, criminals don't give a damn about laws because they choose to live outside them anyway. Anyway, I hope all those affected by this and who are law abiding realise they need to be as persistent as the travellers in pursuing their own councils and MPs to close the loopholes in planning and be proactive in the future, not reactive.

TONUP · 27-09-2011, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

That comment alone suggests to me you lost a grip on the real world

Unfortunately I think you might be right, and it may have happened some time ago

Alan

Thomas-the-Terrano2 · 27-09-2011, 22:13

I dont believe this is a racist thread,

though I know that the use of the p
word is racist and as we've been there
so many times before I don't wish to
see incitement to racial hatred in this
forum.

I modified the first two posts and I don't
wish to see it again.

as before there was a warning, and then
there was deletion of comments.

Lets ease of on the stereo typing too please
theres plenty of criminals living in houses
and from all backgrounds.

solarman216 · 27-09-2011, 23:18

My thoughts are that this club is not the place for this sort of stuff, can we not stick to 4 x 4 related issues, I know that it has links in that a green lane has been affected but that is where it should stop is my opinion, Rick

Liam · 28-09-2011, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas-the-Terrano2

I dont believe this is a racist thread,

though I know that the use of the p
word is racist and as we've been there
so many times before I don't wish to
see incitement to racial hatred in this
forum.

I modified the first two posts and I don't
wish to see it again.

as before there was a warning, and then
there was deletion of comments.

Lets ease of on the stereo typing too please
theres plenty of criminals living in houses
and from all backgrounds.

Well I've said what I wanted. Sincerely hope it gets sorted ok for ALL concerned. To be honest, if people have strong feelings on something, it is going to get aired somewhere.

Adz · 28-09-2011, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarman216

My thoughts are that this club is not the place for this sort of stuff, can we not stick to 4 x 4 related issues

Pointless statement I'm affraid as people took the P when I said there was no real 4x4 talk on here hence me going over to the 4WD Club.
What song moves you has sweet FA to do with 4x4's.....................

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam

Well I've said what I wanted. Sincerely hope it gets sorted ok for ALL concerned. To be honest, if people have strong feelings on something, it is going to get aired somewhere.

Thank-you

Deleted account DD · 28-09-2011, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarman216

My thoughts are that this club is not the place for this sort of stuff, can we not stick to 4 x 4 related issues, I know that it has links in that a green lane has been affected but that is where it should stop is my opinion, Rick

The forum reflects life based around a common interest of 4x4s.

Wouldnt life be boring if we all went to the pub and only drank beer instead of talking about sex, politics and the world in general.

The simple answer is again, if youre not interested in a thread dont read it.

I do actually remember a certain thread on here talking about celebrating beating the planning system unconnected with 4x4s

Pot , Kettle, Black perhaps ?

solarman216 · 28-09-2011, 21:05

OK point taken, Rick

27-09-2011, 22:13	#25
Thomas-the-Terrano2 Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hackenthorpe Sheffield Vehicle: Terrano2 R20 lwb 2.7TDi Posts: 5,234	I dont believe this is a racist thread, though I know that the use of the p word is racist and as we've been there so many times before I don't wish to see incitement to racial hatred in this forum. I modified the first two posts and I don't wish to see it again. as before there was a warning, and then there was deletion of comments. Lets ease of on the stereo typing too please theres plenty of criminals living in houses and from all backgrounds. __________________ M6YTB / 20YTB '60' 2010 Ford C Max Zetec 1.6i, black '56' 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0TD, silver 2021 Bailey Pegasus Grade SE Turin caravan Smile, its more likely to confuse. One Life, Don't Just Live It, Drive a Nissan, or ...... a Jeep. Owner of Nissan 4x4s 2005 to 2019, and maybe in the future too!

27-09-2011, 20:00	#16
Liam Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Laois,Ireland Posts: 923	Dave, illegal building and retrospective planning applications was practiced by building professionals long before these groups were using it as a tactic. They had good teachers in the building game and learned fast. It's the governments and councils that are slow to learn. If the UK is anything like Ireland, I'm sure quite a number of house extensions and loft or barn conversions have been built and then had a retrospective planning application put in. The question that comes to mind is why is there retrospective planning in the first place? Surely if a builder is going to build something he knows what he is building before he starts? My understanding is that it is a mechanism to allow planning to be obtained for one type of building and when the builder "accidently" builds it too big or too high, he can apply after it is built and with a damn good chance of retaining it in it's new size/shape. And of course, once one guy gets away with it, others jump on the bandwagon and all because there has been previous approval to another builder by the same council. Hard to say no to Peter when you have already said yes to Paul for a similar issue. So it seems it is really a flaw in the planning process, which a section of the community seem willing to exploit and the government and councils are unwilling to change it because they get a lot of support from the building industry. I think the bottom line on this, as always, is money. Follow the money trail to see where it leads and you will find the reason why it has dragged on so long. Have you had them move on to privately scenic areas and look for money to move off them, before the lengthy court process is begun? It worked here for a while and some of them made a few quid, don't hear much about it now, though.

