DVLA Bar Stewards...

[(RIP) PLANK]

Karl and DaveD you have it in one! New labour reperesneted a shift from legal rartional authority to charismatic authority. And in truth were just (initialy) an extension of the Conservative government they replaced. They used artificialy inflated house prices to bolster a failing economy until the economic cycle was complete and the property values had to stand up in the 'real world' not just on paper and it all went 'tits up'.

The real 'austerity' move we need here is to give people backa decent return on their savings and investments and to slash property prices - but obviously that is easier said than done and we area ll in for grsdualy shirnking property prices combined with massive inflation (in real terms) to close the gap 'relatively' unitl the averags couple on the average wage can once again afford the average house.

But i'm just a Social Scientist with 9 years of Uni and many years relavent experience in the field of Social Policy, so I know form experience most people would rather listen to the bloke down the pub

[Liam]

Originally Posted by daved

I think the budding revolutionaries need to chill and take a step back.

Please explain to me why the actions of the dvla on an offence (not a crime incidentally) warrant describing the UK as a police state ?

Sorry Dave,think it's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. I'm a million miles from being a revolutionary but I can't see how Police in the UK can behave the way they do now and people just sit back and let it happen. They are supposed to be there for the good of the people,right? So how does speed checks on motorways,fining people for being a few days or weeks out of road tax or MOT benefit society? A lot of the laws that the Police enforce are nothing to do with maintaining a law abiding society. Shouldn't they behave in a manner that keeps the public onside so when they need their cooperation it is there for them, not alienate the people who they are supposed to be protecting? I know it will take a lot for me to help our Police here over the way my son was treated after his car was stolen. Almost four months for it to be returned and numerous phone calls to the Superintendent. Allegedly it was being processed by forensics for evidence but funnily enough they missed the gloves and stilson which were in clear view on the back seat. Anyway,you wear the the uniform so it is reasonable,I suppose ,to accept that your view would be a very narrow one. As to taking a step back and chilling,I'm very chilled but no matter how chilled I am it does not change the facts that the UK ,because of the Governments actions and the actions of the Police over the last 30-40 years, is nothing close to being a Democracy and nor is likely to be any time soon. But you don't need me to tell you that,you live there,so you know only too well. Have a Happy and Peaceful Christmas and New Year

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by Liam

Sorry Dave,think it's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. I'm a million miles from being a revolutionary but I can't see how Police in the UK can behave the way they do now and people just sit back and let it happen. They are supposed to be there for the good of the people,right? So how does speed checks on motorways,fining people for being a few days or weeks out of road tax or MOT benefit society? A lot of the laws that the Police enforce are nothing to do with maintaining a law abiding society. Shouldn't they behave in a manner that keeps the public onside so when they need their cooperation it is there for them, not alienate the people who they are supposed to be protecting? I know it will take a lot for me to help our Police here over the way my son was treated after his car was stolen. Almost four months for it to be returned and numerous phone calls to the Superintendent. Allegedly it was being processed by forensics for evidence but funnily enough they missed the gloves and stilson which were in clear view on the back seat. Anyway,you wear the the uniform so it is reasonable,I suppose ,to accept that your view would be a very narrow one. As to taking a step back and chilling,I'm very chilled but no matter how chilled I am it does not change the facts that the UK ,because of the Governments actions and the actions of the Police over the last 30-40 years, is nothing close to being a Democracy and nor is likely to be any time soon. But you don't need me to tell you that,you live there,so you know only too well. Have a Happy and Peaceful Christmas and New Year

No problems but Im afraid youre coming at this from exactly the wrong aproach. The very fact Im in the system (dont even own a uniform anymore!!) actually gives me a much wider view. Having studied politics (and passed the exam .... just) and been a staff rep (we're not allowed unions as such) for quite some time I definitely have a grip on the bigger view.

The rule of law is very simple. You know the boundaries and you play within them. Your view is clearly based on perception (and incidentally you havent commented on the superb example set by the bmw vid of how people get it badly wrong) and the unfortunate incident you have been involved in. I have genuine sympathy at your frustration and It goes against the grain but I received such bad service from a call taker (not cop) in a neighbouring area that led to a lady getting bitten by a mastiff I officially complained. I suggest anyone who gets treat as badly does so too.

I simply dont have time at the mo to answer (but could if you want) all the points you raise but one I will make re fining people for being out of date on tax, mot etc.

