4x4 response - Page 4

(RIP) PLANK · 14-01-2010, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

pmsl are you sure it wasnt the ones who actually check what you have been looking at and are looking at on line?

interesting and humourous, but your abreviations are wasted on me, i just dont understand them at all

pmsl?

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLANK

interesting and humourous, but your abreviations are wasted on me, i just dont understand them at all

pmsl?

pissing myself laughing. I found ocelots reply and the subsequent comments highly amusing

(RIP) PLANK · 14-01-2010, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

pissing myself laughing. I found ocelots reply and the subsequent comments highly amusing

well i'm not good with acts or secrets either, i tend to take life a little less seriously

i'm off to open a bottle of Shiraz, Hungarian, but then what can you expect for £2.99? at least i wont have to find the cork screw

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLANK

well i'm not good with acts or secrets either, i tend to take life a little less seriously

i'm off to open a bottle of Shiraz, Hungarian, but then what can you expect for £2.99? at least i wont have to find the cork screw

Enjoy

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 21:56

Right, just got in from work , made a short response to this from my phone browser, no idea where that's gone

but I'll just restate a couple of points, I have a significant real time interest in this subject and I have no doubts or problems with the motivation and morals of the majority of participants. My concerns are entirely professional and actually tend towards protecting the 4x4 brigade.

Ocelot, you have missed the point completely and I do wonder the motives of semi disclosing your background whatever the context unless its to (drum roll) give an air of mystery and suspense

A warrant card as you describe yourself holding and they used to be called is effectively a public document, its not secret, it is meant to be produced to identify you and accredit your powers ie what you are warranted by the relevant official bodies to do. Most, even at the highest clearance levels are happy to say what they do just no details of the parts that require clearance. eg I'm an electronics technician working on a confidential project. I actually had a friend who did that for a living. Programming systems on helicopter anti sub missiles. Never knew where he was working or the details of it.

Thats what puzzles me about your semi disclosure, its all over the place.

The reason behind vetting, checking out or security clearance. whatever term you choose is far from an exclusive club.Theres loads of us around and the levels range from a basic voluntary check way way up the scale where they know all sorts (friend of mine had a very interesting chat with the checking officer from London about his internet viewing habits

so he says anyway

) What security clearance serves to do is demonstrate at a certain time you are unlikely to be dishonest or corrupt not open to coercion. Most official or state employees have also signed the official secrets act too.

Pretty boring stuff really........no very boring actually (ps for any hackers or moles out there theres no graded docs on this machine at all

)

Now what does that prove as far as 4x4 response goes?

Very little actually.

The main point , and it is a good one, is that you are unlikely to disclose information inappropriately. eg someone transporting a care worker around is unlikely to later sell a list of all vulnerable folk to Billy Burglar.

So how do individuals carrying out voluntary work in 4x4s get "clearance". Mountain rescue are probably a good example. Part of the agreement up here that brings them in under the Health working umbrella is that each person on duty has been vetted and cleared. Thats why a lot of areas politely decline some volunteers.

Now the original point which Ocelot missed.

Depending on what your "warrant card" is and in the absence of up to date qualifications in several areas up to date you are in certain elements of training you probably are an untrained member of the public. More world wise, demonstrated integrity, maybe previously qualified but in modern accountable terms still an untrained member of the public.

Therfore carrying prisoners in circumstances an officer would not is what I have a problem with. Risk assesed yes, but the hazard remains at all times (look at the example I gave) and is very real. One persons risk assesment does not mean other qualified people agree. If it is essential a prisoner is transported it is unlikely they are suitable for transport by car. If they are at a level suitable for transport by car, legislation as well as common sense guides towards being dealt with by other means.

Some police services have failed in several forseeable areas under common law and statutory guidlines. Using your goodwill and enthusiasm is an ongoing sticking plaster fix. Like a sticking plaster it will fall off at some point. Thats when , maybe not you in your world but more "normal" people if they live to tell the tale could find themselves in worrying situations.

Things you may be asked at the subsequent enquiry,

"When was you last pst qualification?
when were you last first aid trained to standard?
when did you last do your driving course? have you got an accredited 4x4 qualification?
Can I have a look at the policy/decision log directing your operational activities?...............
I mean after all Mr Volunteer you were carrying out the role during a police operation of a police driver and that is the least they are qualified to"

Theyre just a few of the questions I would ask you, I suspect I wouldnt like to be trying to find the answers either. I strongly suspect silence may follow those questions.

