4x4 response

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

plank, my normal def of a volunteer at least at work is

"someone who doesnt understand the question"

just kidding, i think

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by Thomas-the-Terrano2

your comments about prisoners is frankly a wake up call. my own family have to use
this car as well.

Thanks Jim I mentioned this thread to my missus and the first thing she said was needles, drugs and damage. Honestly mate in earlier days I worked on a double crewed lock up van. Its the prefered method for moving any prisoner. I saw allsorts.

On the subject of needles and what have you I know I searched the van coming on shift and I searched it after every prisoner as youre supposed to do. The things and the places a cuffed prisoner can stash stuff in a transit are amazing.

Our vehicles (which i dont use anymore ) now have easy clean, reinforced, no hidden ledges plastic "cells" in them for all the reasons I've mentioned, We also tried moulded linings and plastic seats in Ford Focus's. Dont know what the result of those were.

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by PLANK

theword
What is a Volunteer?

Good question

[(RIP) PLANK]

Originally Posted by Thomas-the-Terrano2

plank, my normal def of a volunteer at least at work is

"someone who doesnt understand the question"

just kidding, i think

as good an answer as any i have found

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Originally Posted by daved

Thanks Jim I mentioned this thread to my missus and the first thing she said was needles, drugs and damage. Honestly mate in earlier days I worked on a double crewed lock up van. Its the prefered method for moving any prisoner. I saw allsorts.

On the subject of needles and what have you I know I searched the van coming on shift and I searched it after every prisoner as youre supposed to do. The things and the places a cuffed prisoner can stash stuff in a transit are amazing.

Our vehicles (which i dont use anymore ) now have easy clean, reinforced, no hidden ledges plastic "cells" in them for all the reasons I've mentioned, We also tried moulded linings and plastic seats in Ford Focus's. Dont know what the result of those were.

Can apprecate this knowing what shit we used to find on the buses at sweeping off
time. hard to believe that these lovely people would stuff syringes down side of seats.
few close shaves when only seed needle at last minute.

[jims-terrano]

Originally Posted by daved

Thanks Jim I mentioned this thread to my missus and the first thing she said was needles, drugs and damage. Honestly mate in earlier days I worked on a double crewed lock up van. Its the prefered method for moving any prisoner. I saw allsorts.

Bog off Dave, it wasn't me

Have to say I doubt that the occasion would ever arrise with me but I would point blank refuse to transport prisoners I don't mind nurses tho

Jim T

[jims-terrano]

This has turned out to be an interesting debate hasn't it.

I joined RAYNET mainly to help out the local Hospices on a Sunday morning, gets me out in the fresh air, made friends, get a good feeling knowing I've done some good and gets me away from Mrs T

The Emergency side of things is good too, again you get the feeling that you've done some good in this world and heaven knows there's little enough of that.

I think my neighbour is probably a minority in not being appreciative but hey you get that kind of person in every walk of life. I've PM'd DaveD several times and know he's got a good idea of RAYNET and other volunteers and what services people are happy to give for the good of the community they live in. I've spoekn with several emergency planners in this area and know they too appreciate the value of volunteers and certainly one in particular.

I'm just happy to do my bit whether it is when needed in an emergency or just the local hospices (4 in the area) fun run's or what ever. If I ever stopped enjoying doing this type of work then may be I'll stop but until that time I'll carry on.

Jim T

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by jims-terrano

Bog off Dave, it wasn't me

Have to say I doubt that the occasion would ever arrise with me but I would point blank refuse to transport prisoners I don't mind nurses tho

Jim T

ooops sorry all I can create a new word "name pissed" or maybe just cough I got mixed up

[Deleted account DD]

Jim (got it right ) , I think your neighour is the minority , I'm glad we're not all tarred with the same brush.

RayNet , to name just one org, do a great job, they lose me when they talk all technical and I fall back on the "so can you speak to him from there" question.

However I do recall reading an old plan somewhere where they were one org who would be requested to provide comms post nuclear holocaust...........now.......how could we have a live play exercise to validate and practice for that

[lacroupade]

Originally Posted by daved

It is exactly the same failing as the one why dont police forces have some 4x4s ? its not as if theyre like snowploughs and cant be used for 8 months of the year.

Cos those motorway 'traffic officer' jerks have not only taken your jobs away, they've nicked your 4x4 budget as well.....still, wouldn't be such an attractive job if they had to plough up and down the motorway in something that was actually useful, like a Transit eh?!

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Originally Posted by lacroupade

Cos those motorway 'traffic officer' jerks have not only taken your jobs away, they've nicked your 4x4 budget as well.....still, wouldn't be such an attractive job if they had to plough up and down the motorway in something that was actually useful, like a Transit eh?!

frankly for every rangey they could have 2 pathfinders, not sure what evos run at but
guessing more than a pf too.

bit different for the nhs trusts, but sure most commercials offer a 4wd option, even
a couple in in fleet for trips to the sticks? South yorks has atleast a lr110 support
vehicle for tugging.

as JT i'd be far more comfortable helping casulties or ferrying midwifes and district
nurses. or heaven forbid just checking my immediate eldery neighbours are ok for
basics.

