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Teacher Sacked Over Prayer Offer For Pupil
2:18pm UK, Sunday December 20, 2009
Katie Cassidy, Sky News Online
A teacher who was sacked after offering to pray for a sick student says she has been treated like a criminal.
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http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Dec/Week3/15505269.jpg Olive Jones with her son James after his return from Afghanistan
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Olive Jones was dismissed from her job as a home-visit teacher after she spoke about her faith with a girl's mother.
The maths teacher gives lessons to children who are too ill to attend school.
When the girl did not feel up to the November 25 visit, Mrs Jones spoke to her mother over a cup of tea and asked whether she could say a prayer.
The teacher - a mother of two herself - said when the woman told her the family were not believers, she did not go ahead.
But Mrs Jones was later let go after the mother complained the teacher's comments had distressed her and her child.
The Oak Hill Short Stay School and Tuition Service in Nailsea, North Somerset told the teacher that sharing her faith with a child could be deemed to be bullying.
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It is like a black mark against my name and character when it comes to getting a reference for another job, just because I shared my testimony - as if I committed a criminal act.
<cite> Olive Jones </cite>
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Mrs Jones, who's youngest son has served in Afghanistan, said she simply wanted to encourage prayer - not force it down the family's throat.
"If I had done something criminal, I believe the reaction would have been the same," said the 54-year-old from Weston-super-Mare.
"It is like a black mark against my name and character when it comes to getting a reference for another job, just because I shared my testimony - as if I committed a criminal act.
"It was only when I mentioned prayer that the mother said I do not want prayer, we do not believe, so I did not go ahead."
Mrs Jones, who has been teaching for more than 20 years, said after the shock of her dismissal wore off, she was hurt by the response.
"I'm not out to get anyone, I am angry at their interpretation of freedom of speech," she said.
"I am amazed that a country with such a strong Christian tradition has become a country where it is hard to speak about your faith."
jims-terrano
21-12-2009, 10:40
You'd be surprised about the do's and don'ts in schools, from either regulations and parents worried about the slightest thing. Peoples faith plays a part in this but also people just being worried for unknown reasons.
Although I have every sympathy for her and the fact this country is pandering to the wims of every individual or group of people does not help. However as a trained teacher she should have known better, it's like a lot of things these days you have to keep your gob shut for fear of someone moaning at you. Perhaps both the teacher and parents could of handled the situation better but as a parent if one of my children were ill I may not be thinking straight either. From the news bulletin I saw last night the teacher has had a similar problem before.
Jim T
lacroupade
21-12-2009, 12:00
You'd be surprised about the do's and don'ts in schools, from either regulations and parents worried about the slightest thing. Peoples faith plays a part in this but also people just being worried for unknown reasons.
Although I have every sympathy for her and the fact this country is pandering to the wims of every individual or group of people does not help. However as a trained teacher she should have known better, it's like a lot of things these days you have to keep your gob shut for fear of someone moaning at you. Perhaps both the teacher and parents could of handled the situation better but as a parent if one of my children were ill I may not be thinking straight either. From the news bulletin I saw last night the teacher has had a similar problem before.
Jim T
Interesting one; and Jims last point kind of underlines it for me.
I know its tricky talking religion and politics but by the sound of it this woman is a bit of an evangeliser and thats the problem. If she is a believer (in whatever the hell is out there, because NOBODY actually knows do they!) then by all means pray to her god for the child in quiet, but theres no need to be punting her wares as it were.
If you have ever had contact with evangelical so-called 'christians' (because I can tell you they are about as christian as Attila the Hun) - and I have, having worked with a bunch of them for quite a while in the corporate area (and no I wasn't one!), you will know that they are trained to exploit weaknesses like people in distress or suffering problems. It makes me puke.
Of the 10-odd BACs (Born Again Christians) I worked with, every single one, without exception, had 'found Jesus' during a time of extreme personal trauma - nervous breakdown, divorce etc.. not because they were searching but because someone had exploited their situation.
And their belief in the scriptures is absolute but also very convenient for them - for example, when faced with justifying their action in telling their wives to bog off and mind their own business while they go out on the piss, its normal to quote biblical passages like "a nagging wife is like a dripping tap", or "its better to be on the roof of ones house than inside with a nagging wife".
They are more like Muslims than you would imagine........
So yes, I know a fair bit about these people and could bore you all day with examples of their hypocrisy - and with the greatest of respect to those of you who have faith, sadly I don't...but neither do I shove it down other peoples throats.