This is nothing personal and as I said I admire the motives of most.

ps I would love to see the risk assessment that says no one will kick , piss or puke in your car.

or push needles right into the rear cushion (yes they can do it whilst cuffed) so they slowly work their way back out

honestly, things like that are what concern me.

makeitfit · 14-01-2010, 22:24

Ha Ha mr crim going to get a rough ride in my truck

I've got no back seats

Do you think H&S will let me cable tie him to a roll cage

If he's still kicking off I'll roll the sod

4x4 response I think I like

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by makeitfit

Ha Ha mr crim going to get a rough ride in my truck

I've got no back seats

Do you think H&S will let me cable tie him to a roll cage

If he's still kicking off I'll roll the sod

4x4 response I think I like

Tbh honest I think some may see it as a good scheme

Thomas-the-Terrano2 · 14-01-2010, 23:00

well this is all very enlightening. cheers DaveD for real world insight. was toying
with joining up, but along with those comments posted by JimT ref his neighbour
starting to think why bother.

Putting our family pride and joy on firing line to help out organisations that dont
appreciate your actions, ok maybe those you work with directly or not but hey
these bodies have literally bottom less pots which they could employ 4x4s of
their own but save money so we can come along and bail em out at our expense
and risk, frankly 40p per mile is hardly compo for when it goes wrong.

further being away from my family with sole vehicle and whos gonna replace that
when something hits the fan. frankly its a bit like joe public isnt slipping and
sliding around. we spent 5k on the troll and most of them spent alot more on
some stupid sports car or saloon, pays your money and all that.

ok if i come across a some one really stuck in an emergency i'll help out if safe
to do so having performed a quick risk assessment on an ad hoc basis but
otherwise this truck is for my family thats why we saved for it and cant see any
one of these bodies recipricating for me and tugging our caravan when the troll
is off the road.

good luck guys, hope you dont think i'm selfish, i really respect what you are
doing and hope your loved ones enjoy it as much as you but its just not for me.

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 23:21

I hope youre not classing me in with Jims neighbour!!!!!!! I offered to put him right!

I have A LOT of dealings with voluntarey agencies and have a lot of respect for them.

Liam · 14-01-2010, 23:25

Ok,slightly off topic but also concerns volunteers. Here in the Emerald Isle our Health Service is in tatters so hospitals are stuck for funding for equipment,along comes Joe Public whose son/daughter is need of such equipment. Being a good person ,he organises fund raising for much needed equipment ,which is then bought and given to hospital to save lives and saves Government spending cash on such equipment. Good scheme? Yes,hospital gets equipment but fundraisers get VAT bill of 21% from revenue for their efforts. All money raised has been donated by taxpayers who already paid tax on same cash. Is it the same in the UK?

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 23:30

Jim, theres nothing wrong with volunteering and joining the 4x4 just make sure that everything is covered

Deleted account DD · 14-01-2010, 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam

Ok,slightly off topic but also concerns volunteers. Here in the Emerald Isle our Health Service is in tatters so hospitals are stuck for funding for equipment,along comes Joe Public whose son/daughter is need of such equipment. Being a good person ,he organises fund raising for much needed equipment ,which is then bought and given to hospital to save lives and saves Government spending cash on such equipment. Good scheme? Yes,hospital gets equipment but fundraisers get VAT bill of 21% from revenue for their efforts. All money raised has been donated by taxpayers who already paid tax on same cash. Is it the same in the UK?

That is disgraceful And funnily enough far from way off topic.

Top marks to them but theres no reason why fundraisers should have to buy equipment for official bodies. If they do buy kit it should be lcd teles, stereos and other non essentials that public money cant be expected to cover.

It is exactly the same failing as the one why dont police forces have some 4x4s ? its not as if theyre like snowploughs and cant be used for 8 months of the year.

Thomas-the-Terrano2 · 14-01-2010, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by daved

I hope youre not classing me in with Jims neighbour!!!!!!! I offered to put him right!

I have A LOT of dealings with voluntarey agencies and have a lot of respect for them.

nope, but value your down to earth honest opinion, like you know previously, Jims
neighbour sounds an arse but frankly shows that there is some negative opinion
on the inside of the agencies too.

stated my respect, would likely contribute to their fund raising though cynically like
most charitable collections you tend to feel that its letting some other body ie the
taxpayer off the hook.

if we had a second vehicle and i could commit to the time ie didnt need existing
salary and would want to be a volunteer then would be a good cause just not
on my circumstances currently.

ive done vlunteer work before, a driver on world student games in 91 in sheffield
but didnt use my car, ithink this is the crux of the matter using your own hardware
after all other charitable groups rnli, mountain rescue have their own gear.

your comments about prisoners is frankly a wake up call. my own family have to use
this car as well.

