4x4 response

[zippy656]

well, just back from a little trip for 4x4 responce.. only 59 miles this time,.

monday was over 100 miles.

[makeitfit]

Well done Zippy:thumb2
I've just joined the welsh 4x4 response:D
Off on a training weekend in Llandovery in a couple of weeks:naughty

[zippy656]

its great fun.. out in the snow..


oh, and just remember wheels ment to be DOWN

[Deleted account DD]

So are you inspired by public spirited generosity or a desire to go out when most are told to stay at home :confused:

Serious question, I've often wondered (as one who is paid to be out in all sorts at all times :D and has no choice ) and never got a straight answer ;)

[zippy656]

come on, when do us boy do as we are told!

for me its giveing some thing BACK..

[tezzer]

who pays for the fuel then??? zippy

[makeitfit]

So are you inspired by public spirited generosity or a desire to go out when most are told to stay at home :confused:

Serious question, I've often wondered (as one who is paid to be out in all sorts at all times :D and has no choice ) and never got a straight answer ;)

I've been on mercy missions most of the week anyway, so might aswell get some driver training into the bargain:sly
But primarily to boldly go were no man has gone before and get loads of bar stories:naughty
Oh and to wind up plod:lol:lol:lol

[zippy656]

who pays for the fuel then??? zippy


you get that back .40p a mile i think it is..

[BongoBerry]

SE4x4R currently needs your help too, keeping the communications flowing to help others costs

So dig deep :)

http://southeast4x4response.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1883

[lacroupade]

Well done Zippy:thumb2
I've just joined the welsh 4x4 response:D
Off on a training weekend in Llandovery in a couple of weeks:naughty

Oh god.

[zippy656]

theyll not know whats hit them...

[lacroupade]

come on, when do us boy do as we are told!

for me its giveing some thing BACK..

what have you been nicking then ZippY? :eek:

[zippy656]

back in life,

silly boy..

[dinky]

Been out 4 times two 6am ,1x6pm and 1at8pm done about 250 miles altogether,enjoyed the driving and helping out.

[jims-terrano]

Have been talking to the Policeman who lives next door this afternoon. As we were chatting I mentioned that I'm on standby for RAYNET. He simply replied "oh you'll be parking on top of a hill and talking nonsense on your radio then". He says that all volunteer services provide nothing that they can't do for them selves. No point going any further with this guy but at the end of the day my standby is because in the first instance WY Police started the ball rolling closely followed by PCT. He says all this rubbish on the news about 4x4 drivers helping out is silly because we don't have the same training as profesionals and we are more likely to cause a problem than resolve them. I replied back and informed him that's possibly why groups like 4x4 response and RAYNET are in the emergency plans.
It's such a shame that people like us who are prepared to get off our back sides to assist others are not given more recognition.

Jim T

[lacroupade]

Have been talking to the Policeman who lives next door this afternoon. As we were chatting I mentioned that I'm on standby for RAYNET. He simply replied "oh you'll be parking on top of a hill and talking nonsense on your radio then". He says that all volunteer services provide nothing that they can't do for them selves. No point going any further with this guy but at the end of the day my standby is because in the first instance WY Police started the ball rolling closely followed by PCT. He says all this rubbish on the news about 4x4 drivers helping out is silly because we don't have the same training as profesionals and we are more likely to cause a problem than resolve them. I replied back and informed him that's possibly why groups like 4x4 response and RAYNET are in the emergency plans.
It's such a shame that people like us who are prepared to get off our back sides to assist others are not given more recognition.

Jim T

Sure he's not just a traffic warden? Sounds like a right knob.:p

[Deleted account DD]

Have been talking to the Policeman who lives next door this afternoon. As we were chatting I mentioned that I'm on standby for RAYNET. He simply replied "oh you'll be parking on top of a hill and talking nonsense on your radio then". He says that all volunteer services provide nothing that they can't do for them selves. No point going any further with this guy but at the end of the day my standby is because in the first instance WY Police started the ball rolling closely followed by PCT. He says all this rubbish on the news about 4x4 drivers helping out is silly because we don't have the same training as profesionals and we are more likely to cause a problem than resolve them. I replied back and informed him that's possibly why groups like 4x4 response and RAYNET are in the emergency plans.
It's such a shame that people like us who are prepared to get off our back sides to assist others are not given more recognition.

Jim T

He doesnt understand, you'll have to forgive him :lol you'll probably find its all gone strategic/gold irrespective of wether they are permanently sitting or just keeping a watching brief.

Most areas have had at least dedicated tactical/silver open for a while now.

Tell him to join on here and I'll supply him with the contact details for the dept who write and administrate the emergency/contingency plans which incorporate the voluntary sector in his force. I know them some of them well and was down there about 3 months ago

Its also a statutory requirement for local authorities to involve/inform the VA's.

All on here http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ukresilience/preparedness/ccact.aspx

As a Cat 1 responder and TAC advisor I've got the guidance on my desk , what an anorak eh :rolleyes:

[Terranoman]

Well you can reply to him that this 4x4 response member will be conducting the training for his local Fire and rescue service as they don't have trained personnel themselves and that Northants 4x4 RT have been moving fire service personnel around the county.

Why are some coppers like this?

If they don't need the voluntary sector why did the RNLI have to be called to search for the police offer who got swept away when the bridge collapsed in Cumbria? Surely they could have done that themselves?

I work for the Fire service and we call upon the Red Cross upto 10 time PER DAY!!! and we could not do with out them.

Lets hope he gets his car stuck in a drift and has to ask you to pull him out:clap:clap

Rant over LOL

[ocelot]

I'm a member of 4x4 response, spent a few days out with North Wales Police based at both Mold and Buckley stations........... did a fair few miles and a number of jobs, the police could not move without 4x4 R involvement whatsoever, their cars were, through their own regulations, grounded. Given the general conditions, especially on higher ground, only a 4x4 would have made the trip. I did works which encompassed taking arrestee's to the nick, towing stuck ambulances and moving officers around the division.
The police were positive, helpful, appreciative and in favour of voluntary groups getting involved. we were all made very welcome and never made to feel like we were just there under sufferance.......

4x4R drivers are all to some degree vetted, CRB etc, achieve a given standard of training, undergo assessments and in general, become part of a team which serves the general public in times like these.

To answer DaveD's question, I can only speak for myself, I believe that I should contribute to my community positively and use my resources for the common good when appropriate. Whether that's at sea as part of a rescue package, or via 4x4 response or even if I encounter a situation when I'm out and about where my resource can make the situation better, then all to the good.

Others, well, some walk or drive by, some are unable to help, a few, and I think it's too few, are willing to expend time, effort and resource to help someone.

[davemud]

Hi Ya guys
we at www.Southeast4x4response.ork.uk (http://www.Southeast4x4response.ork.uk) http://www.southeast4x4response.org.uk/ have been out for the past 5 days upto 50 members at a time
We even had a comand post set up at 1 south east hospitals manned 24rhs
as no staff were able to get in or our with out 4x4 assistance we were even
moving patients to free up bed space
We have a had 4x4 stationed in bad place along routes used buy Ambulances
to asist when and if they get into truble
its been a busy time for us down hear.

