Ebay Rant.

03-03-2009, 11:40

What is it with Ebay and Paypal ?

If you post an item in normal post you can't prove buyer had it so the sneaky B*stards complain to paypay and paypal refunds it automatically.

So you make recorded delivery compulsary and then people complain to ebay about your postal charges being to high.

Grrrrrrrr

zippy656 · 03-03-2009, 11:44

yep, all good fun.

no one is happy either way

lacroupade · 03-03-2009, 11:46

I know its a no-win situation in some ways Darwin, but seeing the number of sellers (that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole) trying to say "delivery not my problem" (despite the fact that it plainly is), I have to say I understand and prefer to pay for 'signed for' delivery personally.

That might inflate the cost of what you're selling a bit, but if you put a standard statement in your auctions that its to protect both parties, and you are only charging it at cost plus a bit, 99.9% of buyers should be OK with it I think you'll find.

Sadly the days of eBay being a largely trustworthy community of amateurs is long since gone.....

Liam · 03-03-2009, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darwin

What is it with Ebay and Paypal ?

If you post an item in normal post you can't prove buyer had it so the sneaky B*stards complain to paypay and paypal refunds it automatically.

So you make recorded delivery compulsary and then people complain to ebay about your postal charges being to high.

Grrrrrrrr

Don't know about Royal Mail but in Ireland we can get a proof of postage receipt for items posted standard mail. Primarily used by parents/students for college applications as they need to be posted by a particular date and the colleges accept these receipts as proof of posting by closing date.Perhaps it is worth asking at the Post Office next time?

Terranosaurus · 03-03-2009, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by pajo

Don't know about Royal Mail but in Ireland we can get a proof of postage receipt for items posted standard mail. Primarily used by parents/students for college applications as they need to be posted by a particular date and the colleges accept these receipts as proof of posting by closing date.Perhaps it is worth asking at the Post Office next time?

Unfortunately ebay/paypal won't accept that it has to be a digitally tracked item so they can plug a number into a website and see the status of the delivery.

lacroupade · 03-03-2009, 12:03

I think the problem is that proof of posting has limited use (you can do it here as well); its usually for official stuff like Pajo suggests, e.g. "I posted a cheque for my tax disc guv - honest!"...the contractual onus (and technically when you buy/sell on eBay it IS a legal contract whatever people would like to think) on a seller is to ensure that the buyer gets delivery of whatever they bought...and for that you need proof of delivery unfortunately.

On the other side of the coin, this protects you as a buyer from unscrupulous sellers...

lacroupade · 03-03-2009, 12:06

Terr I don't think that capability applies to Royal Mail standard recorded deliveryitems - parcels yes but not small packets sent at lowest costs with just 'signed for' option requested, its not commercially viable at that level...the only time stuff gets tracked in detail like that is when you see the bloke at the door with his little gadget to record his every move, and often get your signature on as well...trust me, logistics is my speciality this week.

tezzer · 03-03-2009, 12:07

on our local radio, a guy came on and complained that paypal had taken £320.00 from his account because the buyer said he never recieved a laptop he won, they never tried to contact the seller first to see if he had proof of postage. that bit with paypal where it states you are protected upto £500.00, well thats how they cover you. i had similar recently, all i done when the guy complained to me, was to remove my card details.

tezzer

lacroupade · 03-03-2009, 12:48

Hi Tezzer...I think that story probably lost a bit of detail to make it sound more scandalous. In Paypals favour, they don't debit sale proceeds without contacting the seller first for their side of the story - thats what the dispute process is about. And proof of posting means only that, that it got shipped - not that it arrived at the other end. The seller has to prove it got delivered, i.e. 'signed for' delivery.

Like I said, the law of contract (common law, not just eBay) makes it the sellers responsibility, where mail is the selected method, to ensure that the item arrives....if they can't then they remain liable to deliver or provide a refund. Impossible to deliver again if you've sold a one-off, so refund is the only other option....delete your cards but Paypal then dumps you!

Frankly it doesn't cost that much - and what sort of idiot ships a £320 laptop without covering his backside in this way?

What I will admit is that eBay is CRAP at making this clear to people.....doesn't matter whether you are a private or business seller the law of contract is the same....if theres been offer (to sell) and acceptance (to buy at that price and on the Ts and Cs given, provided they don't override contract law, e.g. you can't contract out of responsibility for delivery) then in law a sales contract exists. On the other side of the coin, if a seller got too low a price and refused to ship, the buyer could very easily sue for completion if they wished - £25 in Small Claims Court.

So whenever you see a seller saying things like "I'll provide PoP so the buyer can make a claim if the item is lost" is talking rubbish. The seller is responsible for delivery, and if he can't prove it and the seller refutes it, then the seller is stuffed in law, thats the way it is.

tezzer · 03-03-2009, 13:08

hi lacroupade, thanks for your reply, what basicly happened a guy sold a laptop on ebay, several weeks later the buyer claimed he had not recieved the item, now this program is where they have experts (solicitors) on air to help with these sort of problems, i dont know what was said off air, but it got to the stage were the presenter had to stop the discussion because of possible legal procedings, so i assume that he had some sort of case or maybe he had proof of postage, i dont know, but the presenter said he would update at a later date, it could take months or longer i suppose.

tezzer

lacroupade · 03-03-2009, 13:35

That might have a different complication cos I think from memory you have report non-delivery within a fairly short time on eBay don't you, after which Paypal doesn't help either way. I've used it 2-3 times when I've been sold obvious fakes for example - usually the threat of bad feedback etc.. makes the seller cave in pretty quickly.

