SVO

[lacroupade]

Sorry to start a new thread on this but I'm keen to have a go, and things seem to have moved on a little bit from previous posts....

Having done an awful lot of reading on the subject and spoken to several people who have done it, I'm going to have a go at running my later T2 on SVO for a while, so I'm interested in more comments from peeps who've tried it. I've found several sources of clean (i.e.not crap-filled stuff from the local chipper) veg oil that, in bulk (I'm talking 500 litres upwards) costs as little as 45p/litre, and also, if I need it, a switchable pre-heater. Its not cheap at £130 inc shipping, but even at 25/75 oil/diesel it would pay for itself in about eight tankfuls - even faster in summer at higher ratios.

It also seems clear that in summer at least, I could in theory run it on almost 100% SVO as lots of people seem to do quite happily, and the Terrano engine with its old technology and Bosch fuel pump is the best placed powerplant to take advantage - but I'd probably settle for 50/50 max.

I know I've exchanged PMs with a couple of folks on here who are running on SVO but just interested in any other FIRST HAND* experiences....e.g. how often do you check for water in the fuel pump drain, any starting problems etc..etc... :confused::confused:

(*i.e.. none of that "my mates cousins aunties best friends vets doctors gardener had a problem running his Ferrari on mazola so don't do it..."-type stuff....:eek:

And one interesting snippet for the scientists....some of you will know I have a prediliction for putting acetone in my diesel....around 120ml per fill-up...my neighbour, a retired industrial chemist who used to work for Esso tells me two things....(1) if I add approx 10% water (and like the SVO keep an eye on drain-cock) to the acetone mixer it increases the effect it has on the diesel (he did go all organic chemistry at that point but lost me in about a nano-second), but (2) the effect of acetone is apparently even greater if used in conjunction with SVO as it helps to offset viscosity problems and improve combustion.

Only time will tell.....! :nenau

So thats another plan!

[Darwin]

I ran mine on SVO for nearly a year , i still have a brand new veggie oil heater kit around somewhere but never needed it :-)

I used to get corn oil from lidl @ 39p a litre but they stopped doing it :-(

then veggie oil went up and made it pointless.

[Deleted account DD]

then veggie oil went up and made it pointless.

Youve obviously got more money to spare than me :confused: ;)

Brand new SVO from the likes of Makro or any bulk food warehouse (we have loads our area who will sell to anyone) is around £15 for 20 litres, that is 75p a litre.

Bog standard diesel is 99.9p a litre at best around here. Yes the odd bargain crops up but on a day to day basis thats it.

Therefore you save 25p a litre or in old money 4.54 x 25 = £1.13 a gallon

If a filling station knocked that off, there'd be qeues out of the door

Or put another way on a TII full fill up, 80 x 25p = £20

I put around 4 tankfuls a month through, more if we take the caravan away which means in the svo v's diesel costs I save at least £80 a month.

The only caveats are:

Make sure youre vehicle is compatable.

Dont use it when its well cold unless youve bought a heater kit.

No brainer really :thumbs

[Darwin]

Youve obviously got more money to spare than me :confused: ;)

Brand new SVO from the likes of Makro or any bulk food warehouse (we have loads our area who will sell to anyone) is around £15 for 20 litres, that is 75p a litre.

Bog standard diesel is 99.9p a litre at best around here. Yes the odd bargain crops up but on a day to day basis thats it.

Therefore you save 25p a litre or in old money 4.54 x 25 = £1.13 a gallon

If a filling station knocked that off, there'd be qeues out of the door

Or put another way on a TII full fill up, 80 x 25p = £20

I put around 4 tankfuls a month through, more if we take the caravan away which means in the svo v's diesel costs I save at least £80 a month.

The only caveats are:

Make sure youre vehicle is compatable.

Dont use it when its well cold unless youve bought a heater kit.