I'm sure everyone I know thru this site does what they do on a selfless basis and in no
way would i wish to come across at critising their actions, nor are they inflating
their egos as per 1 comment. But it still begs the question why are civilians doing
work for the country that should be provided by the country. ok this is nothing new
I am more than aware that the the air ambulances, the RNLI and mountain rescue
are generally charity funded and staffed by trained volunteers. but to my knowledge
they dont use their own personal equipment. perhaps though they started this way.

last thought if you're looking for 4x4s to enlist try the local TA, mine has ready supply
of LRs and larger trucks. believe they've got drivers too!

[Terranosaurus]

Originally Posted by Thomas-the-Terrano2

as JT i'd be far more comfortable helping casulties or ferrying midwifes and district
nurses.

Just the sort of jobs most 4x4 Responders have been doing, although not so much the casualties. Its more a case of enabling and assisting the existing services to continue doing their jobs. So getting key staff into work is a big one, but out of hours and on call services, midwifes, district nurses etc are all run of the mill 4x4 Response jobs - the talk of prisoners by Ocelot is an isolated incident and all responder are free to say no to any job at any time.

Originally Posted by Thomas-the-Terrano2

I'm sure everyone I know thru this site does what they do on a selfless basis and in no
way would i wish to come across at critising their actions, nor are they inflating
their egos as per 1 comment. But it still begs the question why are civilians doing
work for the country that should be provided by the country. ok this is nothing new
I am more than aware that the the air ambulances, the RNLI and mountain rescue
are generally charity funded and staffed by trained volunteers. but to my knowledge
they dont use their own personal equipment. perhaps though they started this way.

last thought if you're looking for 4x4s to enlist try the local TA, mine has ready supply
of LRs and larger trucks. believe they've got drivers too!

I think a fair few mountain rescue outfits do use members vehicle and plenty of other equipment too - sure they'll no doubt have a main vehicle or 2 but often need more than that so use members ones.

The issue at both ends is funding, doesn't matter wether 4x4 Response had their own vehicles or government agencies had their own - where is the money going to come from to have them sat around for 11 1/2 months of the year.

As for the TA and Army - the problem is with all the paperwork etc and general permissions and red tape it can take 24 or 48 hours to mobilise military assistance. I had a call at 3am on saturday night just gone, it was to recover an Ambulance stuck on sheet ice. I (as controller for YL4x4REsponse) had a guy on scene, job done and back in bed inside an hour.

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

not usre about 11.5 months, had floods in spring summer and autumn. guess they could
hire in, and senior staff well they can afford their own or choose not to just like we all
choose to in first place.

even st johns have gone some trolls and landies and used all year round.

[Terranosaurus]

Not sure about St Johns, but certainly Red Cross have got plenty 4x4s, Landrover gave them 30 for UK and 30 for international last year. Many are up in the NW (COckermouth) at the moment, certainly Yorkshires are, thus I've had them on the phone last week. Problem is they don't really have anyone to drive em. YL4x4 Response have put 16 of their guys through basic 4x4/offroad training but without regular refreshers like anyone learning anything they will forget.

But all these organisations started somewhere, 4x4 Response might be 30 years old as a concept but as a proper national organisation it is only a couple of years old. The RNLI started out small with people using their own gear - I'm not saying 4x4 Response will ever get that big but it is certainly a target to head for.


I am told WY part of YAS (Yroks Ambulance Service) hired in 40 octavia 4x4s and 20 Defenders - just imagine the bill involved there. I doubt those octavias were on any hire fleet, likely to be have bought in for the job - expect to se some going through car sales in a month or so.

Once upon a time people would have copped themselves and not whinged that the bin wasn't emptied one week because of bad weather - North Yorkshire still does on the whole for instance and other people would have just helped out from a sense of community mindedness, without the need for organised assistance from the likes of 4x4 Response. Instead these days we get jack the lads with 4x4s charging for tows up hills etc, I've even heard of instances of people being seemingly deliberately run off the road by a 4x4 who then offers to tow them out for a charge.

I'm afraid the growing demands on and expectations of the public services will mean ever more relience on the voluntary sector in many areass. To many people expect so much but very few are willing to pay for it in taxation.

[ocelot]

Originally Posted by daved

Right, just got in from work , made a short response to this from my phone browser, no idea where that's gone but I'll just restate a couple of points, I have a significant real time interest in this subject and I have no doubts or problems with the motivation and morals of the majority of participants. My concerns are entirely professional and actually tend towards protecting the 4x4 brigade.

Ocelot, you have missed the point completely and I do wonder the motives of semi disclosing your background whatever the context unless its to (drum roll) give an air of mystery and suspense

A warrant card as you describe yourself holding and they used to be called is effectively a public document, its not secret, it is meant to be produced to identify you and accredit your powers ie what you are warranted by the relevant official bodies to do. Most, even at the highest clearance levels are happy to say what they do just no details of the parts that require clearance. eg I'm an electronics technician working on a confidential project. I actually had a friend who did that for a living. Programming systems on helicopter anti sub missiles. Never knew where he was working or the details of it.