03-03-2009, 11:40	#1
Darwin Guest Posts: n/a	Ebay Rant. What is it with Ebay and Paypal ? If you post an item in normal post you can't prove buyer had it so the sneaky B*stards complain to paypay and paypal refunds it automatically. So you make recorded delivery compulsary and then people complain to ebay about your postal charges being to high. Grrrrrrrr

03-03-2009, 11:44	#2
zippy656 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Devizes Wiltshire Vehicle: Nissan Note Ntec 1.5 Posts: 14,137	yep, all good fun. no one is happy either way

03-03-2009, 11:46	#3
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	I know its a no-win situation in some ways Darwin, but seeing the number of sellers (that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole) trying to say "delivery not my problem" (despite the fact that it plainly is), I have to say I understand and prefer to pay for 'signed for' delivery personally. That might inflate the cost of what you're selling a bit, but if you put a standard statement in your auctions that its to protect both parties, and you are only charging it at cost plus a bit, 99.9% of buyers should be OK with it I think you'll find. Sadly the days of eBay being a largely trustworthy community of amateurs is long since gone.....

03-03-2009, 12:03	#6
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	I think the problem is that proof of posting has limited use (you can do it here as well); its usually for official stuff like Pajo suggests, e.g. "I posted a cheque for my tax disc guv - honest!"...the contractual onus (and technically when you buy/sell on eBay it IS a legal contract whatever people would like to think) on a seller is to ensure that the buyer gets delivery of whatever they bought...and for that you need proof of delivery unfortunately. On the other side of the coin, this protects you as a buyer from unscrupulous sellers...

03-03-2009, 12:06	#7
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	Terr I don't think that capability applies to Royal Mail standard recorded deliveryitems - parcels yes but not small packets sent at lowest costs with just 'signed for' option requested, its not commercially viable at that level...the only time stuff gets tracked in detail like that is when you see the bloke at the door with his little gadget to record his every move, and often get your signature on as well...trust me, logistics is my speciality this week.

03-03-2009, 12:07	#8
tezzer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: basildon essex Vehicle: transit camper van 1987 Posts: 2,829	on our local radio, a guy came on and complained that paypal had taken £320.00 from his account because the buyer said he never recieved a laptop he won, they never tried to contact the seller first to see if he had proof of postage. that bit with paypal where it states you are protected upto £500.00, well thats how they cover you. i had similar recently, all i done when the guy complained to me, was to remove my card details. tezzer

03-03-2009, 12:48	#9
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	Hi Tezzer...I think that story probably lost a bit of detail to make it sound more scandalous. In Paypals favour, they don't debit sale proceeds without contacting the seller first for their side of the story - thats what the dispute process is about. And proof of posting means only that, that it got shipped - not that it arrived at the other end. The seller has to prove it got delivered, i.e. 'signed for' delivery. Like I said, the law of contract (common law, not just eBay) makes it the sellers responsibility, where mail is the selected method, to ensure that the item arrives....if they can't then they remain liable to deliver or provide a refund. Impossible to deliver again if you've sold a one-off, so refund is the only other option....delete your cards but Paypal then dumps you! Frankly it doesn't cost that much - and what sort of idiot ships a £320 laptop without covering his backside in this way? What I will admit is that eBay is CRAP at making this clear to people.....doesn't matter whether you are a private or business seller the law of contract is the same....if theres been offer (to sell) and acceptance (to buy at that price and on the Ts and Cs given, provided they don't override contract law, e.g. you can't contract out of responsibility for delivery) then in law a sales contract exists. On the other side of the coin, if a seller got too low a price and refused to ship, the buyer could very easily sue for completion if they wished - £25 in Small Claims Court. So whenever you see a seller saying things like "I'll provide PoP so the buyer can make a claim if the item is lost" is talking rubbish. The seller is responsible for delivery, and if he can't prove it and the seller refutes it, then the seller is stuffed in law, thats the way it is.

03-03-2009, 13:08	#10
tezzer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: basildon essex Vehicle: transit camper van 1987 Posts: 2,829	hi lacroupade, thanks for your reply, what basicly happened a guy sold a laptop on ebay, several weeks later the buyer claimed he had not recieved the item, now this program is where they have experts (solicitors) on air to help with these sort of problems, i dont know what was said off air, but it got to the stage were the presenter had to stop the discussion because of possible legal procedings, so i assume that he had some sort of case or maybe he had proof of postage, i dont know, but the presenter said he would update at a later date, it could take months or longer i suppose. tezzer

03-03-2009, 13:35	#11
lacroupade Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: All hail to the Glove of Love... Posts: 9,212	That might have a different complication cos I think from memory you have report non-delivery within a fairly short time on eBay don't you, after which Paypal doesn't help either way. I've used it 2-3 times when I've been sold obvious fakes for example - usually the threat of bad feedback etc.. makes the seller cave in pretty quickly.