No brainer really :thumbs

Well just looked and tesco are doing a 2 for 1 deal , thats 53p a litre ...
so i will be tanking up this week with SVO

[Deleted account DD]

the effect of acetone is apparently even greater if used in conjunction with SVO as it helps to offset viscosity problems and improve combustion.

Only time will tell.....! :nenau

So thats another plan!

I've heard that one too, didnt do chemistry (or did ............badly for a while :o ) it must make it more volatile and thinner by breaking it down without destroying it. Keep us updated on that one :thumb2

Good luck with your trial run. The only point I would raise about WVO @ 45p a litre is that it will generally (I'm told) have a higher water content than new SVO.

Therefore check the fuel filter more often but having said that I was told SVO produced more water anyway, but when I changed my fuel filter a mechanic relative told me the amount in there was not measurably different to a straight diesel filter change.

I'm reckoning on changing my engine oil every 6-8k and fuel filter 10k, would seem like good practice anyway, I dont know what anyone else thinks.

[Deleted account DD]

Well just looked and tesco are doing a 2 for 1 deal , thats 53p a litre ...
so i will be tanking up this week with SVO

Good as, guess where I'll be off to ;) is that the 1 litre bottles?

I can see why a low mileage user wouldnt bother though.

[Darwin]

Good as, guess where I'll be off to ;) is that the 1 litre bottles?

I can see why a low mileage user wouldnt bother though.

yes thats the 1L bottles

Any 2 for £2.00 - valid from 25/03/2009 until 21/04/2009 - add 2 for offer

http://www.tesco.com/superstore/product/search.aspx?from=SEARCH&search=vegatable+oil#

[Deleted account DD]

yes thats the 1L bottles

Any 2 for £2.00 - valid from 25/03/2009 until 21/04/2009 - add 2 for offer

http://www.tesco.com/superstore/product/search.aspx?from=SEARCH&search=vegatable+oil#

I'm not registered on the tesco site so I cant follow the link but I wouldnt rush to the store, in store theyre £1.06 each or two for £2 no further discounts.Thats still £1 a litre , Makro wins round one against tesco ;)

[Darwin]

I'm not registered on the tesco site so I cant follow the link but I wouldnt rush to the store, in store theyre £1.06 each or two for £2 no further discounts.Thats still £1 a litre , Makro wins round one against tesco ;)

sorry I am a f wit

£1.06 for 2 x 1L bottles , 53p a litre

(i copied the wrong link)

[lacroupade]

Well this is what I was looking at...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=160327423882

weighs 900 kilos and they can forklift it on to my twin-axle Ifor Williams....I'd just need to decant it into smaller containers to avoid water absorption (which apparently happens if not properly sealed or theres excess air present in the container)......

At approx 5 mls/ltr, the 2500 ltr annual max would give me 12500 miles p.a if used neat - apart from a bit of offroading, a lot of my miles are motorway so don't anticipate too many issues. If I go home to Wales every weekend in it I'm using at least a tankful of fuel per week.....so it would get used alright.

I figure if I rebottle and sell half of it at say 70p/ltr, the 500 ltrs i kept would end up costing me 30p a litre....hmmmm!

[lacroupade]

sorry I am a f wit

£1.06 for 2 x 1L bottles , 53p a litre

(i copied the wrong link)

Tesco here I come for experiment No1...

[Deleted account DD]

Go for it :thumbs

You'll be able to resell @ 50p - 60p per litre no problem.

[Darwin]

This is what I have ....



http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/DarwinTania/P4150009.jpg

[Deleted account DD]

Tesco here I come for experiment No1...

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it ;) )

[lacroupade]

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it ;) )

oh well! still, it might be useful as an experiment as i have only quarter of a tank on at the moment so could sling 3-4 bottles in and see how it goes...

[Darwin]

DONT RUSH THERE I was in store about half an hour ago the offer there is £1.06 each or 2 for £2.

