4x4 response - Page 2

lacroupade · 10-01-2010, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by jims-terrano

Have been talking to the Policeman who lives next door this afternoon. As we were chatting I mentioned that I'm on standby for RAYNET. He simply replied "oh you'll be parking on top of a hill and talking nonsense on your radio then". He says that all volunteer services provide nothing that they can't do for them selves. No point going any further with this guy but at the end of the day my standby is because in the first instance WY Police started the ball rolling closely followed by PCT. He says all this rubbish on the news about 4x4 drivers helping out is silly because we don't have the same training as profesionals and we are more likely to cause a problem than resolve them. I replied back and informed him that's possibly why groups like 4x4 response and RAYNET are in the emergency plans.
It's such a shame that people like us who are prepared to get off our back sides to assist others are not given more recognition.

Jim T

Sure he's not just a traffic warden? Sounds like a right knob.

Deleted account DD · 10-01-2010, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jims-terrano

Have been talking to the Policeman who lives next door this afternoon. As we were chatting I mentioned that I'm on standby for RAYNET. He simply replied "oh you'll be parking on top of a hill and talking nonsense on your radio then". He says that all volunteer services provide nothing that they can't do for them selves. No point going any further with this guy but at the end of the day my standby is because in the first instance WY Police started the ball rolling closely followed by PCT. He says all this rubbish on the news about 4x4 drivers helping out is silly because we don't have the same training as profesionals and we are more likely to cause a problem than resolve them. I replied back and informed him that's possibly why groups like 4x4 response and RAYNET are in the emergency plans.
It's such a shame that people like us who are prepared to get off our back sides to assist others are not given more recognition.

Jim T

He doesnt understand, you'll have to forgive him

you'll probably find its all gone strategic/gold irrespective of wether they are permanently sitting or just keeping a watching brief.

Most areas have had at least dedicated tactical/silver open for a while now.

Tell him to join on here and I'll supply him with the contact details for the dept who write and administrate the emergency/contingency plans which incorporate the voluntary sector in his force. I know them some of them well and was down there about 3 months ago

Its also a statutory requirement for local authorities to involve/inform the VA's.

All on here http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ukre...ess/ccact.aspx

As a Cat 1 responder and TAC advisor I've got the guidance on my desk , what an anorak eh

Terranoman · 10-01-2010, 20:20

Well you can reply to him that this 4x4 response member will be conducting the training for his local Fire and rescue service as they don't have trained personnel themselves and that Northants 4x4 RT have been moving fire service personnel around the county.

Why are some coppers like this?

If they don't need the voluntary sector why did the RNLI have to be called to search for the police offer who got swept away when the bridge collapsed in Cumbria? Surely they could have done that themselves?

I work for the Fire service and we call upon the Red Cross upto 10 time PER DAY!!! and we could not do with out them.

Lets hope he gets his car stuck in a drift and has to ask you to pull him out

Rant over LOL

ocelot · 10-01-2010, 21:33

I'm a member of 4x4 response, spent a few days out with North Wales Police based at both Mold and Buckley stations........... did a fair few miles and a number of jobs, the police could not move without 4x4 R involvement whatsoever, their cars were, through their own regulations, grounded. Given the general conditions, especially on higher ground, only a 4x4 would have made the trip. I did works which encompassed taking arrestee's to the nick, towing stuck ambulances and moving officers around the division.
The police were positive, helpful, appreciative and in favour of voluntary groups getting involved. we were all made very welcome and never made to feel like we were just there under sufferance.......

4x4R drivers are all to some degree vetted, CRB etc, achieve a given standard of training, undergo assessments and in general, become part of a team which serves the general public in times like these.

To answer DaveD's question, I can only speak for myself, I believe that I should contribute to my community positively and use my resources for the common good when appropriate. Whether that's at sea as part of a rescue package, or via 4x4 response or even if I encounter a situation when I'm out and about where my resource can make the situation better, then all to the good.

Others, well, some walk or drive by, some are unable to help, a few, and I think it's too few, are willing to expend time, effort and resource to help someone.

davemud · 10-01-2010, 22:24

Hi Ya guys
we at www.Southeast4x4response.ork.uk http://www.southeast4x4response.org.uk/ have been out for the past 5 days upto 50 members at a time
We even had a comand post set up at 1 south east hospitals manned 24rhs
as no staff were able to get in or our with out 4x4 assistance we were even
moving patients to free up bed space
We have a had 4x4 stationed in bad place along routes used buy Ambulances
to asist when and if they get into truble
its been a busy time for us down hear.

zippy656 · 10-01-2010, 22:38

Hi Dave, we have just been stood down in our area for 4x4R are you still on call??

sounlds like you been busy busy..