Did you know that the vast majority , and I mean most , vehicles that are out on one have a problem with it or are hiding something. ie they cant tax because they have no mot or they have no mot because the car is an mot fail when its finally if ever presented.

Now that is fact. If you dont want those people dealing with write to your mp but Im not sure theyd get away with pushing it

Further fact is the SORN etc makes it easier to deal with them. Been there and got a sack of T shirts.

Unfortuantely the rules are applied without discretion (see my earlier comment on them being pedantic) so theres no leeway for "decent" folk who drop a bollock.

That is a failing but it errs on the side of the law abiding

cheers

[lacroupade]

Originally Posted by daved

I simply dont have time at the mo to answer (but could if you want) all the points you raise but one I will make re fining people for being out of date on tax, mot etc.

Did you know that the vast majority , and I mean most , vehicles that are out on one have a problem with it or are hiding something. ie they cant tax because they have no mot or they have no mot because the car is an mot fail when its finally if ever presented.

Now that is fact. If you dont want those people dealing with write to your mp but Im not sure theyd get away with pushing it

Further fact is the SORN etc makes it easier to deal with them. Been there and got a sack of T shirts.

Unfortuantely the rules are applied without discretion (see my earlier comment on them being pedantic) so theres no leeway for "decent" folk who drop a bollock.

That is a failing but it errs on the side of the law abiding

cheers

I love a good shindig LOL!

But Dave, you hit the nail on the head there. Firstly you can't equitably go against the natural justice of "innocent til proven guilty"....while I recognise the issues you raise, its the wrong way to tackle them. The courts might as well start sending me a summons (without any evidence on their part) for using red diesel, or for breaking any law or regulation you like, on the basis that (i) I might have done something like that, and (ii) its somehow my responsibility to prove that I didn't do it, even though no actual offence even bloody well ocurred!

I think what people like Liam are rightly pointing out is the way in which the police force is increasingly being used as a political tool (or at least thats the perception). The student riots are a case in point (unless there was advance intelligence) and I know it all turned to sh1te but the leftys would argue that was possibly due to the weight or manner of policing (I am totally with the scuffers on this one by the way!).

Fining someone who's car is parked up in a bloody field for six months is as bad as, or worse, than speed cameras for the damage it does, even though there is no connection with the police. I mean its an offence not to display a tax disc on a public isn't it, but why should I need to inform the gestapo that I'm not driving my car and its off the highway? I mean the roads are full of CCTV and ANPR cameras apparently, or we could get radical and put more bobbies back on the beat LOL.

I just resent the default assumption, without evidence, that I'm breaking the law!!

Happy Crimbo!

[Deleted account DD]

Short reply from phone !!!

No, nothing wrong with a good debate. If we were all agreeing it would mean some one wasn't thinking

Thing is Paul, you are guilty. Lol

The offence is an absolute and they've been around for years. You do not have to automatically accept the ticket anyway, there's no presumption of guilt, its effectively an accusation of guilt. Challenge the ticket and you enter further due process. Its exactly the same as going to court to enter a plea only quicker and easier for everyone including the accused.

Accepting and paying is a guilty plea, challenging is a not guilty. Simples

They pursued me a while back for a car I scrapped. They also chased me for one I'd sold. Challenged and won easily on both counts.

[Deleted account DD]

Anpr is superb. It can detect uninsured untaxed or anything else realted to a vrm that can be justified. It is only as good as the data programed in and the conditions under which thatdata can be held are very stringent. They have to be justified iaw the NIM and data protection to name just 2. They are also regulalry and harshly weeded.

The sorn bussiness is one area that provides superb data for them. I know errors do occur but trust me errors are fewer and more quickly resolved than previously under "lthe good old system"

It is an area where the innocent have significantly less to fear than they used to and an awful lot to be thankful for.

Cctv is far from the silver bullet its seen as and speed cameras are shite the way they've been used in this country.

One thing that really cracks me up in debates like this is the fact most of potential revolutionaries talk about changing things. Let's all have arevolution and then set up................errrrrrrr..........what? Dunno butlets have some buzzwords and pr. lmao

What they don't realise is that they would then find themselves on the opp side of the fence with other groups saying "they're crap, let's change them and the system"

But we've already seen that, new labour it was called and as a result of their activities I've just been reading an email describing a process that's going to decide if I still have a job. Oh happy days.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by daved

Anpr is superb. It can detect uninsured untaxed or anything else realted to a vrm that can be justified. It is only as good as the data programed in and the conditions under which thatdata can be held are very stringent. They have to be justified iaw the NIM and data protection to name just 2. They are also regulalry and harshly weeded.