It is not 2 for 1 and is not going to be. (I had a big trolley and was prepared to use it ;) )


hmmmm its £2 for 2 now , I either read it wrong or they corrected the mistake

[lacroupade]

Darwin, i'll have that gadget as PM'd....the one i looked at was more expensive but had a dual circuit, one for the fuel and another for coolant circulation so that once the engine was warmed up, the coolant would warm the device (and fuel) and you could turn the heater element off...i'll see how this goes before investing in the big boy!

[Toolbox]

Some intresting reading,

RING-GUMMING.........

When exposed to heat and oxygen Veggy-Oil will start to break down. It starts to thicken and polymerise and as time goes on, it turns from a sticky brown 'goo' into a hard black Coke/Carbon material. Just take a look at the frying-pan in your favorite Greasy-Spoon!

Any unburned veggy or partially burned veggy hitting the cylinder-walls will find its way to the Piston-Ring grooves on the next upward stroke of the piston. This veggy will collect in the gap behind the rings and the small clearances either side of the ring and piston. As time heat and plenty of oxygen are available, it breaks down and sets solid, sticking the ring in its groove, so it can no longer follow the irregularities of the cylinder-wall and seal the piston, as it was intended.

This ring gumming is slow and progressive, The speed at which it happens is dependent on Many factors The main ones being the temperature of the combustion-chamber and the condition of the injector atomisation, but as it progresses, gets faster and faster, at a weirdly logarithmic rate...

This causes loss of compression pressure gradually over weeks/months of use. which contributes to the secondary effect....Often the slow and progressive slight power loss may not even be noticed, or blamed on other issues, such as blocking filters or the choice of veggy oil or even the weather (No one wants to admit even to themselves there's something nasty growing in the Crank-Case!)....

(A Diesel Engine relies on the fact that when air is compressed, it gets hot, just like the effect noticed when pumping up a bicycle tyre. It depends on this heat for the ignition of the fuel. If for some reason there is a loss of air, say, from leaky rings, the peak temperature attained by the air at the point where the piston is at Top Dead-Centre, A.K.A. Top of the cylinder, the point of maximum compression pressure, the air will be cooler than intended, thus there is a very real danger of incomplete combustion, or even a complete Misfire, where the veggy wont burn at all, Pale bluish or White-Smoke in exhaust and maybe an unsteady engine when idling)

Not all the veggy is burned Particularly when cold, so this just adds to the supply of 'Ring-Glue'

As it progresses, the amounts of unburned veggy in the combustion chamber/cylinder, increase where it will pass to the lubrication oil by the operation of the oil control rings scraping it off the bores. The Oil Scraper/Control rings, being the lowest on the piston are last to be affected, The Top ring, which is the main sealing ring and subject to the full force of combustion pressure is first to go...

(Just as well the Oil-Control ring is last to go, or the engine could have otherwise end up in a runaway condition where it burns all its lube-oil in a minute or two and hits revs the makers would never have dreamed possible...The danger to life when driving a vehicle when this happens is better not even imagined, You CANT SHUT IT DOWN!....although I dont need to imagine it...Its happened many years ago to me....)

This ring gumming is Progressive and Accelerating Process, Thats why its so Insidious!

The Veggy builds up in the engine lube-oil....

There comes a 'Critical Mass' point, (although before this, it can thicken to some extent but without careful testing the amount of contamination cannot really be assessed),- where the Mineral Lube-oil and the Veggy oil are in the right proportions with the normal engine heat and other forces to react to form a polymer, and on that fateful day the engine cools after the 'Critical-Mass' has been reached where the lube-oil will set solid, just like jelly!

-Seen it happen, Very strange stuff is evolved...Same consistancy as Dessert Jelly, with the wobble and shake to boot, but greenish black opaque and covered in a clear yellow thin oily fluid. It has a slight but weird almost linseed/white spirit type smell too....

Next engine start, youll not have any oil pressure, and if not noticed, engine destruction will occur within minutes.....