Happy Christmas and as DA always said, may your god go with you. :thumbs
The BBC say that the teacher has been suspended while a complaint is being investigated. Not sure how Sky News interpreted that as being 'sacked'. Never let actual facts get in the way of a good outrage story...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/8423265.stm
Oddly enough a similar scenario has come up my children’s school
Obviously as in most schools there are multiple faiths, we have a scenario where parents of Muslim children are quite happy for them to sit in on ''other religions'' lessons but CofE and Catholics won’t let their children sit in on ''Muslim'' lessons
Basically the RE teacher covers a fair few religions so the kids understand about each other’s faiths , not a bad idea in my opinion.
People seem to think that the only ''mad bombers'' about are Muslims when there are quite a few other faiths that have done it before.
Incidentally the 1st ever confirmed religious suicide bomber was Jewish.
lacroupade
21-12-2009, 14:13
The BBC say that the teacher has been suspended while a complaint is being investigated. Not sure how Sky News interpreted that as being 'sacked'. Never let actual facts get in the way of a good outrage story...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/8423265.stm
How bloody true is THAT!! :thumbs
Oddly enough a similar scenario has come up my children’s school
Obviously as in most schools there are multiple faiths, we have a scenario where parents of Muslim children are quite happy for them to sit in on ''other religions'' lessons but CofE and Catholics won’t let their children sit in on ''Muslim'' lessons
Basically the RE teacher covers a fair few religions so the kids understand about each other’s faiths , not a bad idea in my opinion.
People seem to think that the only ''mad bombers'' about are Muslims when there are quite a few other faiths that have done it before.
Incidentally the 1st ever confirmed religious suicide bomber was Jewish.
And ain't that the problem; its often because we don't understand other peoples beliefs that we either poo-poo them or think of them as weird - just take Catholics for example! (LOL that was just to wind Liam up LMAO!).... like I said, i've seen so-called christians who treat their women just as badly as we perceive other religions to. I'm not saying we have to accept people perspectives, religion is a deeply personal area, but understanding them is a start.
Heres an example..... my dimwit sister, I'm ashamed to say, was married to a Kurd, who clearly got his feet under the table to get a passport, which he did, then fekd off and divorced her. Weeks later his non-english speaking wife rolls up, has a baby in an NHS hospital at my expense (hubby is meanwhile working in an on-shore tax haven - a complex financial accounting device otherwise known technically as a kebab shop) and complains about the fact that she got sent to a cottage hospital where there was minimal pain relief....I still can't work out whether that was because she spoke no english, or just an act of divine retribution LOL.
Anyway, months later, my eldest daughter is at my sisters and the ex-husband and his Kurdish wife are on none of their regular visits (don't ask!) and my daughter, as kids do, gently rubs the babies head with her stockinged foot.
Hubby goes bonkers, yelling about how disrespectful it is in his country blah blah blah...wish I'd been there!
But the point is it illustrates what I'm saying perfectly - had he explained, we would at least have understood his concerns (even though he's in the First World now and not in a bloody goat shed anymore!).....I still wouldn't have given a flying f*ck, but at least I would have known why he was acting like a complete turd!
And I'm tolerant!.....Its no different to a brit wanting to drink scalding hot tea in Saudi Arabia at 4pm in 40C...twat! Leave your stupid practices at home where they belong!
I love these threads! :-) :thumbs
Oh God,what have I started!!! Should have known Paully was about:doh:doh
I have a sister in law who is a Jehovah's Witness,she tried to "convert" my two when she used to mind them. Had them praying 3 or 4 times a day (they were about three and five at the time). Haven't really spoken to her since. I try to be tolerant of other peoples religions as it is a very personal thing and I like to think I respect their right to worship their own particular God. I am Catholic by birth but try to be christian in my dealings with people (don't always succeed), I don't have any love for pushy religions of any type but if curious about other faiths ,I will do my own finding out,thank you very much. If I don't understand someone's religion,it's because I'm not interested in finding out. Have to say on a personal level,most C of E people I have met have seemed to be more tolerant and Christian in their general behaviour than a lot of Catholics I know.
Incidentally,Paul,you are spot on with your assessment of the recruiting methods of some of these religions,my sis in law was unmarried,two kids,council estate,high unemployment area with a lot of social problems in the area. Local Catholic Church and priests did usual hand wringing and praying,Jehovah's ,Born Agains,Mormons etc. had a feeding frenzy and gained a lot of new members. Always the same methods,go to the high unemployment,social problem areas and recruit vulnerable people. I often wonder why the Catholic Church don't get the message,most of these people feel let down by society and with someone to listen and emphatise with them,might well be able to sort themselves out with a little guidance and encouragement.
lacroupade
21-12-2009, 21:41
I thought you started this thread just for me Liam??? :lol:lol
I have three kinds of entertainment when I'm bored that really cheer me up because they are monstrously hysterical!...
1. Any Nigerian or other African satellite channel, you know the ones with the woodentop actors and the overmodulated soundtrack - they really crease me up.