Deleted account DD · 10-01-2010, 22:43

dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?

ocelot · 11-01-2010, 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?

not sure if this is directed towards me, but, I have a contact directly with north wales police who contacts me on a regular basis on a wider scope of issues, I'm also one of the regional team leaders for CRAG ( www.crag-uk.org ) and have a role in directing rights of way issues in north wales as well as local authority input...........

On the 4x4R front, the coordinator for us is based in mid wales, I'd imagine that many others on here know Mark Margettts. He is also the bloke behind 'Tread Lightly' .

Resources are directed as requested by the various forces, red cross etc........ by the 4x4 response regional control.

Deleted account DD · 11-01-2010, 09:40

It was originally directed at davemud but thanks

I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources.

Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go

Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry.

The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners

Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

iansjones · 11-01-2010, 10:45

heres a question.
When on 4x4 response how are you covered insurance wise?

zippy656 · 11-01-2010, 10:58

you have to talk to your own insurance for road work, but public liability is covered under the 4x4 response insurance.

davemud · 11-01-2010, 12:17

You are covered by your normal car insurance there is a form u have to
send to the insurance company and they stamp to say you are covered

You don't require business cover as you are not transporting people for
hire or reward its all Voluntary work and yes you are allowed to revive
payment for mileage allowances

All the regional groups operate under the National 4x4 response Public liability Policy
and agree to a set minimum standard of requirements.

David

I was one of two on-site controller working with the Hospital Emergency Planing Officer and the Council EPO
we do have some MOU but we had to adjust the procedure to include new request because of the
unprecedented level of requests, all our drivers our instructed to only cover thing they are comfortable with
and decline if they feel the request is to much, and we will then appoint a suitably trained driver and vehicle.

Terranosaurus · 11-01-2010, 12:45

Insurance wise a lot a lot depends on the precise details of the MOU/SLA in place. Some put the responsibility on the user service to provide full insurance cover

From a SLA in place between one group and a Constabulary.

Quote:

3 XYZ AGREE TO:

3.1.....
3.2.....
3.3.....

3.4
Provide full public liability insurance cover and car insurance to ABC 4x4 Response personnel whilst they are deployed in assisting XYZ.

3.5
Provide individual personal accident/death insurance cover to ABC 4x4 Response personnel whilst they are deployed in assisting XYZ.

ocelot · 11-01-2010, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

It was originally directed at davemud but thanks

I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources.

Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go

Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry.

The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners

Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

transporting prisoners only with officers present, bear in mind that many 4x4R drivers are ex mod, trained to a high standard and only with a risk assessment in place, carried out by the driver and officers concerned.
Insurance is covered by 4x4R and also in this instance, my own class 1 commercial use......... terrano is no different from a ford focus wrt health and cleanliness, as for the need for arrest, the main criteria is risk of injury to others if the job is not done..........

Deleted account DD · 11-01-2010, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocelot

transporting prisoners only with officers present, bear in mind that many 4x4R drivers are ex mod, trained to a high standard

Not really relevant I'm afraid

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocelot

terrano is no different from a ford focus wrt health and cleanliness

Thats why for all but the lowest cleanest grade prisoner movement we have vans.

If the criteria applies that the only option is to arrest and remove a person they are in a situation where I WOULD NOT and more to the point HAVE NEVER moved such a prisoner by Ford Focus. They are going to be stressed and potentially hostile although it may not show.

I and others have fallen foul of that and lived (after a couple of ops and a lot of sickness time) to tell the tale, others have not.

A colleague form a neighbouring force was killed by an arsehole he was transporting and graded as low risk who decided it would be a hoot if he made it to and applied the handbrake whilst travelling at speed. He should have been in a van.

I have seen initially compliant and restrained prisoners kick out transit van rear doors on more than one occasion. I have dealt with prisoners who started off calm and by the end of the journey refused to come out of the van and took on all comers....more than once!

You used to always be able to tell an ex police van because unlike builders transits, the dents in the side were from the inside pushing outwards.

I have also seen a prisoner who pissed themsleves deliberately in the back of a fiesta. They were "hello mate" and "yeah no sweat lets get this sorted" at the start.

There is no such thing as a fully compliant and predictable prisoner.