IF the Lube-Oil is changed, then the risk of Polymerisation is removed....For Now...
The Ring-Gumming continues its destructive course, untill the point that there is insufficient compression to attain combustion at all. The outcome is the engine just will not start, Maybe a tow-start will get it going but it will soon die perminently!

OK, So you keep an eye on the Lube-Oil level....Great, Spiffin, Marvelous!

This will only tell you that incomplete combustion and ring problems have already started, if you see an increase in level....
You could have an engine, maybe not in its first flush of youth or just because of its design, that normally uses a small amount of Lube-Oil anyway, so the slow dilution with veggy will keep pace with its normal oil use....The lube dilution will then not be noticed, or maybe mistaken that the engine is no longer using up its lube-oil....The outcome is inevitable....

[lacroupade]

As you say Jeremy, interesting, and in some engines probably true because of the way their fuel pumps, injection systems or combustion work, but from the wide range of stuff I've read there are engine and fuel pump types that are not recommended and types that are...bottom of the list is the Lucas rotary type pump and any common-rail or direct injection diesel.

But the T2 of course has very old-fashioned diesel technology and the top-of-the-list Bosch fuel pump.

My neighbour (the retired industrial chemist) has used vegoil for years - his current Pug estate has done 90k-odd miles on a mix varying from 30-75% vegoil and no problems ever - and he is adamant that provided you maintain viscosity either by mixing or preheating (and he only does the former), there won't be any.

Its like my acetone thing...you'll find plenty of 'experts' out there willing to tell you it will bugger your fuel system and rot all your pipework and seals....well it hasn't done a thing to my older T2 in seven years and 120k miles....so i think i'll proceed with caution but optimism! :):)

[lacroupade]

and heres the result of the initial experiment!

Visited Sainsbury first to relieve them of their last two bottles of vegoil (two at £3.06 for three litres)...then on to tescos for another 3 x 3 litre bottles at only £2.93 each. Tank was just under quarter full, so around 18-20 litres..plus 15 litres of vegoil. so roughly 60-40 diesel-vegoil, oh and a splosh of acetone.

went for a spin.

after a few miles, surprised to report:

1. Pulls away a tad more smoothly in lower gears
2. A bit quieter all round.
3. Definitely pulls a bit better in mid-range.

Could all be perception but I honestly don't think so - I used regular roads that I know the trucks performance on.

But heres the rub...if I went to 50-50 ratio in summer at the prices I can bulk buy at, then thats like getting 37.5 mpg on regular price fuel.

so am i prepared to risk it? You bet.

[Toolbox]

I think your right about direct injection suffering more from the above and cold running on anything over perhaps 50%, I think if the oil is available at the right price then a 2 tank system with heater would be the way forward and worth doing if you want to go down the 100% svo route, being able to start on derv and warm engine up and then stop on derv.
Your correct about the Bosch pumps being ok, but the VP44 that I think is in the 3ltr T2 isn’t good on it as far as I understand.

[lacroupade]

Yes i think i'll limit it to 50/50...I'll give that 'permanently on' pump I've just bought off darwin a go for a while, and if this works OK I'll invest in the more expensive German version (£100-odd) that has a 340-watt pre-heater AND coolant connections so that you can switch the former off when the engine is hot and allow the cooling circuit to do the preheating...37mpg will be quite adequate for me thanks!

[lacroupade]

http://www.elsbett.com/gb/about-us/introduction.html

these are the makers of the preheater I mentioned above....

[extreme-4x4]

i was thinking of this....

but can i just do a 50 50 mix throughout the summer for now
without the preheat stuff... just shove it in if you like

what is svo
standard veg oil ???

like crisp n dry ? obviously a cheaper version or pointless i recon

[Darwin]

i was thinking of this....

but can i just do a 50 50 mix throughout the summer for now
without the preheat stuff... just shove it in if you like

what is svo
standard veg oil ???

like crisp n dry ? obviously a cheaper version or pointless i recon

SVO = straight vegetable oil

eg unblended and without additives

ps during the summer you should be able to go 90% svo 10% derv

winter 50/50

[lacroupade]

Colin I swear you should notice a bit of improvement....we'll nip to Tesco saturday...their cheapest straight vegetable oil...£2.93 for a three-litre bottle, so already cheaper than diesel!