2. Any religious satellite channel, especially the bad American ones with really bad wigs!
3. Religious videos on Youtube, specifically the comments on them from all the 'believers'....just type in 'Jesus' and see what pops up!
I think the reason you find C of E folk more accommodating is because they don' take themselves seriously - except for high church and the happy-clappy tambourine brigade of course. I mean look at the logic - we used to belong to a church that the Irish in Eire and the UK love but is led by, ummm an Austrian fella who lives in his head office in, umm Italy...? But then our head honcho Henry decided we'd take our stumps and play somewhere else so he could get a divorce - I mean whats that all about???? :doh:doh
But if we were all the same wouldn't the world be a boring place! :thumbs
I thought you started this thread just for me Liam??? :lol:lol
Well,I thought with all the childbirth and ex-wife stuff you had recently,it might be an idea to get your thought processes back where they ought to be,like sorting out the the churches and other serious stuff. After all,can't have you wasting your talents changing nappies and breast feeding and going goo goo to some poor innocent child. There's a whole bunch of people on here who depend on you to keep them on the straight and narrow.:bow:bow:bow
lacroupade
21-12-2009, 22:11
Screech at you Liam, as my missus would say!
Look I'm going to show you what an evil little ba5tard I am.......this is clipped from the comments in a Youtube video I stalked last night - look what the bloke wrote back to me....nutter or wot???
And I even got a neg vote - what a result!!!!
.
.
.
supertaff
21-12-2009, 22:33
Hey Paul, isn't that "Head Honcho Harry" a member of Team South East ??
Matt.
definately a nut case, do you know him paul,???:lol:augie
lacroupade
21-12-2009, 22:38
Hey Paul, isn't that "Head Honcho Harry" a member of Team South East ??
Matt. Got to be an Essex boy if you ask me Taff! LMAO
definately a nut case, do you know him paul,???:lol:augie
I think he's out of the Da Vinci Code or something by the sound of it????? :lol:lol
Thats got to be my new sig I think.
Interesting thread and interesting comments. Seems like I may be in a bit of a minority being a "Roman" Catholic and what would be considered a "traditional" or "conservative" one at that. Not proud of a lot of what has gone on in the Catholic Church especially of late but there is a destinction to be made between the messangers and the message. Can't personally see anything very much wrong with someone of faith saying they will pray for someone. In itself it is a gesture of kindness and compassion. I can accept the point about evangalisation of vulnerable people but have seen as much of that from non-religious people as from religious.
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 00:03
But I think to be fair Dan, with the exception of the odd academic like Prof whatever his name was, Dawkins was it?, most atheists/agnostics only respond when challenged - there are very few of them who actively evangelise their lack of belief, whereas too many religious folk think it their lot in life to treat us as if we are stupid and missing something.
Frankly we all had enough RE and so forth at school to have a clue what religion is about and therefore whether or not we want to be interested - I don't want people asking me if I want to be prayed for to be honest, any more than I want someone in tesco's car park coming up to me telling me I ought to be driving a Daewoo instead of a Terrano.
If I wanted to pray I'd go to church, but I don't, and that doesn't make me wrong, any more than being a church-goer makes you wrong. We all have our own views about life and its mysteries - the older I get the more convinced I get that our whole existence is all a bit too convenient for there not to have been some kind of, lets call it a 'helping hand'. But what that consisted of none of us know do we - fact. My father-in-law genuinely believes it was little green men, but hey, he's entitled cos theres nothing to contradict it.
Until 'god' taps me on the shoulder and says hello - and I don't mean in my head, anyone can claim that - then I don't have ANY evidence of his or her existence. But nor does anyone else, otherwise it would all have been over a long time ago. The bible is just a very old, cobbled-together but useful book of parables, and theres no physical evidence whatsoever, but because we are just insignificant, mortal beings with a tiny lifespan in the scheme of things, we are afraid, and we want something to believe in otherwise what the hell is it all about?
Its when I get BACs telling me that the earth is only 7000 years old and that fossils were 'put there by god to give man something to think about' that I get slightly goggle-eyed.....but if you are a true believer and take the bible for what it purports to be, thats what you believe.....you can't just take the bits that suit you.
And don't tell me to believe what a bunch of men in robes tells me I ought to be believing - what monopoly do they have exactly on the subject?
But at the end of the day, if it gets us all talking and learning a bit from each other and being better people as a result, well who really cares?
nd please don't take any offence will you dan; we often have these 'heart to hearts' and they are always pretty robust and frank, but we're still all mates! LOL :thumbs
When i was at school you obeyed the queen and renounced the devil through Religous education no choice , well you did, do as you were told or get a clump. We said prayers in assembly.
My children have multi faiths taught at school, which I do not particularly like, but kinda understand as i do not follow religion.
The teacher meant well, and as was said before was a compassionate and kind gesture.
