View Full Version : Gross Weight Question
Andy-Blackpool
10-01-2010, 17:25
Just wondering whats the gross weight of a 96 swb t2? Just wondering as I will be towing a caravan with it and as I passed my test after 97 I cannot go over a gross weight of 3500kg.
zippy656
10-01-2010, 18:03
http://www.whattowcar.com/
look here bud.
i know i SHOULD know it, but i cant find it at the mo..
will dig a bit more laters..
if you know the caravan youve got or looking at..
fill it in and youll get an answer
Zippy
lacroupade
10-01-2010, 18:03
Search is your friend....
http://www.nissan4x4ownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1418&highlight=towing+weights
my LWB is 1950Kg as per our local weigh bridge. If yours is anywhere near that weight then you can pull nearly any single axle caravan, though twins might be a problem.
Edited to add that you are limited to a gross train weight of 3500Kg, though this area is still very grey and some police may go with the braked limit which is much lower (cant remember it).
Andy-Blackpool
10-01-2010, 18:14
The caravan I am looking at is a twin axle with a plated gross weight of 1500kg so if your lwb is just under 2 ton mine will obviously be less but even at 2 ton I would be ok as it just makes 3500kg
The caravan I am looking at is a twin axle with a plated gross weight of 1500kg so if your lwb is just under 2 ton mine will obviously be less but even at 2 ton I would be ok as it just makes 3500kg
Don't quote me on this, but I'm in the exact same position and when I looked into it you also have to make sure the weight of the towed weight is not more than 80% of the towing vehicle weight, so towing a weight of 1500kgs with a lwb t2 weighing 2000kgs is fine because thats only 75% of the vehicle weight, but the lighter the swb is, the closer you're going to be going towards that 80% figure. For example, if the swb weighs 1730kgs (one figure I've seen) then a 1500kgs caravan would be 86.7% of that tow vehicle weight and wouldn't be legal. I'd get this checked out just incase I'm right!
walshie
(RIP) PLANK
10-01-2010, 20:43
dont forget if you are looking at gross vehicle weight, this means with everyhting in it!
So when you are loaded up for a holiday with fuel passenges luggage etc the gross weight of your T2 will be consdierably higher!
an average peson weighs in at 70 kilos so 4 people = 280K plus fuel etc.
so you could easily add half a tonne to your gross weight, before you even think about the caravan!
so load it all up and head for a weigh bridge!
i know nothing about your driving licence or the rules though
but as far as i know all the 80% and 85% ruls are guidance only they are not the law! as for the ratio of weight between towing vehicle and caravan LAW I dont beleive there is one
zippy656
10-01-2010, 20:48
very true only a guide line. 85%..
Gross vehicle weight of Terrano plus MAM (max authorised mass) of caravan it will mean you will above 3500kg. My Terrano has a GVW of 27000 kg and my 4 berth caravan has a MAM of 1425 = 4125kg. I think you will find it all done on the gross weights,my son (22) cant drive my terrano with my van on the back as he will be over the 3500 kg limit but if he puts it behind his ford c max hes ok. ie c max GVW 1925 + van 1425 = 3350kgs.
Deleted account DD
10-01-2010, 21:03
but as far as i know all the 80% and 85% ruls are guidance only they are not the law! as for the ratio of weight between towing vehicle and caravan LAW I dont beleive there is one
bang on , theyre the good practice guidelines. I cant recall what top end tow rating is on the TII but 2.5 tonnes rings a bell so you can lawfully tow up to that (providing your licence covers it)
If you think about it you see various 4 x 4s towing some hefty loads for bussiness. I'm thinking mini diggers, "twin berth" horse boxes and building equipment. If they stuck to 80% they wouldnt get much in but up to the 3.5tonnes as it is on mine, you can crack on with your bussiness.
I do think the 85% is a good rule of thumb because the dog should wag the tail , but its nice to know youve got a safe and lawful margin for those extras if your maths is wrong.
MudLifeCrisis
10-01-2010, 22:11
From this months caravan club magazine.
A person who first passed their test on or after 1 January 1997 is restricted to a combined Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of 3500kg – ie the MAM of the caravan plus the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW). Also the trailer MAM
must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (the 85% ratio remains strongly recommended, unless the vehicle manufacturer’s towing limit is lower, of course).
If this MAM is to be exceeded, an E test pass is required. A list of B+E test driving instructors can be found in the ‘Practical advice’ section on the club’ website (caravanclub.co.uk).
The Driving Instructors’ Association also has a list of qualified driving instructors who can tutor those wishing to take the B+E driving test – see driving.org or call 0845 345 5151.
The cost of taking the test is currently £115 (weekdays) or £141 (weekday
evenings and weekends).
Note: Individuals concerned that they cannot tow a caravan because they have not passed the B+E driving test may not have cause to worry.
Most ‘ordinary’ cars – eg Ford Mondeo, Vauxhall Vectra/Signum and VW Passat turbodiesels – towing 85% of their respective kerbweights, will be well within 3500kg MAM.
In other words, the majority of caravanners who passed their test on or after 1 January 1997 will not need to take the B+E test unless they choose to tow with a heavy 4x4 or van.
If in doubt, contact the Club’s Technical/Information department, where a member of staff will be pleased to offer specific advice.
Members may wish to know that consultation on the ‘implementation of the Third Driving Licence Directive’ into UK law is now ongoing. While this
will not affect existing licences, proposals include an option to introduce an intermediate level of towing qualification (between ‘B’ and ‘B+E’) to allow drivers who undergo specified training to tow slightly heavier combination (4250kg).
Anyone wanting more details on this (or wanting to contribute a view to the consultation) should look on the Department for Transport website at dft.gov.uk under ‘Consultations’
and ‘Open consultations’. The Club will be submitting a response on behalf of members before the deadline of 5 February and quote your membership number
JENNY NORTON
Information Department, The Caravan Club,
East Grinstead House, East Grinstead, West
Sussex RH19 1UA
I think you will have to take the test
Brian
Thomas-the-Terrano2
10-01-2010, 23:26
theres more..
for a group b gvw 3500 can tow 750 kg ie tain 4250
BUT if trailer > 750 then combi max is 3500
AND its always gross of tug and trailer in calculations.
SO looks like you might well ok will need the +E but
worth having as means can tow at gross trailer weight
of tug then, usually a t2 is 2800kg for trailer and 3500
for a troll.
MudLifeCrisis
10-01-2010, 23:39
It's rubbish isn't it. Cars have a towing limit , that should be it.
More nanny state.
Thomas-the-Terrano2
10-01-2010, 23:53
hey dont get me started on limits,
dvla put me on a medical licence at one point limit group b, lost my c1, my bus
my livelyhood.
but kept b+e so tell me whats safer a 7.5 tonne wagon or a 3.5t b and 3.5t e.
my c1 has been restored now kindly, presume as had on grandfather rights
before illness but kissed goodbye to my hard earned and paid for class 1 bus
ticket. ironically though think i can drive a vintage bus subject to limit of 8
passengers not for higher/reward.
Thomas-the-Terrano2
11-01-2010, 00:00
Gross vehicle weight of Terrano plus MAM (max authorised mass) of caravan it will mean you will above 3500kg. My Terrano has a GVW of 27000 kg and my 4 berth caravan has a MAM of 1425 = 4125kg. I think you will find it all done on the gross weights,my son (22) cant drive my terrano with my van on the back as he will be over the 3500 kg limit but if he puts it behind his ford c max hes ok. ie c max GVW 1925 + van 1425 = 3350kgs.
now that shows crassness of it the t2 will be a better anchor to the van atleast
based on kerb or gross weight you would imagine.
related issue is tug really pulling full weight of van as it is carrying the nose weight.
might not sound much but could be as much as 75-100-140 kg. be interesting
applying that to some of the near the line outfits...
oh and some 4x4s that could virtually carry the caravan or a great chunk if there
was a way to transfer the weight. might help group b only licences. wonder how
those fifth wheel vans go on as they have some serious noseweights maybe upto
a tonne.
And there is more...... once you reach 70 years of age your towing weight is restricted... bri
now that shows crassness of it the t2 will be a better anchor to the van atleast
based on kerb or gross weight you would imagine.
related issue is tug really pulling full weight of van as it is carrying the nose weight.
might not sound much but could be as much as 75-100-140 kg. be interesting
applying that to some of the near the line outfits...
oh and some 4x4s that could virtually carry the caravan or a great chunk if there
was a way to transfer the weight. might help group b only licences. wonder how
those fifth wheel vans go on as they have some serious noseweights maybe upto
a tonne.
As we understand it the laws for 5vers (fifth wheel) are the same. But we see many that don't seem to take the law into account and get away with it. Same as we do with trailer caravans. With a fifth wheel you can tow so long as you have the correct cat on your licence (i.e. can pull a trailer) and if you can drive up to 7.5 tons then your train weight can be as high as 12 ton with a max length of 60 ft (in n round figures)
Fact is mostly Plod doesn’t know the law on trailers (they may think they do though). One plod tried to take me off the road once because I had a trailer with electric brakes and because it had no sliding hitch, he tried to do me for having an overweight unbaked trailer :doh
He was going to GV9 it and called for inspection.
We stated that the trailer had a legal braking system and that it was fully working.
Furthermore if they GV9'd me incorrectly and irresponsibly they would be liable for losses, costs etc. So they elected (wisely) not to and gave me a ticket instead
It never went to court ..... We never even produced an engineer’s inspection we just sent in copies of the relevant law concerning trailer brakes :D
VOSA is a little more dangerous but not much. If you have a 4x4 and it doesn’t have a designed restricted towing weight you can pretty well do what you like because there is a loophole somewhere you just have to find it and crawl through it.
