SVO - Page 2

15-04-2009, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it

)

hmmmm its £2 for 2 now , I either read it wrong or they corrected the mistake

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 20:06

Darwin, i'll have that gadget as PM'd....the one i looked at was more expensive but had a dual circuit, one for the fuel and another for coolant circulation so that once the engine was warmed up, the coolant would warm the device (and fuel) and you could turn the heater element off...i'll see how this goes before investing in the big boy!

Toolbox · 15-04-2009, 22:14

Some intresting reading,

RING-GUMMING.........

When exposed to heat and oxygen Veggy-Oil will start to break down. It starts to thicken and polymerise and as time goes on, it turns from a sticky brown 'goo' into a hard black Coke/Carbon material. Just take a look at the frying-pan in your favorite Greasy-Spoon!

Any unburned veggy or partially burned veggy hitting the cylinder-walls will find its way to the Piston-Ring grooves on the next upward stroke of the piston. This veggy will collect in the gap behind the rings and the small clearances either side of the ring and piston. As time heat and plenty of oxygen are available, it breaks down and sets solid, sticking the ring in its groove, so it can no longer follow the irregularities of the cylinder-wall and seal the piston, as it was intended.

This ring gumming is slow and progressive, The speed at which it happens is dependent on Many factors The main ones being the temperature of the combustion-chamber and the condition of the injector atomisation, but as it progresses, gets faster and faster, at a weirdly logarithmic rate...

This causes loss of compression pressure gradually over weeks/months of use. which contributes to the secondary effect....Often the slow and progressive slight power loss may not even be noticed, or blamed on other issues, such as blocking filters or the choice of veggy oil or even the weather (No one wants to admit even to themselves there's something nasty growing in the Crank-Case!)....

(A Diesel Engine relies on the fact that when air is compressed, it gets hot, just like the effect noticed when pumping up a bicycle tyre. It depends on this heat for the ignition of the fuel. If for some reason there is a loss of air, say, from leaky rings, the peak temperature attained by the air at the point where the piston is at Top Dead-Centre, A.K.A. Top of the cylinder, the point of maximum compression pressure, the air will be cooler than intended, thus there is a very real danger of incomplete combustion, or even a complete Misfire, where the veggy wont burn at all, Pale bluish or White-Smoke in exhaust and maybe an unsteady engine when idling)

Not all the veggy is burned Particularly when cold, so this just adds to the supply of 'Ring-Glue'

As it progresses, the amounts of unburned veggy in the combustion chamber/cylinder, increase where it will pass to the lubrication oil by the operation of the oil control rings scraping it off the bores. The Oil Scraper/Control rings, being the lowest on the piston are last to be affected, The Top ring, which is the main sealing ring and subject to the full force of combustion pressure is first to go...

(Just as well the Oil-Control ring is last to go, or the engine could have otherwise end up in a runaway condition where it burns all its lube-oil in a minute or two and hits revs the makers would never have dreamed possible...The danger to life when driving a vehicle when this happens is better not even imagined, You CANT SHUT IT DOWN!....although I dont need to imagine it...Its happened many years ago to me....)

This ring gumming is Progressive and Accelerating Process, Thats why its so Insidious!

The Veggy builds up in the engine lube-oil....

There comes a 'Critical Mass' point, (although before this, it can thicken to some extent but without careful testing the amount of contamination cannot really be assessed),- where the Mineral Lube-oil and the Veggy oil are in the right proportions with the normal engine heat and other forces to react to form a polymer, and on that fateful day the engine cools after the 'Critical-Mass' has been reached where the lube-oil will set solid, just like jelly!

-Seen it happen, Very strange stuff is evolved...Same consistancy as Dessert Jelly, with the wobble and shake to boot, but greenish black opaque and covered in a clear yellow thin oily fluid. It has a slight but weird almost linseed/white spirit type smell too....

Next engine start, youll not have any oil pressure, and if not noticed, engine destruction will occur within minutes.....

IF the Lube-Oil is changed, then the risk of Polymerisation is removed....For Now...
The Ring-Gumming continues its destructive course, untill the point that there is insufficient compression to attain combustion at all. The outcome is the engine just will not start, Maybe a tow-start will get it going but it will soon die perminently!

OK, So you keep an eye on the Lube-Oil level....Great, Spiffin, Marvelous!

This will only tell you that incomplete combustion and ring problems have already started, if you see an increase in level....
You could have an engine, maybe not in its first flush of youth or just because of its design, that normally uses a small amount of Lube-Oil anyway, so the slow dilution with veggy will keep pace with its normal oil use....The lube dilution will then not be noticed, or maybe mistaken that the engine is no longer using up its lube-oil....The outcome is inevitable....