The sorn bussiness is one area that provides superb data for them. I know errors do occur but trust me errors are fewer and more quickly resolved than previously under "lthe good old system"

It is an area where the innocent have significantly less to fear than they used to and an awful lot to be thankful for.

Cctv is far from the silver bullet its seen as and speed cameras are shite the way they've been used in this country.

One thing that really cracks me up in debates like this is the fact most of potential revolutionaries talk about changing things. Let's all have arevolution and then set up................errrrrrrr..........what? Dunno butlets have some buzzwords and pr. lmao

What they don't realise is that they would then find themselves on the opp side of the fence with other groups saying "they're crap, let's change them and the system"

But we've already seen that, new labour it was called and as a result of their activities I've just been reading an email describing a process that's going to decide if I still have a job. Oh happy days.

As I said,I'm not even close to being or wanting to be a revolutionary, it is usually people with a vested interest in the status quo who vociferously defend it. If a system is a good one, it doesn't need defending as people can see that it works. However ,that doesn't mean it shouldn't be analysed or criticised as that is how things generally improve. It's probably fair to say that most people would like to live in peace and harmony for most of their lives but that is not the way society currently is , so the system probably needs to be reviewed regularly. I'm sure ,Dave, that in the course of your work you regularly see situations where peoples perception of an event is skewed,either because of their social status,neighbourhood,life experience etc; so the fact that some of what you say may very well be 100% factual, if peoples perception is otherwise, then that becomes reality for them, regardless of the actual facts. Therefore, if Paul believes that the DVLA system is flawed,and other people ,yourself included, also had dubious fines imposed on occasion, then that becomes the reality "the DVLA system is flawed". Acknowledging that the system is flawed does not repair the flaw and only aggravates people further, as it then shows the stupidity of a system that is not fit for purpose but is kept in use.

[(RIP) PLANK]

It's a strange truth that comunism as peoposed by Marx & Engles has never realy been tried., just a lennonist interpretation and it doesn't work!

Another strnage truth, real democracy exists no where on earth, the "democracy" we have in britain is a 'legal rational' democracy that also doesn't work.

We have a fairly young system of government - think of how long we lived in a true monarchy by comparison - and toadya we have an odd mix of several systems -it's time for a change!

In order to hasten the rate of the present system loosing it's legitemacy the most effective - non voiolent - approach is to simply abstain from voting.

If voting can change anyhting, it ill only be change withing the current political sytem - what we need is a new one!

So for a real revloution, simply do nothing! don't get involved with the present political set up, either to support it or to try and bring it down - simply ignore it and the next stage of our mutual governance will come along that little bit quicker!

Thats me off my soap box now

[Deleted account DD]

One thing you will never have seen me post is that the system is perfect, far from it

I also hope you do not count me as desiring to maintain the status quo. I am actually regarded as quite progressive and open to change what I do want is whats best for me but i must also be able to sleep at night with a reasonably clear conscience. I think its fair to say most decent people are the same. Obviously many claim submitting politicians aren't but hey as i said the system aint perfect.

As far as perception goes, perception certainly proves the basis for opinion but not that often for evidence. We all need rules to live by, whether you aproach the boundaries or breach them or are even aware of them you generally do and should live within them in any society or group.

Decent folk even set their own rules when there's nothing to guide them. However common sense and common decency and instinct for whats right isn't actually that common these days.

Plus the last govt set a record for volume of new legislation passed. That has brought statute further and further towards everyone making things less flexible and no room for discretion. I don't like that but I have to live with it. But it certainly isnt a police state, more a nannified existence because many of the rules though adhered to are rarely enforced because its so impractical.

That means when people like paul commit an offence they're automatically hit. Enhanced automated admin also plays a part in that.

So thats where we are and some of the moves are superb others crap. The sorn admin is something any decent person doing "the right thing" has nothing at all to worry about and the benefits of it save YOU ALL money and do what everyone moans about frees cops up for real police work.

If you fancy living in a lawless society i understand Zimbabwe and Nicargua has cheap housing. If you want to see the effect of poor social administration and a slack grip allowing lawlessnes have a trip to Belize city , the current murder capital of the Caribbean. They had independence granted or revolution over the past few decades which has allowed rules to be rebuilt.