14-01-2010, 23:44

I think for some its a good idea however its not something that floats my boat.

As a ''Crim''

unlikley they would let me join anyway , TBH that film showed me all I wanted to know and gave me more reasons not to join than join.

They seem (at least the ones on the film) seem to be the same type that wants to be a Police special , there are prob some good ones but all that I have met have been lacking in certain skills.

(RIP) PLANK · 14-01-2010, 23:45

theword volunteer is banded about quite freely in all this and in voluntary agencies in general.

A couple of years ago i completed and MA in voluntary sector organisations policy and practice, a bit of a mouth full, but i heleped develope the course and so sat in and did it as a guinea pig

now, i have been through this many times to try and establish a working defiinition and its not a simple one

What is a Volunteer?

and dont say some one who isn't paid as its obvious and wrong!

P.S. I agrree with TT2 on this!

14-01-2010, 23:00	#53
Thomas-the-Terrano2 Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hackenthorpe Sheffield Vehicle: Terrano2 R20 lwb 2.7TDi Posts: 5,234	well this is all very enlightening. cheers DaveD for real world insight. was toying with joining up, but along with those comments posted by JimT ref his neighbour starting to think why bother. Putting our family pride and joy on firing line to help out organisations that dont appreciate your actions, ok maybe those you work with directly or not but hey these bodies have literally bottom less pots which they could employ 4x4s of their own but save money so we can come along and bail em out at our expense and risk, frankly 40p per mile is hardly compo for when it goes wrong. further being away from my family with sole vehicle and whos gonna replace that when something hits the fan. frankly its a bit like joe public isnt slipping and sliding around. we spent 5k on the troll and most of them spent alot more on some stupid sports car or saloon, pays your money and all that. ok if i come across a some one really stuck in an emergency i'll help out if safe to do so having performed a quick risk assessment on an ad hoc basis but otherwise this truck is for my family thats why we saved for it and cant see any one of these bodies recipricating for me and tugging our caravan when the troll is off the road. good luck guys, hope you dont think i'm selfish, i really respect what you are doing and hope your loved ones enjoy it as much as you but its just not for me. __________________ M6YTB / 20YTB '60' 2010 Ford C Max Zetec 1.6i, black '56' 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0TD, silver 2021 Bailey Pegasus Grade SE Turin caravan Smile, its more likely to confuse. One Life, Don't Just Live It, Drive a Nissan, or ...... a Jeep. Owner of Nissan 4x4s 2005 to 2019, and maybe in the future too!