Twice noe I have managed to be allowed to continue when threatened with a GV9 because I have just politely but firmly pointed out the error of the plods ways and suggested that they do not need to be wrong because if they are then.................:)
Being sensible and looking like you know what you are doing goes a long way to solving side of the road stops
As for transferring the nose weight of the caravan as vehicle payload. This doesn't work..........It has been tried and it was decided that the regs where designed to take this into account. Indeed you will find that newer vehicles often quote allowed hitch weight as well as gross trailer weight. Another thing that needs to be taken into account is that the regs are mostly designed around max laden weight of the trailer and not, as many think, the curb weight.
80% is a good rule but can be chucked outa the window if you know what you are about. Where 4x4's are concerned for the average driver we are more cautious about the wheelbase of the tug as most can pull weight quite safely. However when you are at the wheel of a shortie and the trailer decides to wag its tail it can be very hard work to get it back in a hurry if at all. Light modern caravans with central axles and hardly any nose weight are more prone to doing there own thing and many folk don't bother to load properly or do things like check hitch height when laden, check tire pressures and condition etc.
As for brakes :eek: A lot of Tin Tent Pullers are completely oblivious to their trailer brakes. We see everything from non existant (literally! the owner had removed all working parts in the drums because they where " making a 'orible noise" :eek::eek:) to incorectly adjusted to the point where they would lock at any speed below 40mph :doh
More caravan accidents are caused by these points than anything else. So much so that there is talk of an MOT for Caravans.
While this would be a pain for the more sensible of us it is a good thing for many:D
One final word that many overlook is EXAMINE your insurance pol. Make sure you have adequate cover. You would be supprised at the number of folk that think they have but havn't
Thomas-the-Terrano2
11-01-2010, 22:43
think vatco you'll find limit on a 7.5 tonne licence presume you mean c1 is 8250 with
a +e entitlement as i recall a c1 can tow upto 750 kg so 8250 and a c1+e whilst still
8250 means truck can be less and more trailer.
its possible to take a further test that takes gtw to 12000kg. aimed at 7.5t trucks
pulling a matching trailer. not many of these outfits on road. tbh most ive seen
are from mainland europe.
suspect there are a lot of say 7.5t tippers tugging mini diggers incorrectly without
the enhanced c1+e ticket.
oh and for good measure a c1's 'e' differs in size from a d1(minibus)'s 'e' just like
it does for c(big truck/lgv/former class2 hgv) and d(bus).
Deleted account DD
11-01-2010, 23:06
its possible to take a further test that takes gtw to 12000kg. aimed at 7.5t trucks
pulling a matching trailer. not many of these outfits on road. tbh most ive seen
are from mainland europe.
Fair few do the hazardous packaged goods transport between here and Rotterdam :thumb2
Deleted account DD
11-01-2010, 23:11
looking like you know what you are doing goes a long way to solving side of the road stops
We havent met have we :augie;)
Many have tried, very few succeeded:)
Only joking, on a more serious note theres a lot of cops who wont admit they dont know. I dont follow that. My phone is laden with decent contacts and when we cant sort it, its off the the jolly old DfT.
I wish more would do that instead of embarrassing themselves.
(RIP) PLANK
11-01-2010, 23:52
I know it sounds silly, but it pays to have all the little things in order, good tread on your tyres, all lights working, tax up to date, proper number plate on the trailer etc etc. as its these things that get you stopped in the first place!
and that's when the trouble starts!
I know it sounds silly, but it pays to have all the little things in order, good tread on your tyres, all lights working, tax up to date, proper number plate on the trailer etc etc. as its these things that get you stopped in the first place!
and that's when the trouble starts!
Well said but reading these posts one could be forgiven for thinking the UK IS a police state. Luckily,over her with a total police force of less than 15,000 for a population of 4 million, we don't have the manpower to deal with petty traffic offences on a large scale. Remember ,it's a TOTAL police force of less than 15,000 divided by three working shifts equals less than 5,000 minus HQ staff and excluding holidays,sick leave etc. Luck if we have 3,500 on duty at any one time. Dublin alone has a population of 1.5 million.:(
Muckypup
12-01-2010, 10:30
My understanding is this...
If you passed your test after Jan 97 you are limited to a maximum trailer weight of 750kgs braked or not. If you want to tow more than that you need B+E.
With B+E licence you can be a maximum train weight of 7 tonnes. IE 3500kgs Tow vehicle, 3500kgs trailer providing the towing vehicle is rated to tow such a weight. Eg a Defender Hi-cap with Ifor Williams trailer can easilly exceed 6 tonnes and still be perfectly legal.
I passed my B+E back in September and the instructor explained the rules very well for me. The full day course including test cost me a bit over £400.00. You need to do some lessons as you'll never pass just going straight for the test, its basically the same as a hgv test and they require you to drive differently to what they teach you for your normal driving test.
Deleted account DD
12-01-2010, 21:33
reading these posts one could be forgiven for thinking the UK IS a police state.
Dont worry it isnt. The government has given away the powers to everyone else :D
Thomas-the-Terrano2
13-01-2010, 20:38
My understanding is this...
If you passed your test after Jan 97 you are limited to a maximum trailer weight of 750kgs braked or not. If you want to tow more than that you need B+E.
With B+E licence you can be a maximum train weight of 7 tonnes. IE 3500kgs Tow vehicle, 3500kgs trailer providing the towing vehicle is rated to tow such a weight. Eg a Defender Hi-cap with Ifor Williams trailer can easilly exceed 6 tonnes and still be perfectly legal.
I passed my B+E back in September and the instructor explained the rules very well for me. The full day course including test cost me a bit over £400.00. You need to do some lessons as you'll never pass just going straight for the test, its basically the same as a hgv test and they require you to drive differently to what they teach you for your normal driving test.
close and spot on about test procedures but a staight cat B can tow 750 on top of its
own upto 3500 so 4250 OR a combination where the MAM of the trailer doesnt exceed
the MAM of the tug and combined is less than or equal to 3500.
so a 2 tonne car can tow a 1.5 tonne trailer, but something lumpier like a t2 at say
2.8 MAM or GVW will be limited to 700kg. this is on post 97 licences of course, rest of
us have grandfather rights including the +E trailer and most C1 which is 3500-7500kg
vehicles, and upto 16 seat minibuses, though 9 to 16 seats is limited to non hire and
reward. (D1).
The Patrolman
13-01-2010, 23:15
The 80% - 85% limit is only a recomendation.
I was told by a trailer manufacturer whom I had build a trailer mounted road side LED display that ran from a hydrogen fuel cell. The Law (which is an ass at best) states that you can tow upto 85% of the tow vehicles weight..............Unless you are experienced at towing you can then tow a trailer that is equal to the weight of the tow vehicle!!! WTF.. so if pulled over and asked if you are experienced just say yes!!
(RIP) PLANK
14-01-2010, 00:05
The 80% - 85% limit is only a recomendation.
I was told by a trailer manufacturer whom I had build a trailer mounted road side LED display that ran from a hydrogen fuel cell. The Law (which is an ass at best) states that you can tow upto 85% of the tow vehicles weight..............Unless you are experienced at towing you can then tow a trailer that is equal to the weight of the tow vehicle!!! WTF.. so if pulled over and asked if you are experienced just say yes!!
I'm not sure that is the law, as it wouls til make towing most trailer illegal with most vehicles, forget carvans for a minute as they are, as trailers go, disproportionately large and light.
Imagine a large horse box with two large horses?
or a livestock trailer, which i tow regularely with 3 or 4 cows?
triple decks of sheep?
mini digger, or road roller? you see large public bodies do this every day!
another car on a trailer?
you see there are strict laws for towing with commercials, all down to the gross weights and train weights as shown on the plates on the vehicle
but many large live stck trailers are the best part of 1500k empty and have a gross weight of 3500k so they would be illegal to tow with virtualy anything and so no one would make them anymore.
a T2 has a towing capacity of 2850K? so why if it legaly could tow about 1000k less?
my undertanding is that 85% is meraly a giudeline and there is no law, full stop! however ! of course if it appeared to be an issue and looked unsafe then i am sure it would break some law or other.
if there was a law surely it wouldn't be so criptic and would be clearly stated some where for us to read, for example the highway code?
the 85% is a rule,as far as i can tel,l thought up by caravan organisations, for the guidance of members, and protects people against stupid purhase descisions, though i maintain that proper loading and leveling is more important and much neglected. If they had their way and it became law, the rural community would be sorley out of pocket, again!
here are the specs for 2 popular current ifor williams horse trailers:
Model Tyres Gross Weight Unladen Weight Internal Length Internal Width Overall Length Overall Width
HB610 175R16C 3500kg 1450kg 4.25m 2.07m 5.74m 2.30m
HB510XL 175R16C 3500kg 1290kg 4.25m 1.74m 5.76m 2.30m
even if the 100% rule were law, you might as well take them both to the scrap yard today! bear in mind most older trailers are even heavier!
Deleted account DD
14-01-2010, 09:16
The 80% - 85% limit is only a recomendation.
I was told by a trailer manufacturer whom I had build a trailer mounted road side LED display that ran from a hydrogen fuel cell. The Law (which is an ass at best) states that you can tow upto 85% of the tow vehicles weight..............Unless you are experienced at towing you can then tow a trailer that is equal to the weight of the tow vehicle!!! WTF.. so if pulled over and asked if you are experienced just say yes!!
Sorry you have been completely misinformed. As posted earlier, you can tow any ratio you want so long as you dont exceed the lower or any combo of 3:
your vehicle tow rating
your trailer capacity
your combined weight ie gross train or combined weight whatever terminology is trendy as per the plate if applicable)
The 85% as stated by plank is a guide. "they" whoever they may have been reckoned its at the 85% ratio point is when you may have disproportionate problems getting nose weights sorted and its where a cross wind or speed may make the tail wag the dog :thumb2
Muckypup
14-01-2010, 11:26
I was on the M62 at Christmas and saw a Rover 216 towing a tandem axle trailer with another Rover 216 on its back, slightly over-loaded methinks...
