anti roll bar desperate help needed

[extreme-4x4]

ok i removed the anti roll bar off the back. and the stearing went all stupid on the front.

i fixed the steering... new cross bar and track rod ends

im driving it now and steering is good.... except the bloody thing when going off road it still dont steer where you point it. over bumps and angled slopes

its like when the axel drops the panard rod is twisting the rear axel to the chassis and goes off in its own direction.

its like when the axel goes down 5" it pulls it all out of true several inches

i got a feeling this helped break the steering cross bar last time


im starting to thingk i should have removed the panard rod too ?????

its so scarry when you only got a few inches of road before a big drop . im thinking of re fitting the arb


any help please ???

[makeitfit]

I took my arb off front and back with no terrible probs
It leans a bit on the road but didnt notice what you have had
See if you can get HB to advise

[nejones]

Extreme I haven't experienced anything like you've described.
I wouldn't remove the panhard rod either it sounds like a bad idea to me.

[extreme-4x4]

you both took front and back off. ive only done the back. maybe thats the problem the front is holding it and its going wrong

when i removed the arb i only did the back and changed nothing else did i miss something ?

when i fitted the big springs i only wound the torsion bars up too. nothing else was done did i miss something ?

the stearing is right and tight it does steer very well . its not steering problem its like something is twisting and becoming untrue when on angled slopes and angled ground it goes the wrong way .

its the back drivers side chassis seems to shunt over several inches to the wheels and its having to stear out of it

[tezzer]

i can understand why people take there arb off, but it must alter the steering and suspension geometry some how, [quote]. "nissan/ or what ever make, dont spend millions of pounds on development and testing for nothing". (comments from my college lecturer,when he found out i was lowering/ tuning a cortina ) for the likes of you to alter it, arb are designed to stiffen suspension to stop body roll and help keep wheels to the ground. god forbid in the event of an accident you have the arb on your vehicle or your nicked proberly regarding who was to blame, cos the vehicle IS modified and you wont be insured, trust me i.ve paid thousand over the year in increased insurance cost because i told them what mods i had done, at least i was legal.



tezzer

[Jocky]

After a quick read through this thread it sounds to me that your rear axle is moving out of place. How are the bushes on the panhard rod and trailing arms???

[extreme-4x4]

all good very good. its like when the rear passenger side wheel goes down it pulls the body to the passenger side and when it goes up it pushes it away towards the driver side.

what you would expect that panard rod to do i guess its a brace after all so change the angle it will push or pull

on the road and on flat ground it drives great when articulating its pushing and pulling

maybe its just where its got so much movement in the rear axel now everything feels exaggerated as its a new experience .

or could it be the front is still quite rigid as it still has an arb.

i guess i need to play with the front and see what happens then.


unless someone can suggest i missed something out or not done something i should have when doing these mods

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

i wouldn't remove the panhard. its there to preventide ways and front to rear
movement.

good def on wiki.

as i understand its the equivalent of the structure you would have with leaves,
when combined with trailing arms.

the arb should be ok but consider modding issues v. insurance and all traces of its
mount need removing too unless the tester is blind.

suspect at end of day the ifs is a trade off road against a live axle but then
makes these trucks so much more pleasant on road where they speed most of
their time than their rival discos.

each to own but if serious about off road get a patrol or something from solihull
for a pair of live axles etc.

[Lee3197]

It sounds to me as though you have a worn, (or more than 1), bush somewhere allowing the suspension components to move. I had this on one of my old Disco's. As I accelerated, I had to steer right to keep it in a straight line !

Lee.

[Terranosaurus]

As previous posts - do not remove panard rod, it stops the axle moving sideways. Any live axle wether on coild or leaves needs a panard rod (or equivalnet, watts linkage etc) to properly locate it. Vehicles on leafs rely on the leaves but they do allow the axle to move sideways.

There will be a degree of rear steer from the rear axle when it fles's - its just inherent in the design especially with the short top links that a T2 has, with no ARB you're getting more flex so could be that, removing the front ARB will help even out the handling a bit I found with just the rear removed it started to understeer, taking off the front re-established the balance. Off road removing the front ARB will reduce the amount the rear flexes by allowing the front to do some of the flexing, this may help reduce the effect you ae getting.