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 22:31

As you say Jeremy, interesting, and in some engines probably true because of the way their fuel pumps, injection systems or combustion work, but from the wide range of stuff I've read there are engine and fuel pump types that are not recommended and types that are...bottom of the list is the Lucas rotary type pump and any common-rail or direct injection diesel.

But the T2 of course has very old-fashioned diesel technology and the top-of-the-list Bosch fuel pump.

My neighbour (the retired industrial chemist) has used vegoil for years - his current Pug estate has done 90k-odd miles on a mix varying from 30-75% vegoil and no problems ever - and he is adamant that provided you maintain viscosity either by mixing or preheating (and he only does the former), there won't be any.

Its like my acetone thing...you'll find plenty of 'experts' out there willing to tell you it will bugger your fuel system and rot all your pipework and seals....well it hasn't done a thing to my older T2 in seven years and 120k miles....so i think i'll proceed with caution but optimism!

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 22:38

and heres the result of the initial experiment!

Visited Sainsbury first to relieve them of their last two bottles of vegoil (two at £3.06 for three litres)...then on to tescos for another 3 x 3 litre bottles at only £2.93 each. Tank was just under quarter full, so around 18-20 litres..plus 15 litres of vegoil. so roughly 60-40 diesel-vegoil, oh and a splosh of acetone.

went for a spin.

after a few miles, surprised to report:

1. Pulls away a tad more smoothly in lower gears
2. A bit quieter all round.
3. Definitely pulls a bit better in mid-range.

Could all be perception but I honestly don't think so - I used regular roads that I know the trucks performance on.

But heres the rub...if I went to 50-50 ratio in summer at the prices I can bulk buy at, then thats like getting 37.5 mpg on regular price fuel.

so am i prepared to risk it? You bet.

Toolbox · 15-04-2009, 22:42

I think your right about direct injection suffering more from the above and cold running on anything over perhaps 50%, I think if the oil is available at the right price then a 2 tank system with heater would be the way forward and worth doing if you want to go down the 100% svo route, being able to start on derv and warm engine up and then stop on derv.
Your correct about the Bosch pumps being ok, but the VP44 that I think is in the 3ltr T2 isn’t good on it as far as I understand.

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 22:47

Yes i think i'll limit it to 50/50...I'll give that 'permanently on' pump I've just bought off darwin a go for a while, and if this works OK I'll invest in the more expensive German version (£100-odd) that has a 340-watt pre-heater AND coolant connections so that you can switch the former off when the engine is hot and allow the cooling circuit to do the preheating...37mpg will be quite adequate for me thanks!

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 22:56

http://www.elsbett.com/gb/about-us/introduction.html

these are the makers of the preheater I mentioned above....

extreme-4x4 · 15-04-2009, 23:04

i was thinking of this....

but can i just do a 50 50 mix throughout the summer for now
without the preheat stuff... just shove it in if you like

what is svo
standard veg oil ???

like crisp n dry ? obviously a cheaper version or pointless i recon

15-04-2009, 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by extreme-4x4

i was thinking of this....

but can i just do a 50 50 mix throughout the summer for now
without the preheat stuff... just shove it in if you like

what is svo
standard veg oil ???

like crisp n dry ? obviously a cheaper version or pointless i recon

SVO = straight vegetable oil

eg unblended and without additives

ps during the summer you should be able to go 90% svo 10% derv

winter 50/50

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 23:14

Colin I swear you should notice a bit of improvement....we'll nip to Tesco saturday...their cheapest straight vegetable oil...£2.93 for a three-litre bottle, so already cheaper than diesel!

I think the cheapest (and apparently the best) as above contains rape seed oil...

extreme-4x4 · 15-04-2009, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacroupade

Colin I swear you should notice a bit of improvement....we'll nip to Tesco saturday...their cheapest straight vegetable oil...£2.93 for a three-litre bottle, so already cheaper than diesel!

ill be in macro tomorrow. lol

lacroupade · 15-04-2009, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by extreme-4x4

ill be in macro tomorrow. lol

i'll give you some acetone saturday unless you see pete in the meantime....about 120ml in a full tank, will help combustion...

lacroupade · 16-04-2009, 00:01

QUESTION - as I'm in bed and not under the truck, does anyone know (i) if there is any flexible fuel pipe between the filter and the pump, and (ii) what size pipe it is..6/8/10mm??