Oh and there was a Volvo with flashing lights escorting it off the motorway :lol :clap :lol
zippy656
14-01-2010, 11:34
Blue lights i trust
think vatco you'll find limit on a 7.5 tonne licence presume you mean c1 is 8250 with
a +e entitlement as i recall a c1 can tow upto 750 kg so 8250 and a c1+e whilst still
8250 means truck can be less and more trailer.
its possible to take a further test that takes gtw to 12000kg. aimed at 7.5t trucks
pulling a matching trailer. not many of these outfits on road. tbh most ive seen
are from mainland europe.
suspect there are a lot of say 7.5t tippers tugging mini diggers incorrectly without
the enhanced c1+e ticket.
oh and for good measure a c1's 'e' differs in size from a d1(minibus)'s 'e' just like
it does for c(big truck/lgv/former class2 hgv) and d(bus).
you are correct we asked DVLA to clarify this some time ago
Here is the necessary
Medium Sized Vehicles
Category – C1
Minimum age – 18
See note 3
Lorries between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailerup to 750kg.
Medium Sized vehicles with trailers
Category – C1+E
Minimum age – 21
See note 3
Lorries between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer over 750kg - total weight not more than 12000kg (if you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg).
Note 3 Age 18 if combination weight is under 7500kg.
For most but not all that passed a test prior to 1997 C1+E is already on their licence
Anyone passing their test after this date has a whole set of different tests to get to the same point but once you have C1+E no mater haow you achieved it you can drive a truck and trailer with a train weight of upto 12 ton but the towing vehicle cannot exceed 7.5 tons GVW
As you say not two many rigs fit into that catagory but a big truck and an American 5ver often do
In this country you cannot pull a 30ft 5ver on the back of a 1ton Chev pick up like you can in some of the USA (well not legaly anyhow:) )
A lot of 5th wheel American style RV's are over 2.3mtrs wide and so need a vehicle with a GVW of at least 3501kgs
Also a vehicle of 3500kgs or less can only tow a max length of 7mtrs (approx 22.5ft) + the draw bar and hitch gear.
The 80 - 85% rule is just advisory and nothing else but you cannot tow a trailer that exceeds the GVW of the tug
The only other major gov rule is the vehicle manufacturers max listed weights where they exisit
Category B Licence holdersHowever is a whole different ball game
Motor vehicles with:
A maximum authorised mass (MAM) not over 3,500kg
A maximum of 8 seats (not including the driver's seat)
Trailers being towed by vehicles in this category must either:
Be not more than 750kg MAM - making a maximum authorised Train Weight of 4,250kg
Have a MAM which does not: - exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle
Have a MAM which does not: - Have a train weight exceeding 3,500kg
Drivers of vehicles in this category wishing to tow trailers which do not comply with either of the above conditions must have a B + E entitlement.
So:
In this cat you must not exceed 4250 kgs. That does not mean that if your tug weighs 2 ton you can pull a trailer that is 2250 kgs. Because your trailer weight must not exceed the tugs weight under any conditions
Quotes and figures taken from the NTTA and DVLA websites and personal correspondance from both DVLA and VOSA
neil_mccoll
14-01-2010, 17:49
So, can someone clarify this (again).
My Troll = 2120kg (I think)
My Van = 895kg (with nothing in it)
I passed my test after 1st Jan 1997
So can I tow without having to do another B+E Test?????
Sorry lets try to simplfy it a bit.
First: your maximum weight with the truck and the trailer loaded with whatever you (or the OH) decide to pack into both the truck and the trailer must not exceed 3500 kgs. (This is set because your trailer weighs more than 750Kgs.)
2nd:The MAM of the trailer must not exceed the UNLADEN weight of the truck
You need to know the unladen weight of the truck and the Maximum weight (MAM) of the trailer
To give a definative answer you need ALL the folowing information
Unladen weight of the tow car
Laden weight of the tow car
Manufacturers maximum designed train weight or amximum weight of the trailer you can pull. This last point may or may not exist for your vehicle but if it does exisit then it also has to be taken into account
Maximum permissable laden weight of the trailer.
You cannot hope to wade through these overcomplicated red tape regs without these facts (which is why 'Ol bill is oft confused) and so many folk just hook up and go. It can be a nightmare to work it all out.
It has to be said that for most vehicles the answer is that you can tow almost any single axle caravan behind the average fam saloon but many 4x4's will (stupidly in my opinion) fall foul
So you having asked the question we need to get the correct answer and because of the way the regs are writen you need to know the reasons for that answer lest you ever get a jobsworth on the side of the road
Thomas-the-Terrano2
14-01-2010, 22:41
ok so lets have a look at this one.
assuming you have a B+E ticket.
nice ifor williams trailer gross weight 3500kg. unladen far less.
can it be towed by a terrano with a max trailer weight of 2800
or what ever it is, or is a troll needed that has the 3500 limit.
this is applied on basis that either the trailer is unladen or only
loaded to the 2800 that t2 can tug?
I believe not, anyone care to agree, disagree with reasoning.
(RIP) PLANK
14-01-2010, 23:40
ok so lets have a look at this one.
assuming you have a B+E ticket.
nice ifor williams trailer gross weight 3500kg. unladen far less.
can it be towed by a terrano with a max trailer weight of 2800
or what ever it is, or is a troll needed that has the 3500 limit.
this is applied on basis that either the trailer is unladen or only
loaded to the 2800 that t2 can tug?
I believe not, anyone care to agree, disagree with reasoning.
i have no reason for this, but! i would tow it with a t2 and in fact have done and will do again, and I see many other people doing the same every day!
ok so lets have a look at this one.
assuming you have a B+E ticket.
nice ifor williams trailer gross weight 3500kg. unladen far less.
can it be towed by a terrano with a max trailer weight of 2800
or what ever it is, or is a troll needed that has the 3500 limit.
this is applied on basis that either the trailer is unladen or only
loaded to the 2800 that t2 can tug?
I believe not, anyone care to agree, disagree with reasoning.
The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.
The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.
Correct. It doesnt mater how much the unladen or part laden weight of the trailer is. It is a 3500kgs trailer.
The T2 can't legaly pull it.
its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts
Not quite. The trailer plate is all important for visual legality but a worried Plod can have you weighed if he thinks you may be overloaded so a trailer that weighs more than 2800 kgs with it's load isstill illeagl behind the T2 no mater what the plate says if you have overloaded. AND ignorance is bliss but no excuse in the eyes of the law
Fact is Plod has far to much to do and far to few to do it with. Hell they can't even enforce easier regs like mobile phone use so they have little chance of effectivly enforcing trailer laws.
However, more and more of this stuff is now being dealt with by VOSA, I was weigh checked recently with the lorry. I had a 51 stepside Chev on the bed and a 22ft Airstrem on the hook. I pulled into a service station and as I pulled in I got copped by VOSA.
"going to a show?" the guy asked me. "private then" he muttered. I just grinned and didn't say oaught.
He should of asked for my Tacho disk but because he assumed I was private he didn't.
He then apologetically stated that he needed to check my weight and rolled me over a set of scales.
Point is, he thought I was private and didn't bother to check. As a private I didn't need Tacho but was still liable for weights etc. If I had been over I would have been Nicked. So watch out. The boys in blue are not the only ones that will pull you now. And if VOSA pull you they have the power to act and Plod has to support them so less chance of talking your way outa it.
Thomas-the-Terrano2
15-01-2010, 13:42
so vatco, was involved in getting me pre 97 c1+e increased from gtw 8250
to 12000. could i use a c1 with my 20' twin axle caravan?
and further can a regular c1+e from pre 97 tow a car on a spec lift as the towd
car is going to be over 750 or is the front end classed as part of wagon's weight
and the train broken up into axle weights. guess be ok if truck is say a 6 tonner
but if 7.5 going to be an issue.
so vatco, was involved in getting me pre 97 c1+e increased from gtw 8250
to 12000.
You will need to 'upstage your licence' best to see DVLA upstegaing on their website for that one
could i use a c1 with my 20' twin axle caravan?
It's all about alowable weights
and further can a regular c1+e from pre 97 tow a car on a spec lift as the towd
car is going to be over 750 or is the front end classed as part of wagon's weight
and the train broken up into axle weights. guess be ok if truck is say a 6 tonner
but if 7.5 going to be an issue.
For the purpose of the law then the vehicle on the Spec's becomes a trailer and is subjected to the same regs as any other trailer
Many spec operators are unknowingly breaking the law on this simply because the way the law is writen the trailer is clased on its MAM (or gross vehicle weight) So some of the smaller spec lift trucks can be over wieght depending on the car they have on the frame.
With spec lift trucks you do need to be careful as they are subjected to other laws as well.
for example:
Most folk know that a spec lift, as long as it is classed as a breakdown truck and not a recovery vehicle, is exempt from plating (MOT) however many operators I know use the vehicle for work other than assisting a disabled vehicle (ie a quick trip to the shops, pub or to pick up the sprog from skool) this is illegal.
i sometimes use my Spec lft to go to the pub as well but there is always a busted vehicle in the pub car park :sly
Some breakdown trucks are exempt from tacho laws and some are not etc, etc,
This is an even more grey and confusing area than the trailer laws.
Muckypup
18-01-2010, 13:44
The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.
I find this a little hard to believe...
My understanding is based on the in-depth explination given to me by my instructor immediately after passing my B+E test last September.