We all make mistakes at the start but no one seems to learn from them

I really do struggle with this one, ie effectively involving the untrained public in jobs with real risk. I dont doubt your motives but I really do believe that the local force has it wrong. The frequency of serious incidents with damage and injury occurring may be low but it happen regularly and only takes one to kill you. Your not joining in at the lower level. The prisoners you describe are potentially up there...thats why theyre being moved

Remember, and theres several members on here will tell you

just cos the cop says, it doesnt mean its right.

10-01-2010, 20:20	#18
Terranoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Northamptonshire Vehicle: Terrano II Posts: 622	Well you can reply to him that this 4x4 response member will be conducting the training for his local Fire and rescue service as they don't have trained personnel themselves and that Northants 4x4 RT have been moving fire service personnel around the county. Why are some coppers like this? If they don't need the voluntary sector why did the RNLI have to be called to search for the police offer who got swept away when the bridge collapsed in Cumbria? Surely they could have done that themselves? I work for the Fire service and we call upon the Red Cross upto 10 time PER DAY!!! and we could not do with out them. Lets hope he gets his car stuck in a drift and has to ask you to pull him out Rant over LOL

10-01-2010, 21:33	#19
ocelot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: merseyside Vehicle: Nissan Terrano 2.7 Posts: 242	I'm a member of 4x4 response, spent a few days out with North Wales Police based at both Mold and Buckley stations........... did a fair few miles and a number of jobs, the police could not move without 4x4 R involvement whatsoever, their cars were, through their own regulations, grounded. Given the general conditions, especially on higher ground, only a 4x4 would have made the trip. I did works which encompassed taking arrestee's to the nick, towing stuck ambulances and moving officers around the division. The police were positive, helpful, appreciative and in favour of voluntary groups getting involved. we were all made very welcome and never made to feel like we were just there under sufferance....... 4x4R drivers are all to some degree vetted, CRB etc, achieve a given standard of training, undergo assessments and in general, become part of a team which serves the general public in times like these. To answer DaveD's question, I can only speak for myself, I believe that I should contribute to my community positively and use my resources for the common good when appropriate. Whether that's at sea as part of a rescue package, or via 4x4 response or even if I encounter a situation when I'm out and about where my resource can make the situation better, then all to the good. Others, well, some walk or drive by, some are unable to help, a few, and I think it's too few, are willing to expend time, effort and resource to help someone.

10-01-2010, 22:24	#20
davemud Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: south east england Vehicle: Patrol 3.0 2007 Auto Posts: 433	Hi Ya guys we at www.Southeast4x4response.ork.uk http://www.southeast4x4response.org.uk/ have been out for the past 5 days upto 50 members at a time We even had a comand post set up at 1 south east hospitals manned 24rhs as no staff were able to get in or our with out 4x4 assistance we were even moving patients to free up bed space We have a had 4x4 stationed in bad place along routes used buy Ambulances to asist when and if they get into truble its been a busy time for us down hear.

10-01-2010, 22:38	#21
zippy656 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Devizes Wiltshire Vehicle: Nissan Note Ntec 1.5 Posts: 14,138	Hi Dave, we have just been stood down in our area for 4x4R are you still on call?? sounlds like you been busy busy..

10-01-2010, 22:43	#22
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?

11-01-2010, 09:40	#24
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	It was originally directed at davemud but thanks I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources. Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry. The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

11-01-2010, 10:45	#25
iansjones Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Stroud, South West England Vehicle: Pathfinder Posts: 220	heres a question. When on 4x4 response how are you covered insurance wise?

11-01-2010, 10:58	#26
zippy656 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Devizes Wiltshire Vehicle: Nissan Note Ntec 1.5 Posts: 14,138	you have to talk to your own insurance for road work, but public liability is covered under the 4x4 response insurance.

11-01-2010, 12:17	#27
davemud Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: south east england Vehicle: Patrol 3.0 2007 Auto Posts: 433	You are covered by your normal car insurance there is a form u have to send to the insurance company and they stamp to say you are covered You don't require business cover as you are not transporting people for hire or reward its all Voluntary work and yes you are allowed to revive payment for mileage allowances All the regional groups operate under the National 4x4 response Public liability Policy and agree to a set minimum standard of requirements. David I was one of two on-site controller working with the Hospital Emergency Planing Officer and the Council EPO we do have some MOU but we had to adjust the procedure to include new request because of the unprecedented level of requests, all our drivers our instructed to only cover thing they are comfortable with and decline if they feel the request is to much, and we will then appoint a suitably trained driver and vehicle.