Deleted account DD · 16-04-2009, 07:40

Darwin what power is the heater? I read an article a while back that was discussing electrical v's water heated svo warmers.

Both had their merits but the conclusion was a combined one was best.

Water heated ones are slower to warm the oil so that doesnt help at start up whereas an electrical one that warms the oil sufficiently at start up frazzles it later.

I dont know one way or the other having not used one , I'd be interested in your conclusions before you bought

(just noticed lacroupes earlier post )

15-04-2009, 20:06	#17
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	Darwin, i'll have that gadget as PM'd....the one i looked at was more expensive but had a dual circuit, one for the fuel and another for coolant circulation so that once the engine was warmed up, the coolant would warm the device (and fuel) and you could turn the heater element off...i'll see how this goes before investing in the big boy!

15-04-2009, 22:14	#18
Toolbox Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cornwall Vehicle: Oh yes Posts: 1,968	Some intresting reading, RING-GUMMING......... When exposed to heat and oxygen Veggy-Oil will start to break down. It starts to thicken and polymerise and as time goes on, it turns from a sticky brown 'goo' into a hard black Coke/Carbon material. Just take a look at the frying-pan in your favorite Greasy-Spoon! Any unburned veggy or partially burned veggy hitting the cylinder-walls will find its way to the Piston-Ring grooves on the next upward stroke of the piston. This veggy will collect in the gap behind the rings and the small clearances either side of the ring and piston. As time heat and plenty of oxygen are available, it breaks down and sets solid, sticking the ring in its groove, so it can no longer follow the irregularities of the cylinder-wall and seal the piston, as it was intended. This ring gumming is slow and progressive, The speed at which it happens is dependent on Many factors The main ones being the temperature of the combustion-chamber and the condition of the injector atomisation, but as it progresses, gets faster and faster, at a weirdly logarithmic rate... This causes loss of compression pressure gradually over weeks/months of use. which contributes to the secondary effect....Often the slow and progressive slight power loss may not even be noticed, or blamed on other issues, such as blocking filters or the choice of veggy oil or even the weather (No one wants to admit even to themselves there's something nasty growing in the Crank-Case!).... (A Diesel Engine relies on the fact that when air is compressed, it gets hot, just like the effect noticed when pumping up a bicycle tyre. It depends on this heat for the ignition of the fuel. If for some reason there is a loss of air, say, from leaky rings, the peak temperature attained by the air at the point where the piston is at Top Dead-Centre, A.K.A. Top of the cylinder, the point of maximum compression pressure, the air will be cooler than intended, thus there is a very real danger of incomplete combustion, or even a complete Misfire, where the veggy wont burn at all, Pale bluish or White-Smoke in exhaust and maybe an unsteady engine when idling) Not all the veggy is burned Particularly when cold, so this just adds to the supply of 'Ring-Glue' As it progresses, the amounts of unburned veggy in the combustion chamber/cylinder, increase where it will pass to the lubrication oil by the operation of the oil control rings scraping it off the bores. The Oil Scraper/Control rings, being the lowest on the piston are last to be affected, The Top ring, which is the main sealing ring and subject to the full force of combustion pressure is first to go... (Just as well the Oil-Control ring is last to go, or the engine could have otherwise end up in a runaway condition where it burns all its lube-oil in a minute or two and hits revs the makers would never have dreamed possible...The danger to life when driving a vehicle when this happens is better not even imagined, You CANT SHUT IT DOWN!....although I dont need to imagine it...Its happened many years ago to me....) This ring gumming is Progressive and Accelerating Process, Thats why its so Insidious! The Veggy builds up in the engine lube-oil.... There comes a 'Critical Mass' point, (although before this, it can thicken to some extent but without careful testing the amount of contamination cannot really be assessed),- where the Mineral Lube-oil and the Veggy oil are in the right proportions with the normal engine heat and other forces to react to form a polymer, and on that fateful day the engine cools after the 'Critical-Mass' has been reached where the lube-oil will set solid, just like jelly! -Seen it happen, Very strange stuff is evolved...Same consistancy as Dessert Jelly, with the wobble and shake to boot, but greenish black opaque and covered in a clear yellow thin oily fluid. It has a slight but weird almost linseed/white spirit type smell too.... Next engine start, youll not have any oil pressure, and if not noticed, engine destruction will occur within minutes..... IF the Lube-Oil is changed, then the risk of Polymerisation is removed....For Now... The Ring-Gumming continues its destructive course, untill the point that there is insufficient compression to attain combustion at all. The outcome is the engine just will not start, Maybe a tow-start will get it going but it will soon die perminently! OK, So you keep an eye on the Lube-Oil level....Great, Spiffin, Marvelous! This will only tell you that incomplete combustion and ring problems have already started, if you see an increase in level.... You could have an engine, maybe not in its first flush of youth or just because of its design, that normally uses a small amount of Lube-Oil anyway, so the slow dilution with veggy will keep pace with its normal oil use....The lube dilution will then not be noticed, or maybe mistaken that the engine is no longer using up its lube-oil....The outcome is inevitable....