He explained it that you can legally tow up to the weight given by the manufacturer for the vehicle. Eg - Diahatsu gave a max towing weight for the 4Trak of 3500kgs, but the vehicle actually weighs far less than that we'll say for example 2500kgs. I asked about the rule of "tug must be heavier than trailer" which he claimed was just a government recommendation and not law???
He explained that if the manufacturers weight was 3500kgs, this figure is worked out from the cars weight, gearing, stopping and tractive powers and deemed safe. Therefore the above vehicle could be 2500kgs+3500kgs trailer giving a gross train weight of 6000kgs and still legal. (But not recommended)
The Terrano has a max tow weight of 2800kgs, and the Ifor Williams trailer may be plated 3500kgs gross. My understanding is that the Terrano can tow the trailer legally untill a gross trailer weight of 2800kgs is achieved, any more and the load would become illegal.
If that wasnt the case it means towing an empty trailer of around 1000kgs with a vehicle capable of towing 2800kgs is completely illegal and I cannot see that being the case some how.
I paid to do my B+E because I was regulally towing trailers outside of my license and wanted to become legal. I also exlained this to the instructor who attempted to make the rules clear to me as I often tow very heavy Rolls-Royces and other vintage cars which weigh a lot... Hope he explained it correctly as I tow to his rules :nenau
If that wasnt the case it means towing an empty trailer of around 1000kgs with a vehicle capable of towing 2800kgs is completely illegal and I cannot see that being the case some how.
yes this is illegal see this link to the ifor williams website
http://www.iwt.co.uk/customer-care/faq-categories/1358
If you want to tow 3500kg buy a fourtrak i did!
(RIP) PLANK
18-01-2010, 18:43
The tow vehicle has to be plated to tow the weight on the trailer plate ie a terrano cant pull the ifor williams trailer.I you look at the ifor website when you buy a new trailer they will downplate the trailer so as it can be legally towed.its actually irrelavant what weight is on the trailer its the plate that counts.
so if i have a vehicle weight either 1850 or a 85% match of 1850 they will downrate a trailer weighing 1500k empty (bear on mind the empty weight of the trialer is a fixed thing in all of this) to suit my requirements? i.e a gross weight of 1850?
fantastic, now all i would need is anorexic horses, to not overdo the 300k payload :lol :lol
so if i have a vehicle weight either 1850 or a 85% match of 1850 they will downrate a trailer weighing 1500k empty (bear on mind the empty weight of the trialer is a fixed thing in all of this) to suit my requirements? i.e a gross weight of 1850?
fantastic, now all i would need is anorexic horses, to not overdo the 300k payload :lol :lol
If youre towing a trailer that weighs 1500kg empty then you are going to need a fourtrak or range rover to pull it unless you part ex the horses for dogs :lol
Thomas-the-Terrano2
18-01-2010, 21:27
plank the 85% is only a recommendation.
what is being said i believe is mr williams will down rate the mam(GVW) of the trailer to the
max towing weight of truck.
oh and max towing weight of a vehicle I recall is based onits ability to restart the train
on a 1 in 8 incline uphill. the mam of a trailer can subject to this be more than the
kerb weight(unladen) or gvw though rarely is for the latter. it tends to be equal.
Deleted account DD
18-01-2010, 21:32
If youre towing a trailer that weighs 1500kg empty then you are going to need a fourtrak or range rover to pull it
Or a jeep :augie
I find this a little hard to believe...
My understanding is based on the in-depth explination given to me by my instructor immediately after passing my B+E test last September.
He explained it that you can legally tow up to the weight given by the manufacturer for the vehicle. Eg - Diahatsu gave a max towing weight for the 4Trak of 3500kgs, but the vehicle actually weighs far less than that we'll say for example 2500kgs. I asked about the rule of "tug must be heavier than trailer" which he claimed was just a government recommendation and not law???
He explained that if the manufacturers weight was 3500kgs, this figure is worked out from the cars weight, gearing, stopping and tractive powers and deemed safe. Therefore the above vehicle could be 2500kgs+3500kgs trailer giving a gross train weight of 6000kgs and still legal. (But not recommended)
The Terrano has a max tow weight of 2800kgs, and the Ifor Williams trailer may be plated 3500kgs gross. My understanding is that the Terrano can tow the trailer legally untill a gross trailer weight of 2800kgs is achieved, any more and the load would become illegal.
If that wasnt the case it means towing an empty trailer of around 1000kgs with a vehicle capable of towing 2800kgs is completely illegal and I cannot see that being the case some how.
I paid to do my B+E because I was regulally towing trailers outside of my license and wanted to become legal. I also exlained this to the instructor who attempted to make the rules clear to me as I often tow very heavy Rolls-Royces and other vintage cars which weigh a lot... Hope he explained it correctly as I tow to his rules :nenau
First let me say that I wasn't there when your instructor gave you this explanation. It is possible that you miss-understood, hearing what you needed to hear so tht you could go about your business. But I also say this:-
9 out of 10 people that we have purchase a trailer from us that have been through the 'Trailer Test' we have to re-train in order to make them safe towing restored trailer caravans often worth in excess of £30k.
Most of them have little idea of how to load a trailer correctly for balance; they have little idea of how to reverse a trailer properly; they know very little about trailer safety. And most have the road sense of a rutting toad.
By the same instance a lot of folk that pass their driving test can't drive they have just been taught how to pass their test.
Sorry I don't wish to insult new Drivers or drivers that have just passed their TT and I am sure that most folk on here don't fit that description.
Now lets get back to the law
It is written on the DVLA web site - it is very clear
There are fuller descriptions on .gov but you need a degree in motoring law to understand the correct interpretation.
NTTA website has a good description of the law as it applies to tin tent pullers and this will give a good idea of how to interprate the law for other tuggers.
Vehicle construction and use is also a good source of information if you wanna go in depth on your tugs abilities.
If the law allowed, as some believe, you to pull a trailer of say MAM=3500kgs behind a vehicle that was not capable of taking the full possible weight of that trailer then the law would also have to allow a car driver to drive a 7500kgs truck because empty it only weighed 3500kgs.
It would also mean that a every vehicle (private or commercial) that was carrying a load of any sort on the public highway when pulled for a check would have to be weighed.
No this doesn’t make sense
Your legalities for loads are set on what is possible not what is actual for the equipment you are using.
Commercial OP's will know that you can have any vehicle re-plated for a lesser weight under certain circumstances. I used to have a 9 ton truck down plated by MOT to 7.5. I have had busses re-assessed for conversion to Motor Homes...........Trailers are no different; A manu can plate a trailer for the maximum load it is to carry and most manu's will do so on purchase. This is perfectly7 legal and correct.
It also has to be said that, agree or not, law's are passed often because of a necessity. A lot of the time driving laws are upgraded or changed because of the constantly growing number of idiotic drivers behavior and lack of responsibility on the road.
How many times have you seen tin tenters with overloaded or wrongly balanced trailers?
How many times have you followed a trailer and watched it wagging it's tail?
How many times have you seen a driver unable to reverse a load that is trailerised? (lack of proper control)
How many accidents with trailers are caused by lack of maintenance?
I could go on
I often tow 'illegal' loads..............there are laws to govern that as well.
Laws that allow me to have a train length of over 60ft; laws that allow me to tug 'overweight' or 'overwide' etc
There are even laws that allows me to drive a vehicle for which I do not hold a license :eek::eek:
And, as far as trailer laws are concerned it really PISSES ME OFF that every few years the law comes down even harder because of the few idiots that don't or won't comply
The next proposed batch is the private trailer MOT..............As far as our procedures are concerned it makes little difference as we will never pass a trailer on to a customer that is unsafe for the road and we will never let a customer leave here with a rig that is not up to it. We even do our best to make sure that the driver is competent with the outfit he has just purchased. But the infrastructure that will need to be in place for these regulations will cost us BIG TIME and that is a cost that we will have difficulty passing on to the customer
Unfortunately, these laws are becoming essential
Sorry folk. I'll get down off my soapbox now.
But like it or not; you cannot legally tow a trailer plated @ 3500kgs behind a truck that is rated @ 2800kgs. Loaded or not. Furthermore I know of no 4x4 in this country (unless specially adapted) that can legally tow a load in excess of 3500kgs (see special construction and use of motor vehicles) But I see many doing so
But then again why would you need to? There are plenty vehicles that can legally tow these weights. We have 2............they are called medium duty vehicles............small trucks. Like a 5.5 ton Dodge and a 7.5 ton Merc
Muckypup
19-01-2010, 11:35
First let me say that I wasn't there when your instructor gave you this explanation. It is possible that you miss-understood, hearing what you needed to hear so tht you could go about your business. But I also say this:-
9 out of 10 people that we have purchase a trailer from us that have been through the 'Trailer Test' we have to re-train in order to make them safe towing restored trailer caravans often worth in excess of £30k.
Most of them have little idea of how to load a trailer correctly for balance; they have little idea of how to reverse a trailer properly; they know very little about trailer safety. And most have the road sense of a rutting toad.
By the same instance a lot of folk that pass their driving test can't drive they have just been taught how to pass their test.
Sorry I don't wish to insult new Drivers or drivers that have just passed their TT and I am sure that most folk on here don't fit that description.
Now lets get back to the law
It is written on the DVLA web site - it is very clear
There are fuller descriptions on .gov but you need a degree in motoring law to understand the correct interpretation.
NTTA website has a good description of the law as it applies to tin tent pullers and this will give a good idea of how to interprate the law for other tuggers.
Vehicle construction and use is also a good source of information if you wanna go in depth on your tugs abilities.
If the law allowed, as some believe, you to pull a trailer of say MAM=3500kgs behind a vehicle that was not capable of taking the full possible weight of that trailer then the law would also have to allow a car driver to drive a 7500kgs truck because empty it only weighed 3500kgs.