Sorry if our traditions offend, then they also have a choice, practice their own religion in their own countrty not ours and without the protection of our troops.
who we all im sure hope if not pray in the strictest term for a safe return of all our troops.
paulp
Interesting thread and interesting comments. Seems like I may be in a bit of a minority being a "Roman" Catholic and what would be considered a "traditional" or "conservative" one at that. Not proud of a lot of what has gone on in the Catholic Church especially of late but there is a destinction to be made between the messangers and the message. Can't personally see anything very much wrong with someone of faith saying they will pray for someone. In itself it is a gesture of kindness and compassion. I can accept the point about evangalisation of vulnerable people but have seen as much of that from non-religious people as from religious.
Don't think you are in a minority,danielj. As I said I try to be Christian and see the good in people most of the time. I still haven't gotten over the fact that when I went to Galway to the youth mass during John Paul 2's visit to Ireland,Bishop Eamon Casey and Fr Michael Cleary were both on the altar with the Pope. Both since found to have kids at that time. I suppose I was very naive and was still in awe of the clergy back then. My fault for being silly but since then I have grown up a little and don't have a lot of faith in the messengers,they all seem to have feet of clay. Can't speak for how it is to be Roman Catholic in the UK but in Ireland when I was growing up it was very strict as the schools were (and many still are) controlled by the clergy. It would take forever to explain what it was like. Anyway, I'm sorry if anything I said offended you,certainly not my intention to offend anyone on here.
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 00:20
Ditto! I just enjoy the craic. :thumbs
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 00:27
Don't think you are in a minority,danielj. As I said I try to be Christian and see the good in people most of the time. I still haven't gotten over the fact that when I went to Galway to the youth mass during John Paul 2's visit to Ireland,Bishop Eamon Casey and Fr Michael Cleary were both on the altar with the Pope. Both since found to have kids at that time. I suppose I was very naive and was still in awe of the clergy back then. My fault for being silly but since then I have grown up a little and don't have a lot of faith in the messengers,they all seem to have feet of clay. Can't speak for how it is to be Roman Catholic in the UK but in Ireland when I was growing up it was very strict as the schools were (and many still are) controlled by the clergy. It would take forever to explain what it was like. Anyway, I'm sorry if anything I said offended you,certainly not my intention to offend anyone on here.
But two things Liam, firstly I wonder who decided that priests had to be celibate - as we have seen all too often it can lead to serious problems.
Secondly, I'm not quite sure I quite believe you buggers!
As you know, I spent quite a few years travelling to Limerick with a former g/f and was often dragged to mass by her aunt, despite being a prot, and I was usually the only bloke in there!!! The men all used to sit around the gate chewing the fat and smoking until it was all over!
Now I'm only ribbing you as you know by now, but thats country church for you!
But two things Liam, firstly I wonder who decided that priests had to be celibate - as we have seen all too often it can lead to serious problems.
Secondly, I'm not quite sure I quite believe you buggers!
As you know, I spent quite a few years travelling to Limerick with a former g/f and was often dragged to mass by her aunt, despite being a prot, and I was usually the only bloke in there!!! The men all used to sit around the gate chewing the fat and smoking until it was all over!
Now I'm only ribbing you as you know by now, but thats country church for you!
Disgraceful!! You mean the men stood outside the church smoking and talking without a drink in their hands?
But I think to be fair Dan, with the exception of the odd academic like Prof whatever his name was, Dawkins was it?, most atheists/agnostics only respond when challenged - there are very few of them who actively evangelise their lack of belief, whereas too many religious folk think it their lot in life to treat us as if we are stupid and missing something.
Frankly we all had enough RE and so forth at school to have a clue what religion is about and therefore whether or not we want to be interested - I don't want people asking me if I want to be prayed for to be honest, any more than I want someone in tesco's car park coming up to me telling me I ought to be driving a Daewoo instead of a Terrano.
If I wanted to pray I'd go to church, but I don't, and that doesn't make me wrong, any more than being a church-goer makes you wrong. We all have our own views about life and its mysteries - the older I get the more convinced I get that our whole existence is all a bit too convenient for there not to have been some kind of, lets call it a 'helping hand'. But what that consisted of none of us know do we - fact. My father-in-law genuinely believes it was little green men, but hey, he's entitled cos theres nothing to contradict it.
Until 'god' taps me on the shoulder and says hello - and I don't mean in my head, anyone can claim that - then I don't have ANY evidence of his or her existence. But nor does anyone else, otherwise it would all have been over a long time ago. The bible is just a very old, cobbled-together but useful book of parables, and theres no physical evidence whatsoever, but because we are just insignificant, mortal beings with a tiny lifespan in the scheme of things, we are afraid, and we want something to believe in otherwise what the hell is it all about?
