Sheriff joe is at it again!

[tezzer]

Originally Posted by PLANK

crime and punishment is a complicated issue, and prisons don't work - fact.

I se the point that they may not deserve an easy life - but - does treating people badly, and leaving them to behave badly just make the worse, would setting a good example for the way you expect them to behave be better? i.e. not just saying 'be good' but showing people how to 'be good' as if it was obvious why aren't they doing it allready?


on the other hand, prisons don't work and are very exspensive, so as a purely cost cutting excersise if nothing else i can see why some of Joe's measures would work.

i reckon some of these inmates would do better if put into the services, ie army, navy etc, obviously serious offenders would have to go to prison.

[(RIP) PLANK]

Just something to think about,
criminals are not a seperate, race, ethnicity or social class.
Crime is not something that happens to and gets done by 'other people'

It is in fact part of our flawed huan condition, and arguably crime is as much a product of the law as law is of crime.

I have a retired police inspector friend who has an unsusualy philosipic view of criminals: "there - but for the grace of god - go I"

If you were, through whatever circumstances - to find yourself on the wrong side of the law, and it happens every day to ordinary men and women who make silly mistakes, or act in the heat of the momen - how would you like to be treated?

or how would you like your son, daughter, brother, sister etc. treated?

[Peasgood]

Originally Posted by tezzer

well it would save the tax payer money to keep some of the scum bags, murderers are murderers, so put them together if they cant get on tough, if you let them out they will probably kill some innocent person anyway.

I take it you decided not to read the link.

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by PLANK

In English law they aren't - the punishment is being in prison you are not there to be punished

fair enough , a nuance , interpretation of words , fact of the matter is rehabilitation doesn't work well either .

Sadly the phrase a leopard never changes its spot is too often the correct one. Loss of liberty is what makes most of them give their head a shake. That is the punishment.

Inside they go into a "regime" those who prison is going to sort out will react to the regime which is in fact aimed at giving them some self pride and self discipline.

Definitely within the first part of their sentence they shold be taught accept what is put in front of them, like it or not. Standard toothbrush, a predetermined meal from the take it or leave it menu, standard toiletries, no sweets........it goes on.

If they behave without any governors reports and only in the second half of their sentence they then get to choose if they want to use their leccy toothbrush, they can choose which meal they want, they can choose which brand of soap and toothbrush they want etc etc.

They are in there because they cannot conform to societies rules. They need to be shown just what the benefit of being responsible can bring. That is the right to choose and determine your own existence.

I would not give them their own tvs, I would not give them playstations, I would not allow them coffee making facilities in their cells. If they are sentenced to 5 years they do at least 4 1/2 years. Fair play good behavior deserves some kind of recognition of achieving some kind of personal discipline and conforming to civilised standards.

Another area that needs reform is the education regime. Give them basic maths and english only whilst inside. Then they can watch countdown in their 1 hour a day tv viewing and read books the rest of the time.

If and only if they dont mess up they can be recommended for further education at colleges etc when theyre released. Not given priority whilst inside.

In no way does any of what I have said infringe their human rights if you accept they are lawfully detained. They are fed, sheltered and kept clean. They are given the opportunity for mental stimulation. They are rewarded for their compliance to that system. They are directed toward further self development upon release.

The leopards will return proving theyre a waste of space and the reformed will go onwards and upwards.

People whinge about people like Biggs having been banged up for too long. They are wrong, he was banged up for the correct amount of time. It was his contemporaries who werent in long enough!!!


I dont like having criminals running around free making life hard for the decent honest people of this country. Lock em up to segregate those who deserve to retain their liberty

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by PLANK

prisons don't work - fact.

Having just reread the thread lets clarify this point..................

Prisons dont work............correct.

caveat...............under the soppy systems we have at the moment............fact

[(RIP) PLANK]

Originally Posted by daved

fair enough , a nuance , interpretation of words , fact of the matter is rehabilitation doesn't work well either .

Sadly the phrase a leopard never changes its spot is too often the correct one. Loss of liberty is what makes most of them give their head a shake. That is the punishment.