I think the cheapest (and apparently the best) as above contains rape seed oil...

[extreme-4x4]

Colin I swear you should notice a bit of improvement....we'll nip to Tesco saturday...their cheapest straight vegetable oil...£2.93 for a three-litre bottle, so already cheaper than diesel!

ill be in macro tomorrow. lol

[lacroupade]

ill be in macro tomorrow. lol

i'll give you some acetone saturday unless you see pete in the meantime....about 120ml in a full tank, will help combustion...

[lacroupade]

QUESTION - as I'm in bed and not under the truck, does anyone know (i) if there is any flexible fuel pipe between the filter and the pump, and (ii) what size pipe it is..6/8/10mm??

[Deleted account DD]

Darwin what power is the heater? I read an article a while back that was discussing electrical v's water heated svo warmers.

Both had their merits but the conclusion was a combined one was best.

Water heated ones are slower to warm the oil so that doesnt help at start up whereas an electrical one that warms the oil sufficiently at start up frazzles it later.

I dont know one way or the other having not used one , I'd be interested in your conclusions before you bought :thumb2

(just noticed lacroupes earlier post )

[Darwin]

Darwin what power is the heater? I read an article a while back that was discussing electrical v's water heated svo warmers.

Both had their merits but the conclusion was a combined one was best.

Water heated ones are slower to warm the oil so that doesnt help at start up whereas an electrical one that warms the oil sufficiently at start up frazzles it later.

I dont know one way or the other having not used one , I'd be interested in your conclusions before you bought :thumb2

(just noticed lacroupes earlier post )

The only problems I ever experienced was starting on days when there was frost , this led to poor starting and/or engine light comming on occasionally and sluggish becuase my 100% SVO didnt flow fast enough (it was unheated and umixed)
(hot water heating doesnt work quick enough especially as I only do 22 miles a day)

and 2 the smell ...... people kept complaining about the smell of the new chip shop down the road :D but I made that better with a few squirts of baby oil (no really).

On another note : if you are going to use ''used'' oil make sure you filter it COLD , normally bits of dead animal are cooked it oil , animal fat is a solid , you dont want lard in your pipes.

[Deleted account DD]

Jeremy, very interesting points about the deterioration of the engine internals, but surely something similar is going on at whatever rate to whatever degree as an engine ages?

As far as cylinder and piston ring contamination goes a dose of millers via the fuel system should help alleviate that.

As for the "runaway" syndrome. Thats very old science. Dieseling as its known has been around ever since any oil + air + compression were mixed together and has historically occured in engines and shock absorbers (to name two items) not set up correctly or unservicable/defective. As an explosion the results depend how contained it is ..................... or isnt ;)

My TII has never ran better, it still uses its min amount of lube and does not suffer any form of run on at all , over 10 000 miles of mixed svo use. Using the white paper and solvent I couldnt see any unusual contamination or substances in the poil and no excess water when I changed it.

I do agree without reservation regarding running problems and misfires when the oil solidifies or becomes glutinous. I've had that when I was caught out in a cold snap which produced poor running symptoms similar to those in the quoted article, its never happened otherwise.

Its all interesting stuff :thumbs


For the record SVO=Single veg oil, not 100% correct because it could be a belnd of different oils but basically clean, uncontaminted and not yet used. WVO= waste veg oil and can come filtered unfiltered, dry wet etc etc.

[Deleted account DD]

Darwin, I get the chip shop comments too :lol:lol:lol

Bloke at the car wash loves it, my kids hate it...............cant please everyone all the time :lol:lol:lol

[lacroupade]

For the record I wouldn't touch WVO for this use - its really only good for biofuel production from what I've seen....which might be another idea since I have the space! Just unsure what the implications of making and reselling it are - which you'd probably want to do cover the hardware setup costs....