27-09-2011, 20:28	#17
Bee Elzebub Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Suffolk Vehicle: ...Has Gone! 0..0 Posts: 91	Liam, it isn't about some of them being Irish - we all know a few really nice Irish folks where we all live; we work with them, sometimes drink with them - we all know that the vast majority of ordinary Irish folks are hard-working, decent folks (like the majority of us cosmopolitanly-blooded "English" folks, in fact) - so, racist? Definitely not! The bulk of the wives & kids of the "settled travellers" on Dale Farm are allegedly of Irish origin (although purportedly ok) and most are trying to 'integrate' locally (I heard that they have over 100 kids at the nearest infant/juniors school [leaving less than a dozen local kids who live in nearby houses]...), and are registered for various facilities (like Surgeries, etc), so they obviously prefer to stay...but although the Council offered many of them housing to get them off the 'camp', many refused, because unfortunately, a big chunk of their menfolk ARE villainous types who are involved in all sorts of regional wrangling, etc, and don't want to be held-down by law & order... Whatever the outcome, there's good & bad on both sides of the law in this particular case (not helped at all by the influx of professional scroungers/freeloaders/"protestors" - all of whom would have been kicked into touch by any TRUE self-respecting Romany); the whole issue's a mess - I wouldn't want to be living anywhere near that region once the bulldozers finally go in; the "travellers" will probably invade anything nearby that isn't solidly-barricaded... I really feel sympathy for REAL travellers - the get lumped with a lot of crap that isn't their own doing, but seldom get the chance to voice their feelings. I almost wish I had the true freedom to live a wanderers' lifestyle, but there's just too much prejudice & animosity against the foot-loose, these days...

27-09-2011, 20:57	#18
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	Liam,my understanding is that the intention of retrospective planning permission was to allow lee way for genuine cock ups, misunderstandings and allow a time scale for interpretation of new legislation, ie they couldnt really suss it until it was built. Yes no doubt its been widely abused but it has also been widely dealt with and quite a lot of demolition companies have made a good living on contract However there's certain people who make a lifestyle, by choice, on the retro permission game and they shouldn't whinge when they lose just as these non travelling travellers have Tear the place down.

27-09-2011, 21:28	#21
clivvy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Huddersfield Vehicle: Terrano 03 LWB Posts: 6,947	not far from me, a guy built a mansion without planning permission, needless to say, nobody lives at that address now....and let me tell you, its not a small house. the law is fairly clear here, they shouldnt be there despite how long it has taken the council to "react". times run out, and they dont like it. tits.

27-09-2011, 21:33	#22
Adz Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Roaming Nomad Vehicle: 1995 SWB Terrano Posts: 5,370	But the point is there still there & locals no there not going unless they use force which they have said they wont . . . & its cost shed loads to achieve nothing. . .

27-09-2011, 21:47	#23
Liam Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Laois,Ireland Posts: 923	Knocking it won't end it, they still own the site and it is a pretty safe bet they won't be planting flowers on it. They have already won and I suppose this is what really galls people, the people in power have had centuries to legislate to prevent this and have failed, not just in the UK, but all over. Dave knows that laws only work for the law abiding, criminals don't give a damn about laws because they choose to live outside them anyway. Anyway, I hope all those affected by this and who are law abiding realise they need to be as persistent as the travellers in pursuing their own councils and MPs to close the loopholes in planning and be proactive in the future, not reactive.

27-09-2011, 23:18	#26
solarman216 Off road maniac Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bexhill on Sea Vehicle: Y60 Patrol Me, 3 ltr Mrs Posts: 17,430	My thoughts are that this club is not the place for this sort of stuff, can we not stick to 4 x 4 related issues, I know that it has links in that a green lane has been affected but that is where it should stop is my opinion, Rick

28-09-2011, 21:05	#30
solarman216 Off road maniac Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bexhill on Sea Vehicle: Y60 Patrol Me, 3 ltr Mrs Posts: 17,430	OK point taken, Rick