Inside they go into a "regime" those who prison is going to sort out will react to the regime which is in fact aimed at giving them some self pride and self discipline.

Definitely within the first part of their sentence they shold be taught accept what is put in front of them, like it or not. Standard toothbrush, a predetermined meal from the take it or leave it menu, standard toiletries, no sweets........it goes on.

If they behave without any governors reports and only in the second half of their sentence they then get to choose if they want to use their leccy toothbrush, they can choose which meal they want, they can choose which brand of soap and toothbrush they want etc etc.

They are in there because they cannot conform to societies rules. They need to be shown just what the benefit of being responsible can bring. That is the right to choose and determine your own existence.

I would not give them their own tvs, I would not give them playstations, I would not allow them coffee making facilities in their cells. If they are sentenced to 5 years they do at least 4 1/2 years. Fair play good behavior deserves some kind of recognition of achieving some kind of personal discipline and conforming to civilised standards.

Another area that needs reform is the education regime. Give them basic maths and english only whilst inside. Then they can watch countdown in their 1 hour a day tv viewing and read books the rest of the time.

If and only if they dont mess up they can be recommended for further education at colleges etc when theyre released. Not given priority whilst inside.

In no way does any of what I have said infringe their human rights if you accept they are lawfully detained. They are fed, sheltered and kept clean. They are given the opportunity for mental stimulation. They are rewarded for their compliance to that system. They are directed toward further self development upon release.

The leopards will return proving theyre a waste of space and the reformed will go onwards and upwards.

People whinge about people like Biggs having been banged up for too long. They are wrong, he was banged up for the correct amount of time. It was his contemporaries who werent in long enough!!!


I dont like having criminals running around free making life hard for the decent honest people of this country. Lock em up to segregate those who deserve to retain their liberty

I agree, as i said, and you point out, prison does not work - fact. But it is all we have.

But your post does make several assumptions about criminals, i.e. basic maths and English, this assumes they are all educatinaly (or intelectualy) deficient). As i also said, crime and punishment is a complicated matter that has absorbed the time and intelectual capcities of great thinkers for thousands of years, and a few not so great ones like Sherrif Joe

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by PLANK

I have a retired police inspector friend who has an unsusualy philosipic view of criminals: "there - but for the grace of god - go I"

I know many criminals. I regularly have very civilised conversations in the middle of Tescos with them doesnt mean I trust them or believe they should have their liberty.

Your mates comment needs clarification.

Many cops would say there but for the grace because of the way things pan out, thats correct, not because of deliberate actions.

Originally Posted by PLANK

If you were, through whatever circumstances - to find yourself on the wrong side of the law, and it happens every day to ordinary men and women who make silly mistakes, or act in the heat of the momen - how would you like to be treated?

or how would you like your son, daughter, brother, sister etc. treated?

Its all on a sliding scale, thats why theres cautioning schemes and suspended sentences.

If you screw up to the degree youre going down, in this day and age, its unlikely youve simply cocked up. There will have been some awareness or comprehension of what was going on or the error was of such a magnitude , beyond what any reasonable person would have done, you should bite the bullet and take the punishment.

Its actually very difficult to get banged up. Ask those who like the current comfy system and dont want to be outside of it!!!

The old saying, if you cant do the time is completely appropriate.

[(RIP) PLANK]

Originally Posted by daved

I know many criminals. I regularly have very civilised conversations in the middle of Tescos with them doesnt mean I trust them or believe they should have their liberty.

Your mates comment needs clarification.

Many cops would say there but for the grace because of the way things pan out, thats correct, not because of deliberate actions.




Its all on a sliding scale, thats why theres cautioning schemes and suspended sentences.

If you screw up to the degree youre going down, in this day and age, its unlikely youve simply cocked up. There will have been some awareness or comprehension of what was going on or the error was of such a magnitude , beyond what any reasonable person would have done, you should bite the bullet and take the punishment.

Its actually very difficult to get banged up. Ask those who like the current comfy system and dont want to be outside of it!!!

The old saying, if you cant do the time is completely appropriate.

I agree with the old saying too!