[extreme-4x4]

the only trouble i see buying bulk and selling on , is you become responsible for other peoples problems and faults they get.

is it worth the headache

[lacroupade]

get 'em to sign a disclaimer.

or buy a cheaper biodiesel convertor LOL

been to makro yet then?

or can't you find the stepladder?

[Terranosaurus]

For the record I wouldn't touch WVO for this use - its really only good for biofuel production from what I've seen....which might be another idea since I have the space! Just unsure what the implications of making and reselling it are - which you'd probably want to do cover the hardware setup costs....

If you start selling bio it becomes taxable.

I run my van and my T2 on Bio from UKBIO in shefield. Run 50-75% bio depending on the weather. No problems.

I used to run SVO (straight vegetable oil) at anything up to 100% when hot and then add a % of dino just before I got home to dilute it so it would start properly next morning but as I can claim the VAT back on fuel Bio is cheaper for me than SVO which has no VAT, and I don't have room to buy SVO in bulk to get the cost down.

WVO needs cold settling to remove solids both settled (from the bottom) and solidified (from the top) and then hot filtering (it filters easier when thin) then stand again to settle the water out better wen its hot and thin. You really have to have the space and time to treat WVO for use and even more for proper bio production. + many chippies etc are now charging for waste oil as they know there is a demand for it - proper chippies used dripping anyway.

[lacroupade]

If you start selling bio it becomes taxable.

I run my van and my T2 on Bio from UKBIO in shefield. Run 50-75% bio depending on the weather. No problems.

I used to run SVO (straight vegetable oil) at anything up to 100% when hot and then add a % of dino just before I got home to dilute it so it would start properly next morning but as I can claim the VAT back on fuel Bio is cheaper for me than SVO which has no VAT, and I don't have room to buy SVO in bulk to get the cost down.

WVO needs cold settling to remove solids both settled (from the bottom) and solidified (from the top) and then hot filtering (it filters easier when thin) then stand again to settle the water out better wen its hot and thin. You really have to have the space and time to treat WVO for use and even more for proper bio production. + many chippies etc are now charging for waste oil as they know there is a demand for it - proper chippies used dripping anyway.

had to smile at the last bit! how true....mmmm decent chips!

hadn't thought about the tax angle - good point.

just curious about your comment about adding a bit of dino on switchoff, since without a proper dual tank system, allowing you to switch back to 100% diesel just before you stop and thus flush the fuel lines with neat diesel for better starting, I'd be a bit concerned about trying to start with a high % of SVO in the pipes, especially if the weathers starting to turn...

But how does adding a small amount to the tank ensure it ends at the pointy end of things ready for next day? surely it just gets diluted in the tank? or did you have a trick???

[Terranosaurus]

had to smile at the last bit! how true....mmmm decent chips!

hadn't thought about the tax angle - good point.

just curious about your comment about adding a bit of dino on switchoff, since without a proper dual tank system, allowing you to switch back to 100% diesel just before you stop and thus flush the fuel lines with neat diesel for better starting, I'd be a bit concerned about trying to start with a high % of SVO in the pipes, especially if the weathers starting to turn...

But how does adding a small amount to the tank ensure it ends at the pointy end of things ready for next day? surely it just gets diluted in the tank? or did you have a trick???

Trick was I used to plan how much fuel I would need for the day and put that in during the day when everything was up to temp, if I ran out I'd have some spare on board anyway but never did. Then I would run the tank pretty low at the end of the day, then add £5 or 10 of diesel before going home, so I would have something like 50% veg oil in the tanks and pipes when I switched off so start up would be good but I could then run on higher percentages - bit like having a twin tank set up but without the expense.

[lacroupade]

Hmmm cunning! I think I'll stick to 50/50 max for now and see how it goes.