[zippy656]

Hi Dave, we have just been stood down in our area for 4x4R are you still on call??

sounlds like you been busy busy..

[Deleted account DD]

dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?

[ocelot]

dave, do you put a rep into silver ? if so whose ? how are you directed ?


not sure if this is directed towards me, but, I have a contact directly with north wales police who contacts me on a regular basis on a wider scope of issues, I'm also one of the regional team leaders for CRAG ( www.crag-uk.org ) and have a role in directing rights of way issues in north wales as well as local authority input...........

On the 4x4R front, the coordinator for us is based in mid wales, I'd imagine that many others on here know Mark Margettts. He is also the bloke behind 'Tread Lightly' .

Resources are directed as requested by the various forces, red cross etc........ by the 4x4 response regional control.

[Deleted account DD]

It was originally directed at davemud but thanks :thumb2

I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources.

Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go :D

Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry.

The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners :eek:

Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

[iansjones]

heres a question.
When on 4x4 response how are you covered insurance wise?

[zippy656]

you have to talk to your own insurance for road work, but public liability is covered under the 4x4 response insurance.

[davemud]

You are covered by your normal car insurance there is a form u have to
send to the insurance company and they stamp to say you are covered

You don't require business cover as you are not transporting people for
hire or reward its all Voluntary work and yes you are allowed to revive
payment for mileage allowances

All the regional groups operate under the National 4x4 response Public liability Policy
and agree to a set minimum standard of requirements.

David

I was one of two on-site controller working with the Hospital Emergency Planing Officer and the Council EPO
we do have some MOU but we had to adjust the procedure to include new request because of the
unprecedented level of requests, all our drivers our instructed to only cover thing they are comfortable with
and decline if they feel the request is to much, and we will then appoint a suitably trained driver and vehicle.

[Terranosaurus]

Insurance wise a lot a lot depends on the precise details of the MOU/SLA in place. Some put the responsibility on the user service to provide full insurance cover

From a SLA in place between one group and a Constabulary.

3 XYZ AGREE TO:

3.1.....
3.2.....
3.3.....

3.4
Provide full public liability insurance cover and car insurance to ABC 4x4 Response personnel whilst they are deployed in assisting XYZ.

3.5
Provide individual personal accident/death insurance cover to ABC 4x4 Response personnel whilst they are deployed in assisting XYZ.

[ocelot]

It was originally directed at davemud but thanks :thumb2

I was wondering how your effort is directly co ordinated, who takes responsibility for risk assessing (no I'm not an h&s beast) bearing in mind liability whilst requesting or requiring resources.

Also who in your organisation takes overall responsibility for co ordination and advice at the tactical level? operational , no problem , you trundle off where you are asked to go :D

Do you work to an mou? (they're not legally binding but can be referred to at any enquiry.

The one bit about this that has leapt out at me isn't the humanitarian bits, I can see how those requirements will override many normal considerations but .....transporting prisoners :eek:

Bit of a problem with that one, first off all risk from them, health, cleanliness and not least violence within your vehicle. Secondly , bit of a conundrum really, if they're violent, or committing crimes of a level that require immediate dealing with , I cant see a terrano being the proper vehicle vehicle for that. if theyre bot in the above category do they really need arresting and transporting when you balance the risks? Legislation now covers a requirement to consider do they really need arresting or can they be dealt with buy other means.

transporting prisoners only with officers present, bear in mind that many 4x4R drivers are ex mod, trained to a high standard and only with a risk assessment in place, carried out by the driver and officers concerned.
Insurance is covered by 4x4R and also in this instance, my own class 1 commercial use......... terrano is no different from a ford focus wrt health and cleanliness, as for the need for arrest, the main criteria is risk of injury to others if the job is not done..........

[Deleted account DD]

transporting prisoners only with officers present, bear in mind that many 4x4R drivers are ex mod, trained to a high standard

Not really relevant I'm afraid :nenau


terrano is no different from a ford focus wrt health and cleanliness

Thats why for all but the lowest cleanest grade prisoner movement we have vans.

If the criteria applies that the only option is to arrest and remove a person they are in a situation where I WOULD NOT and more to the point HAVE NEVER moved such a prisoner by Ford Focus. They are going to be stressed and potentially hostile although it may not show.

I and others have fallen foul of that and lived (after a couple of ops and a lot of sickness time) to tell the tale, others have not.

A colleague form a neighbouring force was killed by an arsehole he was transporting and graded as low risk who decided it would be a hoot if he made it to and applied the handbrake whilst travelling at speed. He should have been in a van.

I have seen initially compliant and restrained prisoners kick out transit van rear doors on more than one occasion. I have dealt with prisoners who started off calm and by the end of the journey refused to come out of the van and took on all comers....more than once!

You used to always be able to tell an ex police van because unlike builders transits, the dents in the side were from the inside pushing outwards.

I have also seen a prisoner who pissed themsleves deliberately in the back of a fiesta. They were "hello mate" and "yeah no sweat lets get this sorted" at the start.

There is no such thing as a fully compliant and predictable prisoner.

We all make mistakes at the start but no one seems to learn from them :(

I really do struggle with this one, ie effectively involving the untrained public in jobs with real risk. I dont doubt your motives but I really do believe that the local force has it wrong. The frequency of serious incidents with damage and injury occurring may be low but it happen regularly and only takes one to kill you. Your not joining in at the lower level. The prisoners you describe are potentially up there...thats why theyre being moved :nenau

Remember, and theres several members on here will tell you ;) just cos the cop says, it doesnt mean its right.

[Deleted account DD]

Insurance wise a lot a lot depends on the precise details of the MOU/SLA in place. Some put the responsibility on the user service to provide full insurance cover

From a SLA in place between one group and a Constabulary.

:thumb2 ta, are you aware they are NOT legally binding :confused: most actually start with words to the effect of "this is not legally binding document" :nenau

[Deleted account DD]

I was one of two on-site controller working with the Hospital Emergency Planing Officer and the Council EPO
we do have some MOU but we had to adjust the procedure to include new request because of the
unprecedented level of requests, all our drivers our instructed to only cover thing they are comfortable with
and decline if they feel the request is to much, and we will then appoint a suitably trained driver and vehicle.

Ta Dave :thumb2 where were the epo's ? did you sit on a multi agency group or "a medical" one ? How did it link into the mutli agency police chaired silver?

Sorry for all of the questions but I am genuinely interested and its always better to get the info from those involved rather than subsequent reports which can sometimes turn a clusterfcuk into a triumph :thumb2

We had ambo open at gold but the rest of us were on a watching brief.

pls pm or email if you dont want to post in an open forum.

[zippy656]

on TV


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pyl8d/Inside_Out_West_11_01_2010/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pyl8d/Inside_Out_West_11_01_2010/)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

[makeitfit]

Classic green oval error as that disco meets an embarassing snow drift :lol:lol

[zippy656]

was only a little snow as well

[Deleted account DD]

Interesting and commendable stuff :thumb2

Good job the guy in the audi has an orange beacon and a high viz jkt, wouldnt have made it through otherwise :augie

Nice one handed style of arm resting driving in adverse conditions and he's an instructor :augie......hmmmmmm.