It would also mean that a every vehicle (private or commercial) that was carrying a load of any sort on the public highway when pulled for a check would have to be weighed.
No this doesn’t make sense
Your legalities for loads are set on what is possible not what is actual for the equipment you are using.
Commercial OP's will know that you can have any vehicle re-plated for a lesser weight under certain circumstances. I used to have a 9 ton truck down plated by MOT to 7.5. I have had busses re-assessed for conversion to Motor Homes...........Trailers are no different; A manu can plate a trailer for the maximum load it is to carry and most manu's will do so on purchase. This is perfectly7 legal and correct.
It also has to be said that, agree or not, law's are passed often because of a necessity. A lot of the time driving laws are upgraded or changed because of the constantly growing number of idiotic drivers behavior and lack of responsibility on the road.
How many times have you seen tin tenters with overloaded or wrongly balanced trailers?
How many times have you followed a trailer and watched it wagging it's tail?
How many times have you seen a driver unable to reverse a load that is trailerised? (lack of proper control)
How many accidents with trailers are caused by lack of maintenance?
I could go on
I often tow 'illegal' loads..............there are laws to govern that as well.
Laws that allow me to have a train length of over 60ft; laws that allow me to tug 'overweight' or 'overwide' etc
There are even laws that allows me to drive a vehicle for which I do not hold a license :eek::eek:
And, as far as trailer laws are concerned it really PISSES ME OFF that every few years the law comes down even harder because of the few idiots that don't or won't comply
The next proposed batch is the private trailer MOT..............As far as our procedures are concerned it makes little difference as we will never pass a trailer on to a customer that is unsafe for the road and we will never let a customer leave here with a rig that is not up to it. We even do our best to make sure that the driver is competent with the outfit he has just purchased. But the infrastructure that will need to be in place for these regulations will cost us BIG TIME and that is a cost that we will have difficulty passing on to the customer
Unfortunately, these laws are becoming essential
Sorry folk. I'll get down off my soapbox now.
But like it or not; you cannot legally tow a trailer plated @ 3500kgs behind a truck that is rated @ 2800kgs. Loaded or not. Furthermore I know of no 4x4 in this country (unless specially adapted) that can legally tow a load in excess of 3500kgs (see special construction and use of motor vehicles) But I see many doing so
But then again why would you need to? There are plenty vehicles that can legally tow these weights. We have 2............they are called medium duty vehicles............small trucks. Like a 5.5 ton Dodge and a 7.5 ton Merc
Thanks for the explination. I will consider myself told and will act on the information given above in future :augie
Just a thought, if this all boils down to a plate on the trailer what if the plate dissappears? whilst there are no tests required for a trailer surely maintaining items such as the chassis plate cannot be enforced. I may be going down the wrong road here but if im towing a 3500kgs trailer with a car rated to 2800kgs, but there is no plate saying 3500kgs how can I be overloaded? If Ifor Williams can down plate the same trailers then how is any governing body going to enforce these rules when the same trailer could be any weight and there is no MOT or reg document for the trailer enforcing the plates...
Basically the whole law is a farce, the rules are very patchy and full of "grey areas". Even with the trailer plates, you can make a home-made trailer and tow it, I see them everyday. Bet theres no "official" plate on those... I even know of a single axle car trailer someone made from a caravan chassis.
With the introduction of a trailer MOT I can see the above problems instantly solved, but until then there will always be "grey areas".
lacroupade
19-01-2010, 12:39
Sorry I don't wish to insult new Drivers or drivers that have just passed their TT and I am sure that most folk on here don't fit that description.
Why not, its arrogance or cockiness about our own capability or knowledge thats the usual problem isn't it - I can remember learning my biggest lesson about load balancing the very hard way years ago when I thought I already knew it all.
Borrowed a mates car and trailer and drove my half-restored Beetle on to it.
Nose first.
Don't even need to tell you the rest of the story do I! :o
But nobody is immune IMHO, we are learning every day of our lives. :thumbs
Thanks for the explination. I will consider myself told and will act on the information given above in future :augie
Sorry but............:D
Just a thought, if this all boils down to a plate on the trailer what if the plate dissappears? whilst there are no tests required for a trailer surely maintaining items such as the chassis plate cannot be enforced. I may be going down the wrong road here but if im towing a 3500kgs trailer with a car rated to 2800kgs, but there is no plate saying 3500kgs how can I be overloaded? If Ifor Williams can down plate the same trailers then how is any governing body going to enforce these rules when the same trailer could be any weight and there is no MOT or reg document for the trailer enforcing the plates...
First it has been law for a while now that ALL trailers must carry a plate. A trailer without that plate is illegal
The unladen wieght sited is just that......The unladen wieght of the trailer
The laden weight takes into account a number of facts but basially it is the maximum weight that the trailer is able to carry safely
You will often see a 'share' rating as well which is the allowable weight on each of the trailers axles
The Old bill, Vosa etc use the maximum wieght of the trailer first to determine if it is possibly illegal. Then if unsure can weigh you
Basically the whole law is a farce, the rules are very patchy and full of "grey areas". Even with the trailer plates, you can make a home-made trailer and tow it, I see them everyday. Bet theres no "official" plate on those... I even know of a single axle car trailer someone made from a caravan chassis.
With the introduction of a trailer MOT I can see the above problems instantly solved, but until then there will always be "grey areas".
There are a lot of 'Grey' areas . No one (including me) said that the law is correct, sensible or enforcible.
But, the fact is that it is the law
It is also open to interpretation...............That is for the courts to decide although they are more likley to side with a plod or a member of VOSA than they are a driver of a rig that has been questioned on a point of safety:D
If you know and understand what the law is then there are loopholes that you can crawl through on occasion:augie
Again though I will say that no mater what I or anyone else thinks, these laws have been bought in for a very good reason.
I always wince and steer well clear of a man towing sometimes close to 4 tons behind a 4x4 especially as I often see them travelling to close to the car in front; not evenly loaded,; tires looking squished; exceding the speed limit; not taking into account that other drivers may well make mistakes around them and not allow for their load etc.
2800kgs means exactly that. Towing more may be safe but ?
Besides I didn't think that this thread was for an open argument on the rights and wrongs of the law
I thought it had been a question on what was the legal stance.
maybe I was wrong in my assumption?
Why not, its arrogance or cockiness about our own capability or knowledge thats the usual problem isn't it - I can remember learning my biggest lesson about load balancing the very hard way years ago when I thought I already knew it all.
Borrowed a mates car and trailer and drove my half-restored Beetle on to it.
Nose first.
Don't even need to tell you the rest of the story do I! :o
IT WAS U :D:lol:lol
But nobody is immune IMHO, we are learning every day of our lives. :thumbs
I agree
But
Only some of us :D
lacroupade
19-01-2010, 13:38
Besides I didn't think that this thread was for an open argument on the rights and wrongs of the law
I thought it had been a question on what was the legal stance.
maybe I was wrong in my assumption?
I don't think it matters much vatco.....at the end of the day, theres no such thing as a stupid question and our threads ALWAYS meander all over the place and its surprising what pops out sometimes. I found your input is very useful - thanks!:thumb2
I don't think it matters much vatco.....at the end of the day, theres no such thing as a stupid question and our threads ALWAYS meander all over the place and its surprising what pops out sometimes. I found your input is very useful - thanks!:thumb2
:D
Oo er my message is too short?
lacroupade
19-01-2010, 14:52
:D
Oo er my message is too short?
I don't usually have that problem LOL :)
Muckypup
19-01-2010, 16:39
Sorry but............:D
First it has been law for a while now that ALL trailers must carry a plate. A trailer without that plate is illegal
The unladen wieght sited is just that......The unladen wieght of the trailer
The laden weight takes into account a number of facts but basially it is the maximum weight that the trailer is able to carry safely
You will often see a 'share' rating as well which is the allowable weight on each of the trailers axles
The Old bill, Vosa etc use the maximum wieght of the trailer first to determine if it is possibly illegal. Then if unsure can weigh you
There are a lot of 'Grey' areas . No one (including me) said that the law is correct, sensible or enforcible.
But, the fact is that it is the law
It is also open to interpretation...............That is for the courts to decide although they are more likley to side with a plod or a member of VOSA than they are a driver of a rig that has been questioned on a point of safety:D
If you know and understand what the law is then there are loopholes that you can crawl through on occasion:augie
Again though I will say that no mater what I or anyone else thinks, these laws have been bought in for a very good reason.
I always wince and steer well clear of a man towing sometimes close to 4 tons behind a 4x4 especially as I often see them travelling to close to the car in front; not evenly loaded,; tires looking squished; exceding the speed limit; not taking into account that other drivers may well make mistakes around them and not allow for their load etc.
2800kgs means exactly that. Towing more may be safe but ?
Besides I didn't think that this thread was for an open argument on the rights and wrongs of the law
I thought it had been a question on what was the legal stance.
maybe I was wrong in my assumption?
Thanks for the feedback, on a serious note I will be following your advise and also talking to my B+E instructor as I know him and hes local. Im beginning to wonder if he knows the full extent of the law regarding towing with a 4x4, after all he only needs to know how to make people pass there test to be an instructor and weights are not part of the test...:rolleyes:
The number of trailers that are on the road and un-plated must be enormous, there are tons of home made ones around my area including the caravan chassis car transporter down the road. Based on the sheer number i'd have never thought they were illegal, but I suppose ignorance is no excuse.
I also have a smart late 70s small fibre-glass box trailer I use for camping. I know this has no plate, what do I do? Or is it technically "scrap"?