15-04-2009, 22:31	#19
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	As you say Jeremy, interesting, and in some engines probably true because of the way their fuel pumps, injection systems or combustion work, but from the wide range of stuff I've read there are engine and fuel pump types that are not recommended and types that are...bottom of the list is the Lucas rotary type pump and any common-rail or direct injection diesel. But the T2 of course has very old-fashioned diesel technology and the top-of-the-list Bosch fuel pump. My neighbour (the retired industrial chemist) has used vegoil for years - his current Pug estate has done 90k-odd miles on a mix varying from 30-75% vegoil and no problems ever - and he is adamant that provided you maintain viscosity either by mixing or preheating (and he only does the former), there won't be any. Its like my acetone thing...you'll find plenty of 'experts' out there willing to tell you it will bugger your fuel system and rot all your pipework and seals....well it hasn't done a thing to my older T2 in seven years and 120k miles....so i think i'll proceed with caution but optimism!

15-04-2009, 22:38	#20
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	and heres the result of the initial experiment! Visited Sainsbury first to relieve them of their last two bottles of vegoil (two at £3.06 for three litres)...then on to tescos for another 3 x 3 litre bottles at only £2.93 each. Tank was just under quarter full, so around 18-20 litres..plus 15 litres of vegoil. so roughly 60-40 diesel-vegoil, oh and a splosh of acetone. went for a spin. after a few miles, surprised to report: 1. Pulls away a tad more smoothly in lower gears 2. A bit quieter all round. 3. Definitely pulls a bit better in mid-range. Could all be perception but I honestly don't think so - I used regular roads that I know the trucks performance on. But heres the rub...if I went to 50-50 ratio in summer at the prices I can bulk buy at, then thats like getting 37.5 mpg on regular price fuel. so am i prepared to risk it? You bet.

15-04-2009, 22:42	#21
Toolbox Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cornwall Vehicle: Oh yes Posts: 1,968	I think your right about direct injection suffering more from the above and cold running on anything over perhaps 50%, I think if the oil is available at the right price then a 2 tank system with heater would be the way forward and worth doing if you want to go down the 100% svo route, being able to start on derv and warm engine up and then stop on derv. Your correct about the Bosch pumps being ok, but the VP44 that I think is in the 3ltr T2 isn’t good on it as far as I understand.

15-04-2009, 22:47	#22
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	Yes i think i'll limit it to 50/50...I'll give that 'permanently on' pump I've just bought off darwin a go for a while, and if this works OK I'll invest in the more expensive German version (£100-odd) that has a 340-watt pre-heater AND coolant connections so that you can switch the former off when the engine is hot and allow the cooling circuit to do the preheating...37mpg will be quite adequate for me thanks!

15-04-2009, 22:56	#23
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	http://www.elsbett.com/gb/about-us/introduction.html these are the makers of the preheater I mentioned above....

15-04-2009, 23:04	#24
extreme-4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: WALES Posts: 6,295	i was thinking of this.... but can i just do a 50 50 mix throughout the summer for now without the preheat stuff... just shove it in if you like what is svo standard veg oil ??? like crisp n dry ? obviously a cheaper version or pointless i recon

15-04-2009, 23:14	#26
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	Colin I swear you should notice a bit of improvement....we'll nip to Tesco saturday...their cheapest straight vegetable oil...£2.93 for a three-litre bottle, so already cheaper than diesel! I think the cheapest (and apparently the best) as above contains rape seed oil...

16-04-2009, 00:01	#29
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	QUESTION - as I'm in bed and not under the truck, does anyone know (i) if there is any flexible fuel pipe between the filter and the pump, and (ii) what size pipe it is..6/8/10mm??

16-04-2009, 07:40	#30
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	Darwin what power is the heater? I read an article a while back that was discussing electrical v's water heated svo warmers. Both had their merits but the conclusion was a combined one was best. Water heated ones are slower to warm the oil so that doesnt help at start up whereas an electrical one that warms the oil sufficiently at start up frazzles it later. I dont know one way or the other having not used one , I'd be interested in your conclusions before you bought (just noticed lacroupes earlier post )