[makeitfit]

Interesting and commendable stuff :thumb2

Good job the guy in the audi has an orange beacon and a high viz jkt, wouldnt have made it through otherwise :augie

Nice one handed style of arm resting driving in adverse conditions and he's an instructor :augie......hmmmmmm.

Yes I thought that, and on TV too:doh
I (almost) bumped into another disco tonight strugling with a bit of snow:augie
To be fair he was trying to avoid some planks van abandoned in the ditch and half covered in snow. Trouble was then he got his wheels in the other ditch:doh
Anyway we got it sorted easy enough only to find a dirty great truck coming out of the snow drift we'd been fighting through:eek:
He had one of those things for digging telegraph poles into the ground , you know , a sort of thunderbird 4 mole thing:lol
He was out the back of the truck putting this hydraulic arm onto the ground and pushing himself up the snow drift a metre at a time:sly Determined or what, I reckon he must be on a promise tonight:lol
So it took me about an hour to do three miles from disco to the pub:D

[(RIP) PLANK]

Yes I thought that, and on TV too:doh
I (almost) bumped into another disco tonight strugling with a bit of snow:augie
To be fair he was trying to avoid some planks van abandoned in the ditch and half covered in snow. Trouble was then he got his wheels in the other ditch:doh
Anyway we got it sorted easy enough only to find a dirty great truck coming out of the snow drift we'd been fighting through:eek:
He had one of those things for digging telegraph poles into the ground , you know , a sort of thunderbird 4 mole thing:lol
He was out the back of the truck putting this hydraulic arm onto the ground and pushing himself up the snow drift a metre at a time:sly Determined or what, I reckon he must be on a promise tonight:lol
So it took me about an hour to do three miles from disco to the pub:D

i have an alibi :o

[jims-terrano]

Nice crack in the Audi windscreen, still on the brightside that pier will be finished for summer:lol:lol

Served that Disco right the way he over took:D

Jim T

PS RAYNET here in West Yorkshire are still getting enquiries from the Police to check our availability but no call out's yet.

[ocelot]

Not really relevant I'm afraid :nenau




Thats why for all but the lowest cleanest grade prisoner movement we have vans.

If the criteria applies that the only option is to arrest and remove a person they are in a situation where I WOULD NOT and more to the point HAVE NEVER moved such a prisoner by Ford Focus. They are going to be stressed and potentially hostile although it may not show.

I and others have fallen foul of that and lived (after a couple of ops and a lot of sickness time) to tell the tale, others have not.

A colleague form a neighbouring force was killed by an arsehole he was transporting and graded as low risk who decided it would be a hoot if he made it to and applied the handbrake whilst travelling at speed. He should have been in a van.

I have seen initially compliant and restrained prisoners kick out transit van rear doors on more than one occasion. I have dealt with prisoners who started off calm and by the end of the journey refused to come out of the van and took on all comers....more than once!

You used to always be able to tell an ex police van because unlike builders transits, the dents in the side were from the inside pushing outwards.

I have also seen a prisoner who pissed themsleves deliberately in the back of a fiesta. They were "hello mate" and "yeah no sweat lets get this sorted" at the start.

There is no such thing as a fully compliant and predictable prisoner.

We all make mistakes at the start but no one seems to learn from them :(

I really do struggle with this one, ie effectively involving the untrained public in jobs with real risk. I dont doubt your motives but I really do believe that the local force has it wrong. The frequency of serious incidents with damage and injury occurring may be low but it happen regularly and only takes one to kill you. Your not joining in at the lower level. The prisoners you describe are potentially up there...thats why theyre being moved :nenau

Remember, and theres several members on here will tell you ;) just cos the cop says, it doesnt mean its right.

ok, I'm not going to reveal too much about myself on here, sufficient to say DaveD, I worked for the home office and other agencies for a long time and retain a warrant card. I'm not really 'untrained public.
The officers concerned were aware of this as were the management (at my request and with the permission of those I work for).
Given that NW Police had no suitable vehicles available and given my unusual credentials, experience and career, the risk assessment which was carried out, met and exceeded the current standard. Is that a sufficient explanation? My main area of works concern the coastguard these days but often Customs etc....... I'd rather not divulge any more information if that's ok.

[(RIP) PLANK]

this is al geting a bit ))& isint it, i put the caps lock on deliberatley for all your spooks to break the code :thumbs

just for the record, it wasn't me it was my mate!:lol

[lacroupade]

this is al geting a bit ))& isint it, i put the caps lock on deliberatley for all your spooks to break the code :thumbs

just for the record, it wasn't me it was my mate!:lol...

[Darwin]

ok, I'm not going to reveal too much about myself on here, sufficient to say DaveD, I worked for the home office and other agencies for a long time and retain a warrant card. I'm not really 'untrained public.
The officers concerned were aware of this as were the management (at my request and with the permission of those I work for).
Given that NW Police had no suitable vehicles available and given my unusual credentials, experience and career, the risk assessment which was carried out, met and exceeded the current standard. Is that a sufficient explanation? My main area of works concern the coastguard these days but often Customs etc....... I'd rather not divulge any more information if that's ok.

Queue 007 Music. ;)

My only claim to fame is I have signed the Official Secrets Act , which actually means bugger all as we are all obliged to follow it anyway.

[zippy656]

I play Thunderbirds music..


FAB Brains

[Deleted account DD]

this is al geting a bit ))& isint it, i put the caps lock on deliberatley for all your spooks to break the code :thumbs

just for the record, it wasn't me it was my mate!:lol

pmsl are you sure it wasnt the ones who actually check what you have been looking at and are looking at on line? :D

[(RIP) PLANK]

pmsl are you sure it wasnt the ones who actually check what you have been looking at and are looking at on line? :D

interesting and humourous, but your abreviations are wasted on me, i just dont understand them at all ;) pmsl?

[Deleted account DD]

interesting and humourous, but your abreviations are wasted on me, i just dont understand them at all ;) pmsl?

pissing myself laughing. I found ocelots reply and the subsequent comments highly amusing :lol:lol:lol:lol

[(RIP) PLANK]

pissing myself laughing. I found ocelots reply and the subsequent comments highly amusing :lol:lol:lol:lol


well i'm not good with acts or secrets either, i tend to take life a little less seriously ;) i'm off to open a bottle of Shiraz, Hungarian, but then what can you expect for £2.99? at least i wont have to find the cork screw :thumbs

[Deleted account DD]

well i'm not good with acts or secrets either, i tend to take life a little less seriously ;) i'm off to open a bottle of Shiraz, Hungarian, but then what can you expect for £2.99? at least i wont have to find the cork screw :thumbs

Enjoy :thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

Right, just got in from work , made a short response to this from my phone browser, no idea where that's gone :rolleyes: but I'll just restate a couple of points, I have a significant real time interest in this subject and I have no doubts or problems with the motivation and morals of the majority of participants. My concerns are entirely professional and actually tend towards protecting the 4x4 brigade.