I don't usually have that problem LOL :)
No nor me
Thanks for the feedback, on a serious note I will be following your advise and also talking to my B+E instructor as I know him and hes local. Im beginning to wonder if he knows the full extent of the law regarding towing with a 4x4, after all he only needs to know how to make people pass there test to be an instructor and weights are not part of the test...:rolleyes:
Quite pos the case but don't ailianate him. No one likes to be told that their 'expertise' is flawed:D
Aside:- Definition of an expert:(X spurt)
'X' = an unknown quantity and 'Spurt' = a drip under pressure :jesterbg
The number of trailers that are on the road and un-plated must be enormous, there are tons of home made ones around my area including the caravan chassis car transporter down the road. Based on the sheer number i'd have never thought they were illegal, but I suppose ignorance is no excuse.
Correct on all counts. + the state of a lot of those trailers makes me cringe
I also have a smart late 70s small fibre-glass box trailer I use for camping. I know this has no plate, what do I do? Or is it technically "scrap"?
No it is not scrap so don't junk it
If you are stopped and pulled you can be GV9'd (and plenty have) Technically without that plate you are not road legal just as with defective lights etc.
Of course you have to be pulled in the first place for that to be seen
But if you look like you are private then you are even less likely to be pulled
This is an even greyer area.
They passed a law stating that all trailers (with exceptions) must cary a wieght plate. However our estemed powers that be never gave a clear and concise route to making older trailers that didn't need a plate at manufacture comply. This is something that I am working on with the authorities at the moment for clarification. Also there is, as yet, no clarity as to who can plate, who can self certify etc.
At the moment we comply by simply atatching a plate to a trailer that we refurbish. There is no law that says we can't and there is no law to say we must be certified for plating a trailer that was not maufactured by us. Only that the axles, hitch gear, chasiss etc must bu suitable for carrying the weight that we specify?????????????????
It's a complete minefield and a total mess
Bit like the electric brake issue............it took us 2 yrs hard work to clarify that one and now, having clarified it, they have decided that it's not good enough and are changing the law........Oooops :D
However, having been involved on the ground floor we are privey to what the new law is going to be before it is issued.
That has given us a big edge and we now already comply with the new laws as they will be. Indeed we are starting to get trailers that have been GV9'd for conversion already
I hope it will be the same for wieght plating:D
Now (not that I am touting for business) if you just happened to be in our area and needed a small repair, service etc (cleaning the beer swill out of your light lenses is usually enough :thumbs )And just hppened to have a certified unladen weight cert from a registered weighbridge then I would of course point out the illegal state of you box trailer in the fact that it had no wieght plate and be obliged to supply you with one before allowing you to continue your journey.... If you get my drift. The unladen wieght cert and the axle ratings is enough information to issue a plate and then your trailer complies :thumbs
You could, of course, just find someone local to yourself that could do the same
Muckypup
20-01-2010, 11:11
No nor me
Quite pos the case but don't ailianate him. No one likes to be told that their 'expertise' is flawed:D
Aside:- Definition of an expert:(X spurt)
'X' = an unknown quantity and 'Spurt' = a drip under pressure :jesterbg
Correct on all counts. + the state of a lot of those trailers makes me cringe
No it is not scrap so don't junk it
If you are stopped and pulled you can be GV9'd (and plenty have) Technically without that plate you are not road legal just as with defective lights etc.
Of course you have to be pulled in the first place for that to be seen
But if you look like you are private then you are even less likely to be pulled
This is an even greyer area.
They passed a law stating that all trailers (with exceptions) must cary a wieght plate. However our estemed powers that be never gave a clear and concise route to making older trailers that didn't need a plate at manufacture comply. This is something that I am working on with the authorities at the moment for clarification. Also there is, as yet, no clarity as to who can plate, who can self certify etc.
At the moment we comply by simply atatching a plate to a trailer that we refurbish. There is no law that says we can't and there is no law to say we must be certified for plating a trailer that was not maufactured by us. Only that the axles, hitch gear, chasiss etc must bu suitable for carrying the weight that we specify?????????????????
It's a complete minefield and a total mess
Bit like the electric brake issue............it took us 2 yrs hard work to clarify that one and now, having clarified it, they have decided that it's not good enough and are changing the law........Oooops :D
However, having been involved on the ground floor we are privey to what the new law is going to be before it is issued.
That has given us a big edge and we now already comply with the new laws as they will be. Indeed we are starting to get trailers that have been GV9'd for conversion already
I hope it will be the same for wieght plating:D
Now (not that I am touting for business) if you just happened to be in our area and needed a small repair, service etc (cleaning the beer swill out of your light lenses is usually enough :thumbs )And just hppened to have a certified unladen weight cert from a registered weighbridge then I would of course point out the illegal state of you box trailer in the fact that it had no wieght plate and be obliged to supply you with one before allowing you to continue your journey.... If you get my drift. The unladen wieght cert and the axle ratings is enough information to issue a plate and then your trailer complies :thumbs
You could, of course, just find someone local to yourself that could do the same
Thanks, thats very kind of you :thumb2
I plan to give the trailer a clean up and some new wheels and axles. Then I plan to paint it the same colour as my car so I have a nice matching camping trailer. When I do this I will definitely fetch it along for a safety check and service by yourselves and a nice shiney chassis plate :clap
Probably need a new coupling too as I believe it may be the old size and not 50mm:doh
makeitfit
20-01-2010, 11:44
Thanks, thats very kind of you :thumb2
I plan to give the trailer a clean up and some new wheels and axles. Then I plan to paint it the same colour as my car so I have a nice matching camping trailer. When I do this I will definitely fetch it along for a safety check and service by yourselves and a nice shiney chassis plate :clap
Probably need a new coupling too as I believe it may be the old size and not 50mm:doh
Sounds like a Trigger trailer :lol
Thanks, thats very kind of you :thumb2
I plan to give the trailer a clean up and some new wheels and axles. Then I plan to paint it the same colour as my car so I have a nice matching camping trailer. When I do this I will definitely fetch it along for a safety check and service by yourselves and a nice shiney chassis plate :clap
Probably need a new coupling too as I believe it may be the old size and not 50mm:doh
If your date of Manu is correct then it should be a 50mm but new coupling is no prob. We would have to order one in as we don't keep them in stock.......to many types.
PM me if you want more deets
Muckypup
20-01-2010, 16:18
Sounds like a Trigger trailer :lol
?? Sorry missed that one lol! :confused:
I'll have to post a pic, its a cracking little thing and my dad bought it new. Its seen hardly any use. I was playing with the idea of giving it a bit more ground clearance and some chunky tyres so I could use it behind the Samurai on mini-expeditions :lol
What is the suspension at the moment?
Is it on leaf springs? If so I may well have an axle that will fit and give you extra ground clearance and bigger wheels
Got to watch the hitch height as well though and the C of G so don't need to go too high if you plan to do a lot of blacktop miles
Muckypup
20-01-2010, 18:04
No its on little independant arms with typical small trailer wheels. I'd like to change that if possible to something that could take larger wheels, any ideas? :)
Thomas-the-Terrano2
20-01-2010, 22:38
isnt having a plate, or serial number something for trailers post 79 or similar.
i'm sure theres a cut off for over run brakes, bit like when proper glass
windows in caravans was outlawed.
sure its mentioned in trailer law in the caravan club handbook, not that i
can immediately lay my hands on mine.
btw vatco nice to have some real knowledge on the subject on board, reckon
you are now our trailer guru.
you mentioned 3500 as a limit, but feel sure at some point something had
a 4 tonne limit, maybe classic rangey though of course it could have be
standardised along the way. i had one 20 yrs ago and certainly recall it
stating an 8 tonne limit restricted to a very low speed, maybe in low box
in agricultral mode??. hey anyone remember west yorks police using a rrc
may be 2 to get artics moving stuck on m62 in 70's winters. ok more of
a short term recovery move than full blown towing but believe meeting
the requirement kept all the other marques out of WY police purchases
for several years...
also whilst i cant rember which one but likely a dodge ram 1500, with the
correct axle ratio was plated atleast in states to tow more than 3500
though unsure if would be same if imported here. i say a 1500 as it would
gvw under 3500 for b licence, naturally their 2500/3500 3/4 and 1 ton
pickups can tow alot more but their gvw put them like your works wagons
into c1 and likely back to 5th wheels n elecy brakes for good measure.
No its on little independant arms with typical small trailer wheels. I'd like to change that if possible to something that could take larger wheels, any ideas? :)
Hmm indespension yuck! good for camping trailers etc but don't like them for work. Best solution would be a torx or duraflex
Depends on budget and dimensions really
But options are there defo
isnt having a plate, or serial number something for trailers post 79 or similar.
Try telling old bill or VOSA that!
It was meant to be but the wording got hashed somewher and the official interpretation takes it as 'ALL' (grrrrr)
i'm sure theres a cut off for over run brakes, bit like when proper glass
windows in caravans was outlawed.
Again see above.. Vintage trailers are suposed to be exempt but official notification from Dept of Transport is to the contrary. However it has to be said that you can get away with it on the side of the road if you are polite enough and sound like you know your stuff. We do often but we do not advise others to try
sure its mentioned in trailer law in the caravan club handbook, not that i
can immediately lay my hands on mine.
Sorry can not trust that organisation on these points anymore. They once tried to say Airstream trailers where ilegal full stop
btw vatco nice to have some real knowledge on the subject on board, reckon
you are now our trailer guru.