Its when I get BACs telling me that the earth is only 7000 years old and that fossils were 'put there by god to give man something to think about' that I get slightly goggle-eyed.....but if you are a true believer and take the bible for what it purports to be, thats what you believe.....you can't just take the bits that suit you.
And don't tell me to believe what a bunch of men in robes tells me I ought to be believing - what monopoly do they have exactly on the subject?
But at the end of the day, if it gets us all talking and learning a bit from each other and being better people as a result, well who really cares?
nd please don't take any offence will you dan; we often have these 'heart to hearts' and they are always pretty robust and frank, but we're still all mates! LOL :thumbs
No problem. No offence taken.
Don't know if I would agree that most atheists / agnostics only respond when challanged. In so far as that is true in my experience its because everyone is expected to assume the position of atheism / agnosticism as if it was the default position for use in public. Any expression of not adhering to the default position is taken as a challange or evangalisation. On the other hand, I don't take the fact that I have to adhere to the default position as a direct challange. Don't make the mistake of thinking Atheism / agnosticism is not itself a system of belief / philosophy just as Christianity.
As to not wanting people to come up to you in a public place asking you if you wanted to be prayed for it is not something I would recommend because they might just meet someone like yourself who finds it intrusive, an imposition etc. Nonetheless, I don't particularly see anything inherently wrong with people coming up to me in public places advocating or giving out some information on a political or social issue or telling me I should vote this way or that even if I know a good deal on the subject and disagree with them. Wouldn't even see a problem with them telling me I should drive a Daewoo instead of a Terrano. Maybe they have some point to make I didn't think about and if not then I'll tell them they are wrong and no thanks. I would tend to see the whole issue here rather one of how it is done.
I ceratainly would not accept your views on our ability to know some things. You impose a fairly low threshold on the human beings capacity to know and understand. I would understand your view to be very subjectivistic and just having views or opinions on a subject, e.g. religion, going to church, knowledge of afterlife etc. does not make those views or opinions true or false or right or wrong. It does not make mine true or false for that matter either. What makes them true or false is whether they correspond with some objective reality or not.
Wouldn't agree with you about the bible either. There are reams of physical and historical evidence for a substantial part of the contents of the bible, including Jesus. As to wheter that evidence will convince any specific individual that Jesus was God I believe that depends on the individual as much if not more so than the evidence. Most people believe in a lot of things with a lot less physical and historical evidence to support them.
Don't buy the one that belief in God or religion is just a result of us insignificant entities needing some security in a vast universe and so forth. Human beings inventing such a psychological or emotional soother explains nothing. Does the world, existence, life have meaning, order, a purpose or not is the question? There is a huge amount of evidence that it has. But if it has what is its source?
Strange you getting a bit googly eyed about the BAC's telling you the world is only 7,000 years old. There is as little to contradict them as there is to contradict the little green men theory.
I am not telling you to believe what a bunch of men in robes tell you. Believe what you like but it does not mean what you believe is right no more than it means men in robes are wrong. Needless to say I presume you are not talking about barristers or members of the judiciary.
Little Green Men.
you had to say it didnt ya.
would anyone like to explain why their are cave paintings of men in space suits that pre date the bible by thousands of years ?
The koran pre dates the bible by 5000 years so is the bible just a cheap knock off ?
Good book but the hero dies
paulp
The koran pre dates the bible by 5000 years so is the bible just a cheap knock off ?
My understanding is that the Koran and Muslim faith date back to around 700 AD, which makes the Christian faith at least 500 years older.
Bearing in mind the dates above I think that the muslim faith is now going through what the christian faith did in the middle ages I.e. stonings and burnings and fanatacism, condeming all forms of what they believe to be heresy.
If we can wait 500 years the religion may become as moderate as the C of E.
In any case the majority of religions throughout the world teach mercy, compassion and charity. It is the interpretation and distortion of this by those seeking to control that causes the problems.
Just my two penneth really, but an interesting subject given the season at hand.
Alan
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 14:31
Strange you getting a bit googly eyed about the BAC's telling you the world is only 7,000 years old. There is as little to contradict them as there is to contradict the little green men theory.
Dan, you were doing really well til this bit. :)
But an interesting debate while it lasted. You have my respect. :thumbs
Don't think you are in a minority,danielj. As I said I try to be Christian and see the good in people most of the time. I still haven't gotten over the fact that when I went to Galway to the youth mass during John Paul 2's visit to Ireland,Bishop Eamon Casey and Fr Michael Cleary were both on the altar with the Pope. Both since found to have kids at that time. I suppose I was very naive and was still in awe of the clergy back then. My fault for being silly but since then I have grown up a little and don't have a lot of faith in the messengers,they all seem to have feet of clay. Can't speak for how it is to be Roman Catholic in the UK but in Ireland when I was growing up it was very strict as the schools were (and many still are) controlled by the clergy. It would take forever to explain what it was like. Anyway, I'm sorry if anything I said offended you,certainly not my intention to offend anyone on here.