Ocelot, you have missed the point completely and I do wonder the motives of semi disclosing your background whatever the context unless its to (drum roll) give an air of mystery and suspense :confused:

A warrant card as you describe yourself holding and they used to be called is effectively a public document, its not secret, it is meant to be produced to identify you and accredit your powers ie what you are warranted by the relevant official bodies to do. Most, even at the highest clearance levels are happy to say what they do just no details of the parts that require clearance. eg I'm an electronics technician working on a confidential project. I actually had a friend who did that for a living. Programming systems on helicopter anti sub missiles. Never knew where he was working or the details of it.

Thats what puzzles me about your semi disclosure, its all over the place.

The reason behind vetting, checking out or security clearance. whatever term you choose is far from an exclusive club.Theres loads of us around and the levels range from a basic voluntary check way way up the scale where they know all sorts (friend of mine had a very interesting chat with the checking officer from London about his internet viewing habits :lol:lol:lol so he says anyway ;) ) What security clearance serves to do is demonstrate at a certain time you are unlikely to be dishonest or corrupt not open to coercion. Most official or state employees have also signed the official secrets act too.

Pretty boring stuff really........no very boring actually (ps for any hackers or moles out there theres no graded docs on this machine at all :D)

Now what does that prove as far as 4x4 response goes?

Very little actually.

The main point , and it is a good one, is that you are unlikely to disclose information inappropriately. eg someone transporting a care worker around is unlikely to later sell a list of all vulnerable folk to Billy Burglar.

So how do individuals carrying out voluntary work in 4x4s get "clearance". Mountain rescue are probably a good example. Part of the agreement up here that brings them in under the Health working umbrella is that each person on duty has been vetted and cleared. Thats why a lot of areas politely decline some volunteers.

Now the original point which Ocelot missed.

Depending on what your "warrant card" is and in the absence of up to date qualifications in several areas up to date you are in certain elements of training you probably are an untrained member of the public. More world wise, demonstrated integrity, maybe previously qualified but in modern accountable terms still an untrained member of the public.

Therfore carrying prisoners in circumstances an officer would not is what I have a problem with. Risk assesed yes, but the hazard remains at all times (look at the example I gave) and is very real. One persons risk assesment does not mean other qualified people agree. If it is essential a prisoner is transported it is unlikely they are suitable for transport by car. If they are at a level suitable for transport by car, legislation as well as common sense guides towards being dealt with by other means.

Some police services have failed in several forseeable areas under common law and statutory guidlines. Using your goodwill and enthusiasm is an ongoing sticking plaster fix. Like a sticking plaster it will fall off at some point. Thats when , maybe not you in your world but more "normal" people if they live to tell the tale could find themselves in worrying situations.

Things you may be asked at the subsequent enquiry,

"When was you last pst qualification?
when were you last first aid trained to standard?
when did you last do your driving course? have you got an accredited 4x4 qualification?
Can I have a look at the policy/decision log directing your operational activities?...............
I mean after all Mr Volunteer you were carrying out the role during a police operation of a police driver and that is the least they are qualified to"

Theyre just a few of the questions I would ask you, I suspect I wouldnt like to be trying to find the answers either. I strongly suspect silence may follow those questions.

This is nothing personal and as I said I admire the motives of most.

:thumb2







ps I would love to see the risk assessment that says no one will kick , piss or puke in your car.:rolleyes:

or push needles right into the rear cushion (yes they can do it whilst cuffed) so they slowly work their way back out :( honestly, things like that are what concern me.

[makeitfit]

Ha Ha mr crim going to get a rough ride in my truck :augie
I've got no back seats :lol
Do you think H&S will let me cable tie him to a roll cage:naughty
If he's still kicking off I'll roll the sod:cool:
4x4 response I think I like :sly

[Deleted account DD]

Ha Ha mr crim going to get a rough ride in my truck :augie
I've got no back seats :lol
Do you think H&S will let me cable tie him to a roll cage:naughty
If he's still kicking off I'll roll the sod:cool:
4x4 response I think I like :sly


Tbh honest I think some may see it as a good scheme :lol:lol:lol:lol

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

well this is all very enlightening. cheers DaveD for real world insight. was toying
with joining up, but along with those comments posted by JimT ref his neighbour
starting to think why bother.

Putting our family pride and joy on firing line to help out organisations that dont
appreciate your actions, ok maybe those you work with directly or not but hey
these bodies have literally bottom less pots which they could employ 4x4s of
their own but save money so we can come along and bail em out at our expense
and risk, frankly 40p per mile is hardly compo for when it goes wrong.

further being away from my family with sole vehicle and whos gonna replace that
when something hits the fan. frankly its a bit like joe public isnt slipping and
sliding around. we spent 5k on the troll and most of them spent alot more on
some stupid sports car or saloon, pays your money and all that.

ok if i come across a some one really stuck in an emergency i'll help out if safe
to do so having performed a quick risk assessment on an ad hoc basis but
otherwise this truck is for my family thats why we saved for it and cant see any
one of these bodies recipricating for me and tugging our caravan when the troll
is off the road.

good luck guys, hope you dont think i'm selfish, i really respect what you are
doing and hope your loved ones enjoy it as much as you but its just not for me.

[Deleted account DD]

I hope youre not classing me in with Jims neighbour!!!!!!! I offered to put him right!

I have A LOT of dealings with voluntarey agencies and have a lot of respect for them.

[Liam]

Ok,slightly off topic but also concerns volunteers. Here in the Emerald Isle our Health Service is in tatters so hospitals are stuck for funding for equipment,along comes Joe Public whose son/daughter is need of such equipment. Being a good person ,he organises fund raising for much needed equipment ,which is then bought and given to hospital to save lives and saves Government spending cash on such equipment. Good scheme? Yes,hospital gets equipment but fundraisers get VAT bill of 21% from revenue for their efforts. All money raised has been donated by taxpayers who already paid tax on same cash. Is it the same in the UK?:(:(

[Deleted account DD]

Jim, theres nothing wrong with volunteering and joining the 4x4 just make sure that everything is covered :thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

Ok,slightly off topic but also concerns volunteers. Here in the Emerald Isle our Health Service is in tatters so hospitals are stuck for funding for equipment,along comes Joe Public whose son/daughter is need of such equipment. Being a good person ,he organises fund raising for much needed equipment ,which is then bought and given to hospital to save lives and saves Government spending cash on such equipment. Good scheme? Yes,hospital gets equipment but fundraisers get VAT bill of 21% from revenue for their efforts. All money raised has been donated by taxpayers who already paid tax on same cash. Is it the same in the UK?:(:(

That is disgraceful And funnily enough far from way off topic.

Top marks to them but theres no reason why fundraisers should have to buy equipment for official bodies. If they do buy kit it should be lcd teles, stereos and other non essentials that public money cant be expected to cover.