Even look at Iraq. Common feedback from many iraqis is "at least the water and electric worked with Saddam" you cant pleae all the peole all of the time. Pure democracy is inherently inefficient.

I put it to you, Paul admits his cock up and pays up. The system youre all moaning about also identifies other vehicles in the same situation . They go onto the Police system and are dealt with. A significant drugs haul is seized AND asset seizure after conviction solely as a result of the car being stopped for no tax. It has happened.

Sadly the system doesnt have the capacity to speak to all the pauls to warn them nicely but it does allow legitimate targeting of wrongdoers
Does it work? unless youre a junkie, of course it does.

If thats not a decent result please explain

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by PLANK

It's a strange truth that comunism as peoposed by Marx & Engles has never realy been tried., just a lennonist interpretation and it doesn't work!

Another strnage truth, real democracy exists no where on earth, the "democracy" we have in britain is a 'legal rational' democracy that also doesn't work.

We have a fairly young system of government - think of how long we lived in a true monarchy by comparison - and toadya we have an odd mix of several systems -it's time for a change!

In order to hasten the rate of the present system loosing it's legitemacy the most effective - non voiolent - approach is to simply abstain from voting.

If voting can change anyhting, it ill only be change withing the current political sytem - what we need is a new one!

So for a real revloution, simply do nothing! don't get involved with the present political set up, either to support it or to try and bring it down - simply ignore it and the next stage of our mutual governance will come along that little bit quicker!

Thats me off my soap box now

Ive almost repeated a couple of points, you posted whilst I was composing

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by Liam

it is usually people with a vested interest in the status quo who vociferously defend it. If a system is a good one, it doesn't need defending as people can see that it works.

actually i'll change my post here......


please explain the difference between explanation and defence of a system

[Liam]

Originally Posted by daved

actually i'll change my post here......


please explain the difference between explanation and defence of a system

Dave,you are taking my posts too personally,it is usually the Governments and Police forces etc.who vociferously defend their tactics. Keeps them in a job,you see.

[lacroupade]

Originally Posted by daved

I put it to you, Paul admits his cock up and pays up. The system youre all moaning about also identifies other vehicles in the same situation . They go onto the Police system and are dealt with. A significant drugs haul is seized AND asset seizure after conviction solely as a result of the car being stopped for no tax. It has happened.

Sadly the system doesnt have the capacity to speak to all the pauls to warn them nicely but it does allow legitimate targeting of wrongdoers
Does it work? unless youre a junkie, of course it does.

If thats not a decent result please explain

But theres a massive flaw right there? The fact the drug dealer didn't tax his car, allied to the presence of ANPR, was what got him stopped, not the fact that the naughty boy didn't SORN it??? Just as I'd deem it a fair cop if I drove on the road in the same state. But given that I parked it up in a field why the f*ck should I be required to report to the state that I've done so? Next thing I'll be required to report when I'm taking a dump! LOL

I believe it to be nothing more than another revenue generation/Big Brother scheme frankly and it SUCKS. I cannot see how SORN benefits anyone positively....you always used to be able to 'de-tax' your car or park it offroad untaxed, except now it seems we are required as citizens to formally positively report to the state that we are obeying a particular law....thin edge of the bloody wedge if you ask me!!!

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by Liam

Dave,you are taking my posts too personally,

I assure you not the case in fact i'm more likely to turn up on your front door step dressed like a banana than take them personally............whats your address ?

[Deleted account DD]

Originally Posted by lacroupade

But theres a massive flaw right there? The fact the drug dealer didn't tax his car, allied to the presence of ANPR, was what got him stopped, not the fact that the naughty boy didn't SORN it??? Just as I'd deem it a fair cop if I drove on the road in the same state. But given that I parked it up in a field why the f*ck should I be required to report to the state that I've done so? Next thing I'll be required to report when I'm taking a dump! LOL

A serial very serious offender who had diasapeared from the scene was locked up (after a brief pursuit) when I was involved in anpr because................................

the dozy twat sorn'd his car presumably to avoid paying up and then drove past the team so the machine pinged him up

It works all ways. Honestly I have never stopped being amazed at the ingenuity and the stupidity in equal measures, of the human race.

Anyhow its xmas and I can hear a 1/2 price bottle of Tesco fizz calling my name

Enough of politics and big brother

Happy xmas one and all