Liam, no offence taken by me at least. I don't disagree with what you are saying about obvious hypocricy such as you mentioned about the the two members of the clergy in question. I went to a good old fashioned Christian Brothers school. And it was during the time that "the leather" was permitted. Some of the brothers were no joke but I still say they were nothing compared to some of the lay teachers. You don't need to explain as I was there too. I was no ideal pupil so got a fair share of the discipline of the time. But it was only from lay teachers that I could say I got what far exceeded a "fair" share.
I doubt there are very many schools still actually controlled by the cleregy as you would seem to understand that. Most of the schools are in practice in control of Boards of Management and the principle / teachers. Even if the cleregy wanted to lay down the law hard and fast they may not be able to do so as the impasse in recent years over schools closing for church holidays illustrates. The clergy wanted the schools to close as they traditionally have but teachers and teachers unions and some parents in a few schools in Dublin objected and refused to close the schools. The schools did not close and now a good number of the schools do not close at all.
The koran pre dates the bible by 5000 years so is the bible just a cheap knock off ?
Can't make any sense of that claim. There are books in the bible that predate by at least centuries the muslim religion itself.
Can't make any sense of that claim. There are books in the bible that predate by at least centuries the muslim religion itself.
01. Firstly the confusion arose from the word itself ‘ Kufic’ which follows the name of the town of Iraq , called Kufa . As Kufa was founded in about 638 AD , hence it is a common belief that Kufic script also existed after the city’s foundation i.e., after 638 AD . But such was not the case . Kufic script was named by Arabs long after it origins were already existed and was in use in Arabic texts . For example , if a pyramid in Egypt is extended, reconstructed and beautified in 2007 AD and is given its name after the present-ruling president of Egypt Mr. Hossne Mubarak as ‘The pyramid of Mubarak’, it doesn’t mean that this pyramid is as old as the time of Mr. Mubarak’s ruling period or his age , rather we need to research when this pyramid was made first . Any way now let us ponder on the researcher’s comment on this aspect who undertook a deep investigations on Kufic script :
(A)“ Kufic script was known in Mesopotamia at least 100 years before the foundation of Kufa, we may conjecture that it received its name from the town in which it was first put to official use...”
The actual Koran book may be from circa 700AD but the writing contained in are much older , some are copies of text from the Pyramids which pre date the Bible by a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOng way :-)
not that I am religious in any way , It was mixed in with other info I got from reseaching the Seti project.
But two things Liam, firstly I wonder who decided that priests had to be celibate - as we have seen all too often it can lead to serious problems.
Secondly, I'm not quite sure I quite believe you buggers!
As you know, I spent quite a few years travelling to Limerick with a former g/f and was often dragged to mass by her aunt, despite being a prot, and I was usually the only bloke in there!!! The men all used to sit around the gate chewing the fat and smoking until it was all over!
Now I'm only ribbing you as you know by now, but thats country church for you!
Don't see why celibacy leads to serious problems as suggested. If this was true then clergy in religions where celibacy is not a rule would not have any of these serious problems. This is definately not the case. If they were non-celibate they could still have serious problems. And is it not ovbious that it is not celibacy that is the problem its the not sticking to the celibacy that is.
I know what you are saying about church's being full of women and men staying outside. But maybe they were just dragging you to a church where it was at an extreme because usually you will see plenty of men and women inside the church and a good few of both outside as well.
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 18:19
Don't see why celibacy leads to serious problems as suggested. If this was true then clergy in religions where celibacy is not a rule would not have any of these serious problems. This is definately not the case. If they were non-celibate they could still have serious problems. And is it not ovbious that it is not celibacy that is the problem its the not sticking to the celibacy that is.
I know what you are saying about church's being full of women and men staying outside. But maybe they were just dragging you to a church where it was at an extreme because usually you will see plenty of men and women inside the church and a good few of both outside as well.
Daniel, after telling me you think the earth is only 7000 years old are you now telling me that the significant and accepted incidence of paedophilia (far far more than in any other walk of life) in the catholic church, carried out by serving clergy in many countries over a long period of time, is not a serious issue arising from celibacy? Or are there just a lot of delinquent catholic priests?
Don't take my view - read what your own press says about it. Or are you in denial about that as well?
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/jul/26/what-turns-our-catholic-priests-into-monsters/
I think you need to wind your neck in. Your earlier tosh I could let wash over me but this is plain bollocks - and offensive in its naivity.
And I'll leave you with one more thought.
Millions of people have died, yes millions, because of, for or over religion. Millions - most of them completely innocent. That includes PEOPLE I KNEW.
I knew an aetheist once who had a nasty cough - thats about the size of it.