No problems so far but have noticed that it splutters a bit on start up from cold and blows a bit of blue smoke. Now I know they say using SVO can expose problems and since it runs perfectly when even slightly warm (the smoke and splutter lasts only a few seconds) I'm wondering if my plugs might want changing. I've noticed that it seems to take at least twice as long as the older truck for the preheat light to extinguish and I'd put that down to either a weakish battery (75AH of unknown vintage, so was planning at least a 90/100 AH replacement soon) or dodgy glowplugs.

Since they aren't that expensive, is there any mileage in just swapping them out? I have a meter but not sure where to stick it - if you know what I mean (Team Wales keep quiet).

[extreme-4x4]

Hmmm cunning! I think I'll stick to 50/50 max for now and see how it goes.

No problems so far but have noticed that it splutters a bit on start up from cold and blows a bit of blue smoke. Now I know they say using SVO can expose problems and since it runs perfectly when even slightly warm (the smoke and splutter lasts only a few seconds) I'm wondering if my plugs might want changing. I've noticed that it seems to take at least twice as long as the older truck for the preheat light to extinguish and I'd put that down to either a weakish battery (75AH of unknown vintage, so was planning at least a 90/100 AH replacement soon) or dodgy glowplugs.

Since they aren't that expensive, is there any mileage in just swapping them out? I have a meter but not sure where to stick it - if you know what I mean (Team Wales keep quiet).

i just had visions of an old cary on film .... the one with the daffodil :lol:lol:lol

[lacroupade]

i just had visions of an old cary on film .... the one with the daffodil :lol:lol:lol

kiss my hairy a**...

[Deleted account DD]

If you start selling bio it becomes taxable.



I've never considered selling it so I've never taken any notice of suppliers regs but I do seem to remember the latest white paper (searching for it now :confused: ) allows the magic 2500litre threshold too????????

[Deleted account DD]

and on a lighter note have a read of this http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/footnmouth/biofuel.html (http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/footnmouth/biofuel.html)

The asda managers comments about healthy eating are :thumb2


(ps old article so the bit about tax etc has changed)

[Deleted account DD]

I've never considered selling it so I've never taken any notice of suppliers regs but I do seem to remember the latest white paper (searching for it now :confused: ) allows the magic 2500litre threshold too????????

Here we go, now this refers to biodiesel but as HMRC seem to bunch alternative road fuels together I'm pretty certain it covers vege oil as a straight supply rather than manf, so according to the first paragraph:

<!-- InstanceBeginEditable name="breadcrumb" -->




<!-- InstanceEndEditable --> <!-- InstanceBeginEditable name="Title" -->"Revenue & Customs Brief 43/07<!-- InstanceEndEditable -->

<!-- InstanceBeginEditable name="Content" --> Follow up to Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07 on Biofuels Simplification



Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07 (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief3707.htm)

issued on 19 April 2007 confirmed that the following changes applying to biofuel producers were to be introduced:


A production threshold of 2,500 litres per annum below which producers will not need to enter premises, submit returns or pay duty, and
A reduction in the frequency of returns for all but the largest producers (defined as those producing over 450,000 litres per annum) from monthly to quarterly.

We can now confirm that these measures will be introduced on 30 June 2007."








:confused: still like clarification though

[lacroupade]

interesting to know if the biofuel and SVO limits are mutually exclusive....

Liked the Asda article....nipped into Tesco on the way home tonight and stuck 6x3ltr bottles in the trolley at £2.93 each just to continue my experiment...a little old lady giggled at me and said "gosh you do a lot of cooking dear!" - I just grinned! :naughty:naughty

[zippy656]

cant you ask where your local chippy gets theres from, they must get it cheaper...

[lacroupade]

cant you ask where your local chippy gets theres from, they must get it cheaper...

oh i'm about to buy 1000 litres of spanking new stuff at 50p/litre!!