Ooooo errr. well better than being an x-spurt I suppose :augie
It is my job and with the sort of work I do then I have to stay up-2-date otherwise I would be well and trully stuffed
you mentioned 3500 as a limit, but feel sure at some point something had
a 4 tonne limit, maybe classic rangey though of course it could have be
standardised along the way. i had one 20 yrs ago and certainly recall it
stating an 8 tonne limit restricted to a very low speed, maybe in low box
in agricultral mode??. hey anyone remember west yorks police using a rrc
may be 2 to get artics moving stuck on m62 in 70's winters. ok more of
a short term recovery move than full blown towing but believe meeting
the requirement kept all the other marques out of WY police purchases
for several years...
also whilst i cant rember which one but likely a dodge ram 1500, with the
correct axle ratio was plated atleast in states to tow more than 3500
though unsure if would be same if imported here. i say a 1500 as it would
gvw under 3500 for b licence, naturally their 2500/3500 3/4 and 1 ton
pickups can tow alot more but their gvw put them like your works wagons
into c1 and likely back to 5th wheels n elecy brakes for good measure.
There are options; There are also loopholes. But in my opinion if you don't know about the special rules then you prob shouldn't be doing it :D
We recently towed a 34 ft 4 ton trailer caravan with a 4x4 Troll quite legally
and got pulled
and got checked
and got sent on our way with blessings because all paperwork etc was not only in order all notices made and registered but we had all copies on board and to hand.
5 min shortest plod pull with an abnormal I have ever had
Now lets see: for a start we where overlength 7 mtrs is the normal limit; We where overwide as well because the truck is plated at GVW 3500kgs and the trailer was 8ft
Oh and don't forget we where a ton over the plated weight of the tug
So you can do it if you know how
Showmen regularly pull loads in excess of allowable train length, over weight, oversize, multiple trailer pulls, etc
Many vehicles are capable of pulling and stopping far more than the plated restrictions they are given for sale to the general public
Most manu's want to sell there non comertial vehicles to ordinary punters and because of driving licence laws world wide would never dream of restricting a Troll or similar to someone with a HGV licence
Muckypup
21-01-2010, 10:58
"Many vehicles are capable of pulling and stopping far more than the plated restrictions they are given for sale to the general public
Most manu's want to sell there non comertial vehicles to ordinary punters and because of driving licence laws world wide would never dream of restricting a Troll or similar to someone with a HGV licence "
But does that not contradict what you explained earlier in this thread??? How is it that you were towing a four ton trailer with a vehicle plated at a ton less than that? Didnt you say a Terrano rated at 2800kgs cant tow an empty trailer weighing 1000kgs but plated for 3500kgs?
Or are you saying that you have a Troll, purchased with a higher towing rating because you have a HGV license?
If this is the case I may well be saving up for another catagory adding to my license :D
But does that not contradict what you explained earlier in this thread??? How is it that you were towing a four ton trailer with a vehicle plated at a ton less than that? Didnt you say a Terrano rated at 2800kgs cant tow an empty trailer weighing 1000kgs but plated for 3500kgs?
Or are you saying that you have a Troll, purchased with a higher towing rating because you have a HGV license?
If this is the case I may well be saving up for another catagory adding to my license :D
No
As I said there are loopholes
Troll in question is registered as a specially adapted vehicle
Over length and overweight covered by official notices
Over wide and over length covered by escort
You don't want to go down this route----getting the vehicle reregistered involves allsorts of inspections, paperwork and hassle
Notices have to be filled in advance, through the right channels and with the right protocol
Escorts are easy; in this case it was a couple of ordinary cars signed up and with lots of flashylight bits
For private use this is not practical but it can be done
We get to do it because we are a specialist company
As I said if you don't know how to do it then you shouldn't even be attempting it. Point is it can be done.
Extra group on your licence is worth it. Even if you don't use it commercially it will give you an incite into driving and controlling a different class of vehicle this in turn will give you a different attitude and a different driving tech for smaller vehicles as well
As for the T its registration, plated weight and your driving class restricts you. If you do not comply you may end up in deep doodoo
Maybe I shouldn’t have posted what is possible but I did so just to indicate that it is but only under special circumstances
(RIP) PLANK
21-01-2010, 13:25
No its on little independant arms with typical small trailer wheels. I'd like to change that if possible to something that could take larger wheels, any ideas? :)
I beleive the indespension type hub will take ford or peugeot fitting 4 stud weels straight on, or mini wheels, having said that mini wheels are now like rocking horse p00 and probably worth more than the trailer! but try the others if your can, but bear in mind it won't be able to carry any more weight with bigger wheels as the suspension will be the same.
o' and don't shout if im wrong :doh
Muckypup
21-01-2010, 13:58
"As for the T its registration, plated weight and your driving class restricts you. If you do not comply you may end up in deep doodoo"
To be fair I wasnt planning on towing four ton with my motor, I was just pointing out how daft all the rules are and how some people can get around laws and others cant. This is the same accross the country in every aspect, some folk manage to get easilly out of landing in court, others dont stand a chance.
I was totally oblivious to the fact you cant tow a 3500kgs plated trailer with a lesser rated truck, thank you for pointing that out. It just means that if I need to tow more than my Maverick is rated for I either borrow my mates Rangie, or beyond 3500kgs its the Case CS150 from now on :D
I've towed over ten tonnes (i presume legally again lol) with that beast :naughty
PS - I am always wondering why you see certain folk getting away with a road train of several trailers, or a transit pick-up towing a massive triple axle caravan...
(RIP) PLANK
21-01-2010, 14:12
[QUOTE= PS - I am always wondering why you see certain folk getting away with a road train of several trailers, or a transit pick-up towing a massive triple axle caravan...[/QUOTE]
certain people? people like me? anyway, a transit rruck can legally pull virtualy any caravan on the road, having a train weight of 5000k and obviously when unloaded this gives a huge towing capacity, but lets not get inot LGV towing laws this thread is long enough LOL And fair grund people have showman's licences that allow multiple trailers! It is equaly odd to think we would live in a society that would create laws that would make sections of its citizens daily lives (in and out of working hours) impossible, it would be like making living in a house a criminal offence!
on a lighter note, i go to many livestcok sales and i would argu that 60% of the people there are towing in excess of the capacity of their vehicles, the same goes for many peopel towing mini diggers, road rollers, etc etc. And i have never know anyone get stopped!
there was one landmark case (this is a factual example you may find it on the net) where a delivery driver for a nissan dealership, was stopped for deliveruing a car on atrailer behind a nissan serena, the plod pulled him and he was summoned to court as the trailer put the towing vehicle over the train wieght.
his defence, the treain weight on the vehicle refferd to the van that his 'car' was converted from by Nissan, and so the train weight gross, weight etc did not apply, the case was dissmissed and he won. So work that out? :confused:
I beleive the indespension type hub will take ford or peugeot fitting 4 stud weels straight on, or mini wheels, having said that mini wheels are now like rocking horse p00 and probably worth more than the trailer! but try the others if your can, but bear in mind it won't be able to carry any more weight with bigger wheels as the suspension will be the same.
o' and don't shout if im wrong :doh
LOL
Correct on the weight issue thats why a different axle would be good
And I can find some mini wheels if needed I had forgotten the stud pat was the same
(RIP) PLANK
21-01-2010, 14:48
LOL
Correct on the weight issue thats why a different axle would be good
And I can find some mini wheels if needed I had forgotten the stud pat was the same
if you can find some 10 inch mini wheel fin me one, i have a trailer that needs a spare wheel, and i have a spare 12 inch mini wheel, with a tyre that holds air that i dont need,
or beyond 3500kgs its the Case CS150 from now on :D
I've towed over ten tonnes (i presume legally again lol) with that beast :naughty
That'll do it LOL
Agri laws are different again anyway
PS - I am always wondering why you see certain folk getting away with a road train of several trailers, or a transit pick-up towing a massive triple axle caravan...
As Plank just pointed out a showmans licence gives leave for all sorts including running on tax free fuel
on a lighter note, i go to many livestcok sales and i would argu that 60% of the people there are towing in excess of the capacity of their vehicles, the same goes for many peopel towing mini diggers, road rollers, etc etc. And i have never know anyone get stopped!
Too true and again you can get away with it most of the time if you are sensible and look safe and legal.
there was one landmark case (this is a factual example you may find it on the net) where a delivery driver for a nissan dealership, was stopped for deliveruing a car on atrailer behind a nissan serena, the plod pulled him and he was summoned to court as the trailer put the towing vehicle over the train wieght.
his defence, the treain weight on the vehicle refferd to the van that his 'car' was converted from by Nissan, and so the train weight gross, weight etc did not apply, the case was dissmissed and he won. So work that out? :confused:
I don't know the case but probably Construction and use - specially adapted vehicle
But there have been many cases like that.
As has been said the law is an ass. It is an even bigger load of BS in many cases because the folk that we entrust our law enforcement to often don't know it, understand it or are able to enforce it.
A lot of folk break the law towing unknowingly and quite safely. Trouble is the law has to be there to protect us from complete idiots like the man I saw a few weeks ago pulling a badly loaded tandem axle 3.5 ton trailer behind a Ford focus. :eek::eek:
The trailer was drawbar heavy and having a mind of its own at anything above 35 mph. I passed him out and returning half an hour later I came across him again. Car mashed, trailer on its side in the ditch with the load all over the shop and a number of plod in attendance :lol
zippy656
21-01-2010, 15:14
So can we see the PICS please
if you can find some 10 inch mini wheel fin me one, i have a trailer that needs a spare wheel, and i have a spare 12 inch mini wheel, with a tyre that holds air that i dont need,
Have one odd 10 inch steel you can have if you want it. also have a set of four origonal 'Rosi' style but want $ for them
You can keep the 12 inch though. No good to me someone else may need it
So can we see the PICS please
Don't do pics while I'm drivin :lol
And I sure as well wasn't goin ta stop :D
lacroupade
21-01-2010, 15:53
I have occasionaly been peed off by these 'private escorts'.....particularly when they are on the motorway escorting a wide load that actually isn't very, and on at least two occasions, although nothing even protruded over the third lane and it was a long dead straight, one of the 'escorts' was driving in the outside lane at a steady 30mph or whatever low speed it was, causing the most horrendous tailback, completely preventing any traffic passing.