I suspect though, that as has been stated above, you have some worn bushes in the trailing links which will exagerate the rear steering effect.


I do agree, to a point, that NIssan spent a lot of money getting the T2 right, though of course the suspension set up is actually from a much older vehicle and they just stuck a shorter chassis under the T2 (especially in SWB guise). However Nissan set the vehicle up as a compromise, biased towards on road use.

If your leaning (no pun intended) is more towards off road use then you can definitely make improvements. I spent many years building rally cars (for some of that time it was my full time job) and you most certainly can improve on standard set ups in respective enviroments.

ARBs are fitted to vehicles for in order to allow softer road springs (for passenger comfort) to be fitted whilst still maintaining acceptable levels of body roll (again for passenger comfort).

On macpherson strut and similar set ups it is necessary to control body roll to maintain suspension geometry too as any roll tends induce a similar amount of dynamic positive camber in the outside loaded tyres. ie you run on the outside edge of the tyre and the inside lifts - not good, the tyre needs to remain in full contact for good grip. This is why touring car and similar sallons run on almost solid suspension as with the wide racing rubber they cannot tolerate mch variance in tyre angle. It is also why most racing saloons and many fast road cars, to a lesser degree, have static negative camber so that under roll the tyre comes upright.

With a beam axle this is not necessary, as the axle itself hold the wheels/tyres perpendicular to the road.

Likewise twin wishbone set ups (as on the front of a T2) do not suffer fron the inherent problems of the macpherson strut and are usually designed so as to negate body roll and maintain at least the outer wheel in an upright position.

ARBs do not increase grip in fact they reduce it, by trying to lift the unloaded wheel further off the floor - anyone remember 3 wheeling lotus cortinas and Mk1/2 escorts.


Further on Mk1 and Mk2 escorts as a bit of a case study.

Early base model Mk1s had no anti roll bars front or rear, higher spec models got front anti roll bars combined with softer front springs, sports models got and stiffer springs. On the base model it was down to cost the did what was cheapest. On the sports models they traded comfort for handling and the more luxury models were biased for comfort - relative terms this was the late 60s/early 70s.

This pattern was also echoed at the rear in a more pronounced way with the mk2 escort (based on an almost identical floorpan and suspension setup). The more basic models, L, GL etc had no rear antiroll bar. The Ghia models got a rear ARB, this was purely to control roll and to allow the fitting of softer rear springs for comfort as of course they had a beam axle which doesn't need the geometry controlling. The sports models, RS2000, RS1800 Mexico RS etc had no rear antiroll bar as with the Mk1 these were fitted with anti-tramp bars to locate the rear axle more properly where with the more basic models you could most definitely feel the axle moving around if you drove them hard.

[extreme-4x4]

thanks simon thats just the answer i was looking for.

i think all the other components are in good shape
i had left the front arb on the hopefully give it some stability on the road. but it appears this is having the opposite effect off road.
so ill remove it. and see how it feels

some of this could be psychological im very funny about cars bikes not doing what i expect them to do. bad motorbike crash tends to leave you nervous i guess


thanks extreme

[Jocky]

extreme 4x4 glad you got the answer


Wish I still had my 1976 MK2 RS2000 in signal Yellow

I spent a small fortune in the mid 80's making it handle better, brake better and go much faster
Had it for 5 years and sold it to a boy racer who had it sprayed Salmon Pink ( oh my god ) and wrapped it round a lamp post muppeteek:

[nejones]

[QUOTE=tezzer;34357]i can understand why people take there arb off, but it must alter the steering and suspension geometry some how,

. "nissan/ or what ever make, dont spend millions of pounds on development and testing for nothing". (comments from my college lecturer,when he found out i was lowering/ tuning a cortina ) for the likes of you to alter it, arb are designed to stiffen suspension to stop body roll and help keep wheels to the ground. god forbid in the event of an accident you have the arb on your vehicle or your nicked proberly regarding who was to blame, cos the vehicle IS modified and you wont be insured, trust me i.ve paid thousand over the year in increased insurance cost because i told them what mods i had done, at least i was legal.



tezzer

Every mod on my vehicle even including the front spotlights is listed in writing with my insurers. None of them have made a difference to my insurance premium over the standard vehicle. Oh, that makes me legal too