It is exactly the same failing as the one why dont police forces have some 4x4s ? its not as if theyre like snowploughs and cant be used for 8 months of the year.

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

I hope youre not classing me in with Jims neighbour!!!!!!! I offered to put him right!

I have A LOT of dealings with voluntarey agencies and have a lot of respect for them.

nope, but value your down to earth honest opinion, like you know previously, Jims
neighbour sounds an arse but frankly shows that there is some negative opinion
on the inside of the agencies too.

stated my respect, would likely contribute to their fund raising though cynically like
most charitable collections you tend to feel that its letting some other body ie the
taxpayer off the hook.

if we had a second vehicle and i could commit to the time ie didnt need existing
salary and would want to be a volunteer then would be a good cause just not
on my circumstances currently.

ive done vlunteer work before, a driver on world student games in 91 in sheffield
but didnt use my car, ithink this is the crux of the matter using your own hardware
after all other charitable groups rnli, mountain rescue have their own gear.

your comments about prisoners is frankly a wake up call. my own family have to use
this car as well.

[Darwin]

I think for some its a good idea however its not something that floats my boat.

As a ''Crim'';) unlikley they would let me join anyway , TBH that film showed me all I wanted to know and gave me more reasons not to join than join.

They seem (at least the ones on the film) seem to be the same type that wants to be a Police special , there are prob some good ones but all that I have met have been lacking in certain skills.

[(RIP) PLANK]

theword volunteer is banded about quite freely in all this and in voluntary agencies in general.

A couple of years ago i completed and MA in voluntary sector organisations policy and practice, a bit of a mouth full, but i heleped develope the course and so sat in and did it as a guinea pig

now, i have been through this many times to try and establish a working defiinition and its not a simple one

What is a Volunteer?

and dont say some one who isn't paid as its obvious and wrong!

P.S. I agrree with TT2 on this!

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

plank, my normal def of a volunteer at least at work is

"someone who doesnt understand the question"

just kidding, i think

[Deleted account DD]

your comments about prisoners is frankly a wake up call. my own family have to use
this car as well.

Thanks Jim :thumb2 I mentioned this thread to my missus and the first thing she said was needles, drugs and damage. Honestly mate in earlier days I worked on a double crewed lock up van. Its the prefered method for moving any prisoner. I saw allsorts.

On the subject of needles and what have you I know I searched the van coming on shift and I searched it after every prisoner as youre supposed to do. The things and the places a cuffed prisoner can stash stuff in a transit are amazing.

Our vehicles (which i dont use anymore ;) ) now have easy clean, reinforced, no hidden ledges plastic "cells" in them for all the reasons I've mentioned, We also tried moulded linings and plastic seats in Ford Focus's. Dont know what the result of those were.

[Deleted account DD]

theword
What is a Volunteer?




Good question :D

[(RIP) PLANK]

plank, my normal def of a volunteer at least at work is

"someone who doesnt understand the question"

just kidding, i think


as good an answer as any i have found :thumb2

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Thanks Jim :thumb2 I mentioned this thread to my missus and the first thing she said was needles, drugs and damage. Honestly mate in earlier days I worked on a double crewed lock up van. Its the prefered method for moving any prisoner. I saw allsorts.

On the subject of needles and what have you I know I searched the van coming on shift and I searched it after every prisoner as youre supposed to do. The things and the places a cuffed prisoner can stash stuff in a transit are amazing.

Our vehicles (which i dont use anymore ;) ) now have easy clean, reinforced, no hidden ledges plastic "cells" in them for all the reasons I've mentioned, We also tried moulded linings and plastic seats in Ford Focus's. Dont know what the result of those were.

Can apprecate this knowing what shit we used to find on the buses at sweeping off
time. hard to believe that these lovely people would stuff syringes down side of seats.
few close shaves when only seed needle at last minute.

[jims-terrano]

Thanks Jim :thumb2 I mentioned this thread to my missus and the first thing she said was needles, drugs and damage. Honestly mate in earlier days I worked on a double crewed lock up van. Its the prefered method for moving any prisoner. I saw allsorts.


Bog off Dave, it wasn't me:lol:lol

Have to say I doubt that the occasion would ever arrise with me but I would point blank refuse to transport prisoners:eek: I don't mind nurses tho;)

Jim T

[jims-terrano]

This has turned out to be an interesting debate hasn't it.

I joined RAYNET mainly to help out the local Hospices on a Sunday morning, gets me out in the fresh air, made friends, get a good feeling knowing I've done some good and gets me away from Mrs T:thumb2

The Emergency side of things is good too, again you get the feeling that you've done some good in this world and heaven knows there's little enough of that.

I think my neighbour is probably a minority in not being appreciative but hey you get that kind of person in every walk of life. I've PM'd DaveD several times and know he's got a good idea of RAYNET and other volunteers and what services people are happy to give for the good of the community they live in. I've spoekn with several emergency planners in this area and know they too appreciate the value of volunteers and certainly one in particular.

I'm just happy to do my bit whether it is when needed in an emergency or just the local hospices (4 in the area) fun run's or what ever. If I ever stopped enjoying doing this type of work then may be I'll stop but until that time I'll carry on.

Jim T

[Deleted account DD]

Bog off Dave, it wasn't me:lol:lol

Have to say I doubt that the occasion would ever arrise with me but I would point blank refuse to transport prisoners:eek: I don't mind nurses tho;)

Jim T

ooops sorry all I can create a new word "name pissed" or maybe just cough I got mixed up :doh:o

[Deleted account DD]

Jim (got it right :augie) , I think your neighour is the minority , I'm glad we're not all tarred with the same brush.

RayNet , to name just one org, do a great job, they lose me when they talk all technical and I fall back on the "so can you speak to him from there" question.

However I do recall reading an old plan somewhere where they were one org who would be requested to provide comms post nuclear holocaust...........now.......how could we have a live play exercise to validate and practice for that :nenau :augie

[lacroupade]

It is exactly the same failing as the one why dont police forces have some 4x4s ? its not as if theyre like snowploughs and cant be used for 8 months of the year.

Cos those motorway 'traffic officer' jerks have not only taken your jobs away, they've nicked your 4x4 budget as well.....still, wouldn't be such an attractive job if they had to plough up and down the motorway in something that was actually useful, like a Transit eh?! :doh

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Cos those motorway 'traffic officer' jerks have not only taken your jobs away, they've nicked your 4x4 budget as well.....still, wouldn't be such an attractive job if they had to plough up and down the motorway in something that was actually useful, like a Transit eh?! :doh

frankly for every rangey they could have 2 pathfinders, not sure what evos run at but
guessing more than a pf too.

bit different for the nhs trusts, but sure most commercials offer a 4wd option, even
a couple in in fleet for trips to the sticks? South yorks has atleast a lr110 support
vehicle for tugging.

as JT i'd be far more comfortable helping casulties or ferrying midwifes and district
nurses. or heaven forbid just checking my immediate eldery neighbours are ok for
basics.