On that basis alone you can stick your religion up your arse. :thumb2
"Don't start fires you can't put out"
Daniel, after telling me you think the earth is only 7000 years old are you now telling me that the significant and accepted incidence of paedophilia (far far more than in any other walk of life) in the catholic church, carried out by serving clergy in many countries over a long period of time, is not a serious issue arising from celibacy? Or are there just a lot of delinquent catholic priests?
Don't take my view - read what your own press says about it. Or are you in denial about that as well?
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/jul/26/what-turns-our-catholic-priests-into-monsters/
I think you need to wind your neck in. Your earlier tosh I could let wash over me but this is plain bollocks - and offensive in its naivity.
And I'll leave you with one more thought.
Millions of people have died, yes millions, because of, for or over religion. Millions - most of them completely innocent. That includes PEOPLE I KNEW.
I knew an aetheist once who had a nasty cough - thats about the size of it.
On that basis alone you can stick your religion up your arse. :thumb2
"Don't start fires you can't put out"
Paul, I certainly apologise for any offence my comments have caused. There genuinely was no intention to cause offence or irritation. I do hear what you are saying. I would not under any circumstance suggest that paedophilia by members of the cleregy can be condoned or excused and if my comments gave that impression then I again apologise as nothing of the sort would be acceptable.
Probably was naieve but I didn't see it as starting a fire. But I do hear what you are saying and from this point on I think it probably would be starting a fire for me to continue with this discussion. On that basis I will withdraw from making any further comments on the topic of this particular subject as I have no desire to be offending people or starting rows.
I hope you will accept this in the spirit in which it is offered.
Well,it was a lively debate while it lasted. Now let me see...New Years Resolution. I must not start topics that might unintentionally cause some members to inadvertently cause offence to other members:D How long will that last,I wonder?
Happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year to all members,regardless of which religion or no religion,we all share one thing, we are a bunch of sad people who should spend more time with our families and less time online.
extreme-4x4
22-12-2009, 19:23
you lot give in too easy......... considering some of the brawls that have gone on here .
and paul offended ........... bol*lo*ks, hes way too think skinned to get offended by something that is ultimately a pay to view site
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 21:59
Paul, I certainly apologise for any offence my comments have caused. There genuinely was no intention to cause offence or irritation. I do hear what you are saying. I would not under any circumstance suggest that paedophilia by members of the cleregy can be condoned or excused and if my comments gave that impression then I again apologise as nothing of the sort would be acceptable.
Probably was naieve but I didn't see it as starting a fire. But I do hear what you are saying and from this point on I think it probably would be starting a fire for me to continue with this discussion. On that basis I will withdraw from making any further comments on the topic of this particular subject as I have no desire to be offending people or starting rows.
I hope you will accept this in the spirit in which it is offered.
Daniel......I am a royal pain in the ass if you hadn't already worked that out and like nothing more than a good heated debate, the more spirited the better. And that fecker Liam knows it! :lol:lol:lol
I spent a lot of time in the Fair Isle years back in the Limerick area and the West, being engaged to a young lady from those regions, and also have old family connections to Kerry and a brother and sis-in-law in Portlaoise, so I know only too well the issues around growing up with the church in Ireland.
If thats not enough, like a few others on here I've also got Welsh blood, tinged with a touch of Romany from relatives who've done everything from working on the fairs in the early part of the century to owning the Punch and Judy show at Weston-Super-Mare during the 1800s (there goes my invite to the mayors parlour :doh) so I'm a right mongrel.
Mind you, there are a lot more colourful characters than me on here!
Please believe me when I say I therefore have no problem with anyone's religion, colour or creed - and absolutely no wish to cause offence in respect of your personal faith; I know how important it can be and the fact that I don't have any is irrelevant.
If I argue heatedly (and sometimes appear to be 'offended';) - although as Extreme says, its not a concept I recognise LOL) its usually because its something I'm quite passionate about. And if I made some references to the catholic church it was in a very wide global sense and only to seek some recognition on your part that 'the system', whether that is church, government or any other institution, doesn't always know or do best, and that you are your own man beneath all that - and its now clear you are.:)
Your apology is totally unnecessary and unexpected, but acknowledged and accepted in the spirit its given - THANK YOU and SORRY Daniel! :grouphug
You'll soon get to know this isn't a club like any other I've ever been on; we put the world to rights here; Terranos and Mavericks are small beer! and I hope you enjoy it as much as we do! :thumbs
lacroupade
22-12-2009, 22:02
.....Well,it was a lively debate while it lasted. Now let me see...New Years Resolution. I must not start topics that might unintentionally cause some members to inadvertently cause offence to other members:D How long will that last,I wonder? About as long as it took you to write it mate!
Happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year to all members,regardless of which religion or no religion,we all share one thing, we are a bunch of sad people who should spend more time with our families and less time online. Family?! Damn, I knew there was somewhere I was supposed to be!