Thats what puzzles me about your semi disclosure, its all over the place.

The reason behind vetting, checking out or security clearance. whatever term you choose is far from an exclusive club.Theres loads of us around and the levels range from a basic voluntary check way way up the scale where they know all sorts (friend of mine had a very interesting chat with the checking officer from London about his internet viewing habits so he says anyway ) What security clearance serves to do is demonstrate at a certain time you are unlikely to be dishonest or corrupt not open to coercion. Most official or state employees have also signed the official secrets act too.

Pretty boring stuff really........no very boring actually (ps for any hackers or moles out there theres no graded docs on this machine at all )

Now what does that prove as far as 4x4 response goes?

Very little actually.

The main point , and it is a good one, is that you are unlikely to disclose information inappropriately. eg someone transporting a care worker around is unlikely to later sell a list of all vulnerable folk to Billy Burglar.

So how do individuals carrying out voluntary work in 4x4s get "clearance". Mountain rescue are probably a good example. Part of the agreement up here that brings them in under the Health working umbrella is that each person on duty has been vetted and cleared. Thats why a lot of areas politely decline some volunteers.

Now the original point which Ocelot missed.

Depending on what your "warrant card" is and in the absence of up to date qualifications in several areas up to date you are in certain elements of training you probably are an untrained member of the public. More world wise, demonstrated integrity, maybe previously qualified but in modern accountable terms still an untrained member of the public.

Therfore carrying prisoners in circumstances an officer would not is what I have a problem with. Risk assesed yes, but the hazard remains at all times (look at the example I gave) and is very real. One persons risk assesment does not mean other qualified people agree. If it is essential a prisoner is transported it is unlikely they are suitable for transport by car. If they are at a level suitable for transport by car, legislation as well as common sense guides towards being dealt with by other means.

Some police services have failed in several forseeable areas under common law and statutory guidlines. Using your goodwill and enthusiasm is an ongoing sticking plaster fix. Like a sticking plaster it will fall off at some point. Thats when , maybe not you in your world but more "normal" people if they live to tell the tale could find themselves in worrying situations.

Things you may be asked at the subsequent enquiry,

"When was you last pst qualification?
when were you last first aid trained to standard?
when did you last do your driving course? have you got an accredited 4x4 qualification?
Can I have a look at the policy/decision log directing your operational activities?...............
I mean after all Mr Volunteer you were carrying out the role during a police operation of a police driver and that is the least they are qualified to"

Theyre just a few of the questions I would ask you, I suspect I wouldnt like to be trying to find the answers either. I strongly suspect silence may follow those questions.

This is nothing personal and as I said I admire the motives of most.









ps I would love to see the risk assessment that says no one will kick , piss or puke in your car.

or push needles right into the rear cushion (yes they can do it whilst cuffed) so they slowly work their way back out honestly, things like that are what concern me.

Afternoon DaveD,
Thanks for your comments, this is a debate worth having on exactly what does happen, could happen and indeed, should happen during a 4x4R or similar type of callout.
my own background is military, primarily communciations. I've seen active service in many parts of the world both in a front line, and support role. My work has been governed by rules of engagement, which if you understand the meaning, should convey a great deal.
I'm working these days for a number of agencies, typically in a comms role, but still actively involved in operational duties with clear parameters. My terminology is old school, I'm quite ancient you know the ID I carry I still call a warrant card, it simply allows me to do my job and when presented, identifies me and determines my role as does yours.........
I was in part trained in Cwmbran at the PTC and also Bruche, where I've also been a trainer when both establishments were in use. I remain a course instructor in certain types of systems.
My last pst was a long time ago admittedly, it's not needed in my role as such and I'm not allowed to search. The offender searches were carried out by the two escorting officers.
In terms of first aid, my last course was December 2009 and is required to be redone on a yearly basis, as for vetting, it remains current and is reviewed every year. I have completed two driving course, the basic and standard roadcraft courses of which you will be aware. The 4x4 courses were military in nature although delivered by a sub contractor and led to LANTRA qualifications. I undertake CPD on a yearly basis.

The risk assessment carried out by the officers was goverened by the weather conditions at the time, the vehicle's suitability and my own verified credentials. The prisioners were searched, then handcuffed and escorted at all times. Far from ideal and yes, the plastic lined transit would be far more suitable, but as the 4x4 budget is eaten up by 'traffic', the only option at that time was a 4x4R vehicle.

The work the police in particular does, is difficult to say the least and also far removed from most of our experience, dealing with violent offenders, drug addicts etc takes huge patience and a great depth of character and every police officer who carries out his or her duties in a concientious and professional manner should be given the respect due. I for one, wouldn't want to to their job.

In the same way DaveD, we work for the same goals, the same ideals and with the same integrity, our roles are vastly different, I couldn't do your job, and you certainly couldn't do mine so rather than chipping away at what little I've been able to do, wouldn't it be better to further the aims of 4x4R from within the force? I'm sure your superiors would be very interested.