I'm sure everyone I know thru this site does what they do on a selfless basis and in no
way would i wish to come across at critising their actions, nor are they inflating
their egos as per 1 comment. But it still begs the question why are civilians doing
work for the country that should be provided by the country. ok this is nothing new
I am more than aware that the the air ambulances, the RNLI and mountain rescue
are generally charity funded and staffed by trained volunteers. but to my knowledge
they dont use their own personal equipment. perhaps though they started this way.

last thought if you're looking for 4x4s to enlist try the local TA, mine has ready supply
of LRs and larger trucks. believe they've got drivers too!

[Terranosaurus]

as JT i'd be far more comfortable helping casulties or ferrying midwifes and district
nurses.

Just the sort of jobs most 4x4 Responders have been doing, although not so much the casualties. Its more a case of enabling and assisting the existing services to continue doing their jobs. So getting key staff into work is a big one, but out of hours and on call services, midwifes, district nurses etc are all run of the mill 4x4 Response jobs - the talk of prisoners by Ocelot is an isolated incident and all responder are free to say no to any job at any time.



I'm sure everyone I know thru this site does what they do on a selfless basis and in no
way would i wish to come across at critising their actions, nor are they inflating
their egos as per 1 comment. But it still begs the question why are civilians doing
work for the country that should be provided by the country. ok this is nothing new
I am more than aware that the the air ambulances, the RNLI and mountain rescue
are generally charity funded and staffed by trained volunteers. but to my knowledge
they dont use their own personal equipment. perhaps though they started this way.

last thought if you're looking for 4x4s to enlist try the local TA, mine has ready supply
of LRs and larger trucks. believe they've got drivers too!

I think a fair few mountain rescue outfits do use members vehicle and plenty of other equipment too - sure they'll no doubt have a main vehicle or 2 but often need more than that so use members ones.

The issue at both ends is funding, doesn't matter wether 4x4 Response had their own vehicles or government agencies had their own - where is the money going to come from to have them sat around for 11 1/2 months of the year.

As for the TA and Army - the problem is with all the paperwork etc and general permissions and red tape it can take 24 or 48 hours to mobilise military assistance. I had a call at 3am on saturday night just gone, it was to recover an Ambulance stuck on sheet ice. I (as controller for YL4x4REsponse) had a guy on scene, job done and back in bed inside an hour.

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

not usre about 11.5 months, had floods in spring summer and autumn. guess they could
hire in, and senior staff well they can afford their own or choose not to just like we all
choose to in first place.

even st johns have gone some trolls and landies and used all year round.

[Terranosaurus]

Not sure about St Johns, but certainly Red Cross have got plenty 4x4s, Landrover gave them 30 for UK and 30 for international last year. Many are up in the NW (COckermouth) at the moment, certainly Yorkshires are, thus I've had them on the phone last week. Problem is they don't really have anyone to drive em. YL4x4 Response have put 16 of their guys through basic 4x4/offroad training but without regular refreshers like anyone learning anything they will forget.

But all these organisations started somewhere, 4x4 Response might be 30 years old as a concept but as a proper national organisation it is only a couple of years old. The RNLI started out small with people using their own gear - I'm not saying 4x4 Response will ever get that big but it is certainly a target to head for.


I am told WY part of YAS (Yroks Ambulance Service) hired in 40 octavia 4x4s and 20 Defenders - just imagine the bill involved there. I doubt those octavias were on any hire fleet, likely to be have bought in for the job - expect to se some going through car sales in a month or so.

Once upon a time people would have copped themselves and not whinged that the bin wasn't emptied one week because of bad weather - North Yorkshire still does on the whole for instance and other people would have just helped out from a sense of community mindedness, without the need for organised assistance from the likes of 4x4 Response. Instead these days we get jack the lads with 4x4s charging for tows up hills etc, I've even heard of instances of people being seemingly deliberately run off the road by a 4x4 who then offers to tow them out for a charge.

I'm afraid the growing demands on and expectations of the public services will mean ever more relience on the voluntary sector in many areass. To many people expect so much but very few are willing to pay for it in taxation.

[ocelot]

Right, just got in from work , made a short response to this from my phone browser, no idea where that's gone :rolleyes: but I'll just restate a couple of points, I have a significant real time interest in this subject and I have no doubts or problems with the motivation and morals of the majority of participants. My concerns are entirely professional and actually tend towards protecting the 4x4 brigade.

Ocelot, you have missed the point completely and I do wonder the motives of semi disclosing your background whatever the context unless its to (drum roll) give an air of mystery and suspense :confused:

A warrant card as you describe yourself holding and they used to be called is effectively a public document, its not secret, it is meant to be produced to identify you and accredit your powers ie what you are warranted by the relevant official bodies to do. Most, even at the highest clearance levels are happy to say what they do just no details of the parts that require clearance. eg I'm an electronics technician working on a confidential project. I actually had a friend who did that for a living. Programming systems on helicopter anti sub missiles. Never knew where he was working or the details of it.

Thats what puzzles me about your semi disclosure, its all over the place.

The reason behind vetting, checking out or security clearance. whatever term you choose is far from an exclusive club.Theres loads of us around and the levels range from a basic voluntary check way way up the scale where they know all sorts (friend of mine had a very interesting chat with the checking officer from London about his internet viewing habits :lol:lol:lol so he says anyway ;) ) What security clearance serves to do is demonstrate at a certain time you are unlikely to be dishonest or corrupt not open to coercion. Most official or state employees have also signed the official secrets act too.

Pretty boring stuff really........no very boring actually (ps for any hackers or moles out there theres no graded docs on this machine at all :D)

Now what does that prove as far as 4x4 response goes?

Very little actually.

The main point , and it is a good one, is that you are unlikely to disclose information inappropriately. eg someone transporting a care worker around is unlikely to later sell a list of all vulnerable folk to Billy Burglar.

So how do individuals carrying out voluntary work in 4x4s get "clearance". Mountain rescue are probably a good example. Part of the agreement up here that brings them in under the Health working umbrella is that each person on duty has been vetted and cleared. Thats why a lot of areas politely decline some volunteers.

Now the original point which Ocelot missed.

Depending on what your "warrant card" is and in the absence of up to date qualifications in several areas up to date you are in certain elements of training you probably are an untrained member of the public. More world wise, demonstrated integrity, maybe previously qualified but in modern accountable terms still an untrained member of the public.

Therfore carrying prisoners in circumstances an officer would not is what I have a problem with. Risk assesed yes, but the hazard remains at all times (look at the example I gave) and is very real. One persons risk assesment does not mean other qualified people agree. If it is essential a prisoner is transported it is unlikely they are suitable for transport by car. If they are at a level suitable for transport by car, legislation as well as common sense guides towards being dealt with by other means.

Some police services have failed in several forseeable areas under common law and statutory guidlines. Using your goodwill and enthusiasm is an ongoing sticking plaster fix. Like a sticking plaster it will fall off at some point. Thats when , maybe not you in your world but more "normal" people if they live to tell the tale could find themselves in worrying situations.