Clearly they have a job to do, but thinking they can effectively close the motorway by virtue of having an orange flashing light is not the way to do it.:doh
And yes I did get past by nefarious means, muich to the escorts clear frustration....:augie
I stick them in the same pigeon hole as truck drivers who block both lanes in a merge, people who flash their lights at you because you overtake them and CLOGgers. Or even OLOGgers for that matter LOL!:thumbs
I have occasionaly been peed off by these 'private escorts'.....particularly when they are on the motorway escorting a wide load that actually isn't very, and on at least two occasions, although nothing even protruded over the third lane and it was a long dead straight, one of the 'escorts' was driving in the outside lane at a steady 30mph or whatever low speed it was, causing the most horrendous tailback, completely preventing any traffic passing.
Clearly they have a job to do, but thinking they can effectively close the motorway by virtue of having an orange flashing light is not the way to do it.:doh
And yes I did get past by nefarious means, muich to the escorts clear frustration....:augie
I stick them in the same pigeon hole as truck drivers who block both lanes in a merge, people who flash their lights at you because you overtake them and CLOGgers. Or even OLOGgers for that matter LOL!:thumbs
Lol
The government has a job to do as well. And they don't do it very well either
Escort vehicles are often a pain but it isn't because of the laws it is because of the usless jobsworth behind the wheel
If we have an escorted load we use our own drivers. Our drivers are all capable of taking the tow and understand how it is going to behave and what the driver of the tug needs. So they are normally well behaved and we aim to cause as little agro to other drivers as poss. Having said that they are liable to play with you if you are being a bit of a dork and not paying attention :D
All of our loads will fit within the traffic lane. It is mostly legth that causes us a prob going through tight corners and junctions etc. Sometimes getting a long trailer out of Soton can be fun but we try and time it for best traffic conditions
(RIP) PLANK
21-01-2010, 21:24
Have one odd 10 inch steel you can have if you want it. also have a set of four origonal 'Rosi' style but want $ for them
You can keep the 12 inch though. No good to me someone else may need it
I could definately use it, its getting it that might be the problem :confused:
I could definately use it, its getting it that might be the problem :confused:
Don't know where you are,,, central England is a big place:D
So, depending on where you are and how urgent I may be able to help
BTW don't know what the tyre is like I havent looked but even if it looks good i would replace it because it hasn't seen black stuff in a lot of years
You can either PM me where you are or give me a call. All my deets are on my website so I can't hide
Showmen regularly pull loads in excess of allowable train length, over weight, oversize, multiple trailer pulls, etc
Sorry, but this is not true,very few, if any showmans loads exceed allowable length, over weight is covered as is any heavy haulage by STGO and there is nothing wrong with multiple trailer pulls.
As Plank just pointed out a showmans licence gives leave for all sorts including running on tax free fuel
Again totally untrue !! I assume that when you say "a showmans licence" you are taliking about the road tax, if so then the rules regarding getting a vehicle registered as a "showmans special" are very strict and now Vosa require written proof at the side of the road that showmen are actually paid up members of a bona fida organisation with regard to the legality of their vehicle.
As for the tax free fuel, the only time red diesel can be used is in the generators, ALL road going vehicles must have white diesel in use and the penaltys for non compliance are the same for all.
cheers
Steve
(RIP) PLANK
21-01-2010, 23:42
Showmen regularly pull loads in excess of allowable train length, over weight, oversize, multiple trailer pulls, etc
Sorry, but this is not true,very few, if any showmans loads exceed allowable length, over weight is covered as is any heavy haulage by STGO and there is nothing wrong with multiple trailer pulls.
As Plank just pointed out a showmans licence gives leave for all sorts including running on tax free fuel
Again totally untrue !! I assume that when you say "a showmans licence" you are taliking about the road tax, if so then the rules regarding getting a vehicle registered as a "showmans special" are very strict and now Vosa require written proof at the side of the road that showmen are actually paid up members of a bona fida organisation with regard to the legality of their vehicle.
As for the tax free fuel, the only time red diesel can be used is in the generators, ALL road going vehicles must have white diesel in use and the penaltys for non compliance are the same for all.
cheers
Steve
sorry i am a bit lost ae you saying my comments are totaly untrue?
Showmen regularly pull loads in excess of allowable train length, over weight, oversize, multiple trailer pulls, etc
Sorry, but this is not true,very few, if any showmans loads exceed allowable length, over weight is covered as is any heavy haulage by STGO and there is nothing wrong with multiple trailer pulls.
As Plank just pointed out a showmans licence gives leave for all sorts including running on tax free fuel
Again totally untrue !! I assume that when you say "a showmans licence" you are taliking about the road tax, if so then the rules regarding getting a vehicle registered as a "showmans special" are very strict and now Vosa require written proof at the side of the road that showmen are actually paid up members of a bona fida organisation with regard to the legality of their vehicle.
As for the tax free fuel, the only time red diesel can be used is in the generators, ALL road going vehicles must have white diesel in use and the penaltys for non compliance are the same for all.
cheers
Steve
regarding the diesel steve, tractors, jcb's etc, drive on the road, but they use red diesel, because they are classed as plant, and dont have to run on white,
showmans licence, this exempts the holder from having to have a operaters licence, and must have living quarters fitted, also, he must prove he is in the showmans circle. the vehicle must have multi purpose use aswell.
a very tricky law i reckon.:doh
Muckypup
22-01-2010, 11:48
Im sorry but I agree with Steve on the fuel issue!!!!!
The law is very clear on red diesel ITS NOT ROAD FUEL! You cannot even run tractors on red diesel on the road! Be it a JCB, Fast-Trac or anything.
The rules are clear, if you are taking your tractor on a road then you must not be more than two miles away from your base with red fuel in your tank. This is a big issue at the moment for agricultural contractors and many are finding themselves in court for exactly that...
Regarding the comment below i made earlier :
"PS - I am always wondering why you see certain folk getting away with a road train of several trailers, or a transit pick-up towing a massive triple axle caravan..."
Thanks for your explination PLANK, it was a question really, how is it i see some people getting away with towing a road train?
As far as I was aware road-trains of any type are not allowed therefore multipule trailers are un-lawful, no matter what business you are in. If there is a showman's license that allows this then that would be the answer to my question.
Regarding what you said about Transit trucks and towing caravans...
I HAVE A TRANSIT TRUCK WITH TOWING KIT. Are you telling me I can tow more with the Transit than my Maverick? As far as I was aware they both had the same towing rating as each other - 2800kgs :confused:
(RIP) PLANK
22-01-2010, 14:27
I think, not the think! that the licence that alows the towing of multiple trailers, is a historical thing, it dates from when such things were allowd on our roads, and people who towed them were allowed to carry on doing so, and still are for reasons of historical authenticty. Rather like a Balti house being able to employ only it's chosen racial group despit the race ralations act (and its amendments) for reaons of authenticity. I do not beleive it would be permitted to build a new fairground ride that would need multiple trailers.
There are very very few, triple axle caravans in the UK Most being custom made by a man called Dan sullivan, and they are all less than 2800k despite their size. Though i am not suggesting every one who tows, does it legally, as we have proved in this thread it is a very, very grey area.
but bear in mind many of our laws are fairly new, i believe you could still have a passenger in a caravan until the early 80's? and the law which banned passengers in a trailer also stopped bendy-buses being legal in the UK, yet a decade later and we have them on city streets? none of it makes much snese at all, to me or any of us by the look of it!
Muckypup
22-01-2010, 16:28
Damn right it dont make sense, but hell if theres a law new, old or for historical/authenticity purposes that can be taken advantage of then im all for it :thumb2
Its a shame farmers cant do the same. How much easier it would be at silage time if we could pull multiple carting trailers lol! :naughty
(RIP) PLANK
22-01-2010, 17:44
i think its more a case of the pople who have the licence for multiple trailers are all geting pretty old, and when they have gone there will be no more!
in much the same way as pre 97 test gives you automatic B+E and when all those that passed their test pre 97 have gone there will be no more.
Hi guys,
probably because it was late when I posted, I didn't make it very clear, I was refering to showmans vehicles when I said that it was white diesel only.
Regarding multiple trailers, the biggest reason you don't really see them much now on fairground loads is because rides are now more compact with hydraulic fold up,down,in,out parts.even a set of dodgems can be one one fold out artic trailer. The first rule is that the prime mover can only carry generators, yes I know the modern artic ones usually have a small trailer on the back, but the unit doesnt carry a load just a generator behind the cab ! A bit of a grey area there ! Then it goes something like the first trailer must not be more than 33 feet long and the second trailer no more than 30 feet long, totoal length must not exceed 85 feet, thats what it was last time I had a load like that, it may have changed a bit but I don't think so.
Added to this the train weight of the prime mover is still the governing factor,by the time you take the unladen weight of the unit and generators etc, then the unladen weight of the trailers it would be uneconomic in the world of road haulage.No generators but you would need to have some sort of ballast on the prime mover for traction.
Old rides are bulky but not heavy and the space needed to rack everything out to protect paint etc is why there were always loads of trailers.
The truth is that the basic laws for these things dates back to steam traction engine times.
A vehicle registered as a "showmans special " is mot exempt on the grounds that it is untestable, much the same as some recovery vehicles, but ther vehicle has to be in a roadworthy condition as defined by Vosa, a roadside pull could end up with a cherished (not) GV9 or whatever the new name for it is, LG9?
On a lighter note roadtrains can be good fun to drive, golden rule is to make sure you know where you are going, reversing can be a tad awkward !!!!!
cheers
Steve
Member of the Society of Independant Roundabout Proprietors
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