Paul, appreciate that. I didn't take any offence. It is very hard to judge in an online discussion what impact an expression or written argument can have on people. It is a lot easier face to face when you can gauge better how to measure your words to a particular situation or person. I had considered from your reply that I had gauged things wrong and hence I considered an apology entirely in order. I expect you can understand that at the same time I am not saying I apologise for the views I hold. However, some of the points you made are a challange, especially issues raised in the newspaper article you referred to, and were not something I had been fully aware of. I have been looking them up and there are some interesting and complex issues involved and the varying and sometimes contradictory reports and studies are worth reading. And by the way I don't really believe in the little green men theory.
extreme-4x4
23-12-2009, 22:46
i had a dvd on animals that defy evolution.......
a friend lent it to me he was a bible basher
interesting though
Don't see why celibacy leads to serious problems as suggested. If this was true then clergy in religions where celibacy is not a rule would not have any of these serious problems. This is definately not the case. If they were non-celibate they could still have serious problems. And is it not ovbious that it is not celibacy that is the problem its the not sticking to the celibacy that is.
I know what you are saying about church's being full of women and men staying outside. But maybe they were just dragging you to a church where it was at an extreme because usually you will see plenty of men and women inside the church and a good few of both outside as well.
Interesting debate this though i am late into it and have missed all the fun..
You may well be right on some of the origins of the Quran though Mohammed defo came after christ.
Don't see why celibacy leads to serious problems as suggested. If this was true then clergy in religions where celibacy is not a rule would not have any of these serious problems. This is definately not the case. If they were non-celibate they could still have serious problems. And is it not ovbious that it is not celibacy that is the problem its the not sticking to the celibacy that is.
I know what you are saying about church's being full of women and men staying outside. But maybe they were just dragging you to a church where it was at an extreme because usually you will see plenty of men and women inside the church and a good few of both outside as well.
Interesting debate this though i am late into it and have missed all the fun..
You may well be right on some of the origins of the Quran though Mohammed defo came after christ.
I cant agree that the quran predates the bible though, since the same applies to the bible. Genesis, exodus, leviticus etc are way older than the modern part of the quran.
I find it Interesting all the rivalry from the Christianity, Islam and Judaism and the abominations committed by zealots of each of these, since they are the three strands of the 'abrahamic religions' - the God of Moses is the god of Mohammed and the father of christ.
Regards
Lee
Most of the schools are in practice in control of Boards of Management and the principle / teachers. Even if the cleregy wanted to lay down the law hard and fast they may not be able to do so as the impasse in recent years over schools closing for church holidays illustrates. The clergy wanted the schools to close as they traditionally have but teachers and teachers unions and some parents in a few schools in Dublin objected and refused to close the schools. The schools did not close and now a good number of the schools do not close at all.
The church still has an inordinate amount of control in education in both the north and the south. I seen something on RTE recently stating that 90% of schools have church input. 100% of schools in the North have church involvement.
Whether we like it or not, the UK and ireland are changing, becoming much more eclectic, cosmopolitan and pluralist in nature. It is high time that society becomes completely secular - like France has done. The seperation of church from state is long overdue and certainly the abuse scandal in ROI would have resulted in jail term for the bishops if they did not have the power that is inherent.
not trying to cause offence here - only an opinion
I don't really believe in the little green men theory.
This is what I find odd , you believe without any proof that a person was resurected however you cant believe that of the 1.2BN (estimated) planets out there that only 1 supports life ? :rolleyes:
I generally only believe in things that I can touch/taste/smell , can I hold my hand up and say with positive proof that aliens exist ? NOPE , can I hold my hand up and say that I have proof god exists ? NOPE
Can I calculate that it is billions of times more likeley that little green men exist and god does not ? YIP.
My personal view is that ALL religions were manufactured by the leaders at various points in history to give the poor and weak willed something to believe in , they are less likley to cause trouble if they believe in some divine being or retribution.
Thats why we have so many religions all with there own beliefs and cultures.
Here's one to get you thinking , this god person , did he arrive in a space ship ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F
extreme-4x4
24-12-2009, 00:45
i always thought it was moaning widows that went to church.
after moaning all there lives and putting there husbands in early graves they seem to turn to god
be it for company or guilt
but i only ever see old granny's inside the church and the husbands buried outside
one things for sure , when its our time we will all have a pop at the forgive me bit. ... just in case
jims-terrano
24-12-2009, 05:27
Here’s something…….
Threads about Politics, Religion and Immigration are emotive subjects. I rarely give my true opinions and views publicly on these subjects.
Does this make me oppressed?
Do I really have freedom of Speech?
Am I too frightened of the consequences of speaking out?
Do I care too much for the feelings of others?
Jim T
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