Things you may be asked at the subsequent enquiry,

"When was you last pst qualification?
when were you last first aid trained to standard?
when did you last do your driving course? have you got an accredited 4x4 qualification?
Can I have a look at the policy/decision log directing your operational activities?...............
I mean after all Mr Volunteer you were carrying out the role during a police operation of a police driver and that is the least they are qualified to"

Theyre just a few of the questions I would ask you, I suspect I wouldnt like to be trying to find the answers either. I strongly suspect silence may follow those questions.

This is nothing personal and as I said I admire the motives of most.

:thumb2







ps I would love to see the risk assessment that says no one will kick , piss or puke in your car.:rolleyes:

or push needles right into the rear cushion (yes they can do it whilst cuffed) so they slowly work their way back out :( honestly, things like that are what concern me.


Afternoon DaveD,
Thanks for your comments, this is a debate worth having on exactly what does happen, could happen and indeed, should happen during a 4x4R or similar type of callout.
my own background is military, primarily communciations. I've seen active service in many parts of the world both in a front line, and support role. My work has been governed by rules of engagement, which if you understand the meaning, should convey a great deal.
I'm working these days for a number of agencies, typically in a comms role, but still actively involved in operational duties with clear parameters. My terminology is old school, I'm quite ancient you know :) the ID I carry I still call a warrant card, it simply allows me to do my job and when presented, identifies me and determines my role as does yours.........
I was in part trained in Cwmbran at the PTC and also Bruche, where I've also been a trainer when both establishments were in use. I remain a course instructor in certain types of systems.
My last pst was a long time ago admittedly, it's not needed in my role as such and I'm not allowed to search. The offender searches were carried out by the two escorting officers.
In terms of first aid, my last course was December 2009 and is required to be redone on a yearly basis, as for vetting, it remains current and is reviewed every year. I have completed two driving course, the basic and standard roadcraft courses of which you will be aware. The 4x4 courses were military in nature although delivered by a sub contractor and led to LANTRA qualifications. I undertake CPD on a yearly basis.

The risk assessment carried out by the officers was goverened by the weather conditions at the time, the vehicle's suitability and my own verified credentials. The prisioners were searched, then handcuffed and escorted at all times. Far from ideal and yes, the plastic lined transit would be far more suitable, but as the 4x4 budget is eaten up by 'traffic', the only option at that time was a 4x4R vehicle.

The work the police in particular does, is difficult to say the least and also far removed from most of our experience, dealing with violent offenders, drug addicts etc takes huge patience and a great depth of character and every police officer who carries out his or her duties in a concientious and professional manner should be given the respect due. I for one, wouldn't want to to their job.

In the same way DaveD, we work for the same goals, the same ideals and with the same integrity, our roles are vastly different, I couldn't do your job, and you certainly couldn't do mine so rather than chipping away at what little I've been able to do, wouldn't it be better to further the aims of 4x4R from within the force? I'm sure your superiors would be very interested.

[Deleted account DD]

As for the TA and Army - the problem is with all the paperwork etc and general permissions and red tape it can take 24 or 48 hours to mobilise military assistance.

Youre dead right. 4hrs is highly optimistic to get them on scene, In fact 48 hrs to mobilise TA is nigh on impossible, not because they wouldnt its pure logistics. Plus of course many resources are elsewhere at the mo.

The red tape inst difficult to cut through with the help of the liaison officer but they then have some pretty high up folk to answer to :thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

I'm working these days for a number of agencies, typically in a comms role,

My last pst was a long time ago admittedly, it's not needed in my role as such and I'm not allowed to search. The offender searches were carried out by the two escorting officers.

In terms of first aid, my last course was December 2009 and is required to be redone on a yearly basis, as for vetting, it remains current and is reviewed every year. I have completed two driving course, the basic and standard roadcraft courses of which you will be aware. The 4x4 courses were military in nature although delivered by a sub contractor and led to LANTRA qualifications. I undertake CPD on a yearly basis.

The risk assessment carried out by the officers was goverened by the weather conditions at the time, the vehicle's suitability and my own verified credentials.

Far from ideal and yes, the plastic lined transit would be far more suitable, but as the 4x4 budget is eaten up by 'traffic', the only option at that time was a 4x4R vehicle.



Evening, I do actually understand the terminology (well I'm presuming I've got alien things like continuous personal dev correct ? ), many of us originate from an active military background and bimble along from there :D It seems you have had a rather mixed background looking at the establishments you have attended. However moving swiftly back onto topic there are still gaps in your cv that would be picked up on as I suspected, I can assure you and I'm sure you'll concede ;)

I wouldnt have expected you to search anyone, in fact I wouldnt have expected you to have any contact whatsoever with an arrested bod and thats where the problem starts.

The answer is for forces to maintain some kind of 4x4 capability, be it a buy in as required resilience or permanent fleet. We have them on fleet.




rather than chipping away at what little I've been able to do, wouldn't it be better to further the aims of 4x4R from within the force? I'm sure your superiors would be very interested..

I will reiterate a point I have made time and time again in public and in pm's which demonstrates no chipping away has been conducted, I believe va's are invaluable and have the utmost respect for them. It is the use they are put to that concerns me.

Transportation of prisoners and custody is a core police function.

Business continuity of core functions are a clear legislated responsibility of the force.

If they do not have contingency measures in place to full fill those using properly accredited fully trained staff with proper equipment they are failing. I'm pretty certain they'd get (or heading towards) a red from HMI for this one :augie

I would put forward the point that even if my or anyone else's risk asses saw you as suitable, what happens when the bloke 6 cops are sitting on in the town centre following the stabbing needs transporting and youre not available :confused: who would do it then :confused:

As far as furthering the aims, read my earlier posts. I have a genuine professional interest in this one. The question I am asking myself before I start writing reports is what roles for you would I suggest to any development team ?

Transporting prisoners is unlikely to be one ;)

I intend continuing collating information of which this thread is one part :) but once you scratch the surface theres a lot more to it.

If you feel due to the public nature of the forum theres more to say I can provide you with my secure email addr for contact :thumb2

oh and one last thing......please drop the unqualified use of the title "superiors" that really does date you in theses modern times ;) (me too of course) It is manager, supervisor or similar. informally boss. The reason stems from a bit of pc culture but its also practical. We work to skill and knowledge levels. I'm not superior to anyone who advises me or passes me info, in fact if theyre doing that theyre superior to me cos they know more on the topic :thumb2

[zippy656]

wesex 4x4 have a pub meet coming up soo, 5th Feb in Devizes.

fell free to pop along, talk with 4x4 response member and maybe join up!

pm me for location

[Deleted account DD]

wesex 4x4 have a pub meet coming up soo, 5th Feb in Devizes.

fell free to pop along, talk with 4x4 response member and maybe join up!

pm me for location

See if I can get an overnighter otherwise its too far ;)

In the current climate I think I know what the answer will be :(

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

I am genuinely pleased you guys want to do this and that the professionals need
you but dont think they should need to. i suspect their contingency plans are not
upto it though may be reviewed after the last few weeks. hey and this is only
early january not normally renowned for snow, there is plenty of winter to go
and the shortest month usually throws the best/worst weather.

think this goes well with recent national news about what this winter has cost
britain in terms of lost wages and down time, then this notion of winterising us
to the standards taken for granted in the northern parts of europe. since this
doesnt include heating the roads i suspect it must mean better equipment for
vital services.

problem is we only get these winters every 15 years or so and suspect alot
of infarstructures are compromised by cost of average not worst conditions.