I only used my mate's (Jim) quote to point out that all sorts of people fall foul of the law, and a brutal regime is not a good blanket policy, as there are many different ways to end up in trouble, and may different people who end up there, our present - more flexible - system is about as good as it gets.

Even with lots more cash to throw at prisons all you would get is room for more prisoners.

I think the only chance prison has of working as a reformative measure is during the first sentence. If you go back a second and a third time, you are
there to be 'warehoused' for the duration, not to be reformed, there is no point trying.

[briggie]

sex offenders castrated or steralised

thiefs have a hand removed on first offence , as per sharia law etc

murderers are incarcerated for life or given poison ( their choice )

bring back the stocks for antisocial criminals

im thinking of other punishments for other crimes at the mo ..... bear with me

[Deleted account DD]

My point that prisons dont work is entirely underpinned by the fact that they have evolved into a civil libertarian based hotel system. They are dirty smelly horrible places but apart from deprivation of liberty achieve little in the long term.

Originally Posted by PLANK

But your post does make several assumptions about criminals, i.e. basic maths and English, this assumes they are all educatinaly (or intelectualy) deficient). As i also said, crime and punishment is a complicated matter that has absorbed the time and intelectual capcities of great thinkers for thousands of years, and a few not so great ones like Sherrif Joe

No , no assumptions or presumptions whatsoever made.

The limited services are take it or leave and on the basis of desire or need.

"Intellectuals" should keep out of it. I suspect many of them havent seen the inside of a prison. There is far too much philosophising about the system and the rights of the incarcerated.

If sherrif Joes system isnt working fair enough. Nor is ours BUT his would cost less of my hard earned reluctantly handed over tax money which could then be used to pay for the new roof on the school down the road.

Sherrif Joes system every time for the mainstream criminal.

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by PLANK

I only used my mate's (Jim) quote to point out that all sorts of people fall foul of the law, and a brutal regime is not a good blanket policy, as there are many different ways to end up in trouble, and may different people who end up there, our present - more flexible - system is about as good as it gets.

Not one thing I have suggested constitutes a brutal regime. In fact life overall would probably be less brutal for many with more discipline.

Lets not get diverted by that anti Sherriff Joe material. Most Brit jails could match that record with ease.

[briggie]

Originally Posted by daved

Not one thing I have suggested constitutes a brutal regime. In fact life overall would probably be less brutal for many with more discipline.

Lets not get diverted by that anti Sherriff Joe material. Most Brit jails could match that record with ease.

bring back national service ?

as posted on here before i have been to prison so know its no deterent and have seen alsorts of people around me murderers and sex ofenders common myth other prisoners will atack them they wont no one wants to lose there priveledges home leaves working out for minimum wage etc
persnolly certain types of offender are suitable for one thing mine clearence work in afghnistan save brave young (to young to die) soldgiers but it wont happen uman rights etc.
i firmly believe by commiting a crime you forfit a lot of your rights but the prison service does have quite a few contracts which earn them money whilst chappy makes light boards for halfrauds or mop buckets for aldis ,they just refuse foi requests.
thing is that takes work of a person on the outside!

[(RIP) PLANK]

Originally Posted by daved

Not one thing I have suggested constitutes a brutal regime. In fact life overall would probably be less brutal for many with more discipline.

Lets not get diverted by that anti Sherriff Joe material. Most Brit jails could match that record with ease.

i wasn't suggesting you were advocating brutality, more that sherif joe's tatics end up there, these threads go to pot so easiy Sorry

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by jace

as posted on here before i have been to prison so know its no deterent and have seen alsorts of people around me murderers and sex ofenders common myth other prisoners will atack them they wont no one wants to lose there priveledges home leaves working out for minimum wage etc
persnolly certain types of offender are suitable for one thing mine clearence work in afghnistan save brave young (to young to die) soldgiers but it wont happen uman rights etc.
i firmly believe by commiting a crime you forfit a lot of your rights but the prison service does have quite a few contracts which earn them money whilst chappy makes light boards for halfrauds or mop buckets for aldis ,they just refuse foi requests.
thing is that takes work of a person on the outside!

well said