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14-01-2010, 21:56	#50
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	Right, just got in from work , made a short response to this from my phone browser, no idea where that's gone but I'll just restate a couple of points, I have a significant real time interest in this subject and I have no doubts or problems with the motivation and morals of the majority of participants. My concerns are entirely professional and actually tend towards protecting the 4x4 brigade. Ocelot, you have missed the point completely and I do wonder the motives of semi disclosing your background whatever the context unless its to (drum roll) give an air of mystery and suspense A warrant card as you describe yourself holding and they used to be called is effectively a public document, its not secret, it is meant to be produced to identify you and accredit your powers ie what you are warranted by the relevant official bodies to do. Most, even at the highest clearance levels are happy to say what they do just no details of the parts that require clearance. eg I'm an electronics technician working on a confidential project. I actually had a friend who did that for a living. Programming systems on helicopter anti sub missiles. Never knew where he was working or the details of it. Thats what puzzles me about your semi disclosure, its all over the place. The reason behind vetting, checking out or security clearance. whatever term you choose is far from an exclusive club.Theres loads of us around and the levels range from a basic voluntary check way way up the scale where they know all sorts (friend of mine had a very interesting chat with the checking officer from London about his internet viewing habits so he says anyway ) What security clearance serves to do is demonstrate at a certain time you are unlikely to be dishonest or corrupt not open to coercion. Most official or state employees have also signed the official secrets act too. Pretty boring stuff really........no very boring actually (ps for any hackers or moles out there theres no graded docs on this machine at all ) Now what does that prove as far as 4x4 response goes? Very little actually. The main point , and it is a good one, is that you are unlikely to disclose information inappropriately. eg someone transporting a care worker around is unlikely to later sell a list of all vulnerable folk to Billy Burglar. So how do individuals carrying out voluntary work in 4x4s get "clearance". Mountain rescue are probably a good example. Part of the agreement up here that brings them in under the Health working umbrella is that each person on duty has been vetted and cleared. Thats why a lot of areas politely decline some volunteers. Now the original point which Ocelot missed. Depending on what your "warrant card" is and in the absence of up to date qualifications in several areas up to date you are in certain elements of training you probably are an untrained member of the public. More world wise, demonstrated integrity, maybe previously qualified but in modern accountable terms still an untrained member of the public. Therfore carrying prisoners in circumstances an officer would not is what I have a problem with. Risk assesed yes, but the hazard remains at all times (look at the example I gave) and is very real. One persons risk assesment does not mean other qualified people agree. If it is essential a prisoner is transported it is unlikely they are suitable for transport by car. If they are at a level suitable for transport by car, legislation as well as common sense guides towards being dealt with by other means. Some police services have failed in several forseeable areas under common law and statutory guidlines. Using your goodwill and enthusiasm is an ongoing sticking plaster fix. Like a sticking plaster it will fall off at some point. Thats when , maybe not you in your world but more "normal" people if they live to tell the tale could find themselves in worrying situations. Things you may be asked at the subsequent enquiry, "When was you last pst qualification? when were you last first aid trained to standard? when did you last do your driving course? have you got an accredited 4x4 qualification? Can I have a look at the policy/decision log directing your operational activities?............... I mean after all Mr Volunteer you were carrying out the role during a police operation of a police driver and that is the least they are qualified to" Theyre just a few of the questions I would ask you, I suspect I wouldnt like to be trying to find the answers either. I strongly suspect silence may follow those questions. This is nothing personal and as I said I admire the motives of most. ps I would love to see the risk assessment that says no one will kick , piss or puke in your car. or push needles right into the rear cushion (yes they can do it whilst cuffed) so they slowly work their way back out honestly, things like that are what concern me.

14-01-2010, 22:24	#51
makeitfit Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: on the beach WEST WALES Vehicle: Maverick TDi BLACK mmm Posts: 15,136	Ha Ha mr crim going to get a rough ride in my truck I've got no back seats Do you think H&S will let me cable tie him to a roll cage If he's still kicking off I'll roll the sod 4x4 response I think I like

14-01-2010, 23:21	#54
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	I hope youre not classing me in with Jims neighbour!!!!!!! I offered to put him right! I have A LOT of dealings with voluntarey agencies and have a lot of respect for them.

14-01-2010, 23:25	#55
Liam Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Laois,Ireland Posts: 923	Ok,slightly off topic but also concerns volunteers. Here in the Emerald Isle our Health Service is in tatters so hospitals are stuck for funding for equipment,along comes Joe Public whose son/daughter is need of such equipment. Being a good person ,he organises fund raising for much needed equipment ,which is then bought and given to hospital to save lives and saves Government spending cash on such equipment. Good scheme? Yes,hospital gets equipment but fundraisers get VAT bill of 21% from revenue for their efforts. All money raised has been donated by taxpayers who already paid tax on same cash. Is it the same in the UK?

14-01-2010, 23:30	#56
Deleted account DD Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,705	Jim, theres nothing wrong with volunteering and joining the 4x4 just make sure that everything is covered

14-01-2010, 23:44	#59
Darwin Guest Posts: n/a	I think for some its a good idea however its not something that floats my boat. As a ''Crim'' unlikley they would let me join anyway , TBH that film showed me all I wanted to know and gave me more reasons not to join than join. They seem (at least the ones on the film) seem to be the same type that wants to be a Police special , there are prob some good ones but all that I have met have been lacking in certain skills.

14-01-2010, 23:45	#60
(RIP) PLANK Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Central England, in the Heart of the Black Country Vehicle: T2 2004 TDI SE LWB Posts: 7,740	theword volunteer is banded about quite freely in all this and in voluntary agencies in general. A couple of years ago i completed and MA in voluntary sector organisations policy and practice, a bit of a mouth full, but i heleped develope the course and so sat in and did it as a guinea pig now, i have been through this many times to try and establish a working defiinition and its not a simple one What is a Volunteer? and dont say some one who isn't paid as its obvious and wrong! P.S. I agrree with TT2 on this!