[Deleted account DD]

Couldnt agree more :thumb2

[jims-terrano]

I think the lack of resources really boils down to cash or rather the lack of it. If we as a country were to equip our services and authorities to be able to cope with these and other rare problems then our taxes would sky rocket. The poor councils trying to keep costs down are being told by central government to cut costs even further starting this year are damd if they do and damd if they don't. If the local authorities had stocked up with grit then council taxes would be even higher.

Jim T

[(RIP) PLANK]

a bit off topic but now that you have mentioned it:

salting roads, environmetaly dangerous polution to water courses etc, so why does everyone secream for more while slaggin off 4x4's?

also the gritting lorries use alot of diesel making lots more co2, so do all the hatchbacks runnig the engines to keep warm in the traffic jams they are stuck in as they can't get through a couple of inches of snow.

so instead of blaming the government why not get a set of snow chains, they are compulsory in many parts of europe, or some decent winter tyres?

you know these snow moaners dont even bother to put on a decent pair of shoes! our postman was complaining yesterday about his feet getting cold and wet every day because of the snow, blames the council for not gritting pavements bear in mind he works out doors all weathers full time! and he was wearing trainers :doh

I have every sympathy for those affected by the weather but wouldn't providing ourselves with a bit of basic cold weather equipment, e.g, boots and a wooly hat for starters be better than keep asking the goverment for help - or is this the ultimate example of the nanny state?

moan over :thumbs

[Deleted account DD]

One of the funniest accounts (in a darkly humorous way) regarding gritting I heard was with regards to what its made up of.

Apparently it often contains molasses which makes it stick better to the road.

This practice was banned in some areas of Europe after several serious accidents involving vehicles and various badgers, dogs, foxes and other animals who got distracted licking the road they were supposed to be crossing :lol....sorry :(

You really couldnt make it up could you :D

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Youre dead right. 4hrs is highly optimistic to get them on scene, In fact 48 hrs to mobilise TA is nigh on impossible, not because they wouldnt its pure logistics. Plus of course many resources are elsewhere at the mo.

The red tape inst difficult to cut through with the help of the liaison officer but they then have some pretty high up folk to answer to :thumb2

Hey I know that feeling, I have to answer to the MRS (missus) and its her motor!

[zippy656]

Hey I know that feeling, I have to answer to the MRS (missus) and its her motor!


if its HER motor, when why she not her keeping us lot in like along with willow?

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

if its HER motor, when why she not her keeping us lot in like along with willow?

er cos this is my time...hers is emmerdale corry and those miserable walforders!

anyroad how do you know this is me and not her ??? now thats scarry.

[(RIP) PLANK]

er cos this is my time...hers is emmerdale corry and those miserable walforders!

anyroad how do you know this is me and not her ??? now thats scarry.

because she is better looking than you, now bugger off and give her a turn at the keyboard :lol

[extreme-4x4]

er cos this is my time...hers is emmerdale corry and those miserable walforders!

anyroad how do you know this is me and not her ??? now thats scarry.


now thats funny:bow:bow:bow

[extreme-4x4]

because she is better looking than you, now bugger off and give her a turn at the keyboard :lol

what a fantastic idea:naughty

[ocelot]

Evening, I do actually understand the terminology (well I'm presuming I've got alien things like continuous personal dev correct ? ), many of us originate from an active military background and bimble along from there :D It seems you have had a rather mixed background looking at the establishments you have attended. However moving swiftly back onto topic there are still gaps in your cv that would be picked up on as I suspected, I can assure you and I'm sure you'll concede ;)

I wouldnt have expected you to search anyone, in fact I wouldnt have expected you to have any contact whatsoever with an arrested bod and thats where the problem starts.

The answer is for forces to maintain some kind of 4x4 capability, be it a buy in as required resilience or permanent fleet. We have them on fleet.




I will reiterate a point I have made time and time again in public and in pm's which demonstrates no chipping away has been conducted, I believe va's are invaluable and have the utmost respect for them. It is the use they are put to that concerns me.

Transportation of prisoners and custody is a core police function.

Business continuity of core functions are a clear legislated responsibility of the force.

If they do not have contingency measures in place to full fill those using properly accredited fully trained staff with proper equipment they are failing. I'm pretty certain they'd get (or heading towards) a red from HMI for this one :augie

I would put forward the point that even if my or anyone else's risk asses saw you as suitable, what happens when the bloke 6 cops are sitting on in the town centre following the stabbing needs transporting and youre not available :confused: who would do it then :confused:

As far as furthering the aims, read my earlier posts. I have a genuine professional interest in this one. The question I am asking myself before I start writing reports is what roles for you would I suggest to any development team ?

Transporting prisoners is unlikely to be one ;)

I intend continuing collating information of which this thread is one part :) but once you scratch the surface theres a lot more to it.

If you feel due to the public nature of the forum theres more to say I can provide you with my secure email addr for contact :thumb2

oh and one last thing......please drop the unqualified use of the title "superiors" that really does date you in theses modern times ;) (me too of course) It is manager, supervisor or similar. informally boss. The reason stems from a bit of pc culture but its also practical. We work to skill and knowledge levels. I'm not superior to anyone who advises me or passes me info, in fact if theyre doing that theyre superior to me cos they know more on the topic :thumb2

:) As I said, I'm old school................ my cv has some considerable gaps in from your point of view, but then, I'd not and would prefer not, to disclose much more. I've followed a highly specialist career overall with lots of offshoots to encapsulate operational requirements, (jargon to say that red tape prevents me from doing my job unless I have the necessary paperwork) As for superiors, well, my bosses are, to be honest, I hold them in the utmost, they've seen more operational stuff than I care to mention in a very wide scope, I'll refer to them as management from now on.
I agree that transporting prisoners is not for the general public and should only really be done by police officers, only in the most dire circumstances should anything else be considered.
Just for the record, north wales police usually hire in 4x4's to cover bad weather etc but the post office had got them all, that's what really caused the requirement for 4x4R.

If you'd like to follow this privately, my email address can be pm'd no problem, I've said most of what I can on here.

[Deleted account DD]

Just for the record, north wales police usually hire in 4x4's to cover bad weather etc but the post office had got them all,




lmao :lol

[jims-terrano]

On a similar subject but RAYNET, probably something that I'll be needed to do but a good example at this moment in time. Have a look at the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4zZmP_o480&feature=related

Jim T

[Deleted account DD]

That is an excellent example of what can be done to provide resilience when all else fails.

Theres no way the situation in that country could have been mitigated and its time to step in if you can with the skills you have.

What I'd want to make sure of is that va's are not used as a sticking plaster to cover others failings.

That guy in the film is effective, helpful, modest and completely unpretentious :thumb2