[extreme-4x4]

thats 5 200 litre drums init .... dumb question but are you getting it in 5 drums or do you need to buy a storage tank so they can pump it in?

only askin cos your probably paying 25.00 for each drum before you get oil in it ?????

[(RIP) PLANK]

at 50p a litre i can undersand, but at about £1 a litre is there any point?

there are no benefits and a fair amount of associated risk!

and on top of that it is heresy, in the middle ages people were burned at the stake for less (or was it steak?) diesel engines run on diesel!


And above all that I am a coward!

[lacroupade]

thats 5 200 litre drums init .... dumb question but are you getting it in 5 drums or do you need to buy a storage tank so they can pump it in?

only askin cos your probably paying 25.00 for each drum before you get oil in it ?????

no it comes in a 1000 litre caged tank that you can later flog as a water butt!

[extreme-4x4]

at 50p a litre i can undersand, but at about £1 a litre is there any point?

there are no benefits and a fair amount of associated risk!

and on top of that it is heresy, in the middle ages people were burned at the stake for less (or was it steak?) diesel engines run on diesel!


And above all that I am a coward!
me too..... but i tried kerro, and enjoyed.

i recon the bloke up the road would change the engine for 250.00 and you'd possibly get an engine for another 250.00
so if you kill it its going to cost 500.00 minimum.
how long would it take to save the 500 on fuel in miles

using crisp and dry , could be the new anarchy

[extreme-4x4]

no it comes in a 1000 litre caged tank that you can later flog as a water butt!


seen them farmers use em...
so when you got 2 or three of them can you buy pumped in to your own tanks... possible saving ??????

[lacroupade]

at 50p a litre i can undersand, but at about £1 a litre is there any point?

there are no benefits and a fair amount of associated risk!

and on top of that it is heresy, in the middle ages people were burned at the stake for less (or was it steak?) diesel engines run on diesel!


And above all that I am a coward!

the 97p a litre experiment is just that - i wanted to see how it ran, and its an improvement - not a startling one but an improvement - not to mention being 12p a litre less than diesel.

and as has been pointed out, Diesel's original engine ran on peanut oil....

and what risk? theres lot of conjecture but the hard evidence is there - its been commonly done in Europe for many years.....and these trucks have the most vegoil friendly combination you can have (older engine technology, i.e. not common rail or direct injection, plus the Bosch fuel pump)....so I see no risk whatsoever, except that I might be running my truck at the equivalent of 75 a litre or less (at 50/50 mix)....or the equivalent of 37 mpg against full price fuel...

[Terranosaurus]

the 97p a litre experiment is just that - i wanted to see how it ran, and its an improvement - not a startling one but an improvement - not to mention being 12p a litre less than diesel.

How does that work? Diesels about 100p/L at the moment

[(RIP) PLANK]

so are you paying £1.07 a litre for fuel? I paid 98p two days ago! in that case your point seems better. I htink for me its the risk of 'down time' with any problems caused as that has to be added to the repair costs.

Goon on all you 'mavericks' (pardon the pun) for being brave enugh to experiment!

[lacroupade]

How does that work? Diesels about 100p/L at the moment

average £1.09 around Oxford area for diesel. but then we're rich ba5tards and we can afford it.....my arse! :eek:

[lacroupade]

Quick update on the earlier post about cold starting - this morning I left it a few seconds more after the glowplug light had gone off and it started fine, no drama, no smoke....so happy again!

Seems I was probably a bit quick on the throttle last time! :thumbs:D

[extreme-4x4]

ok so in plain words for us stupid people.

how much of this oil can we burn legally without paying any tax on it.

[Darwin]

ok so in plain words for us stupid people.

how much of this oil can we burn legally without paying any tax on it.

2500 Litres

[lacroupade]

2500 Litres

every year. thats approx 5 miles per litre x 2500 = 12500 miles at half the price of diesel....and when it goes up again, the saving is even greater.

[extreme-4x4]

even more... if its based on trust. i guess they cant regulate how much you actually put in

but its good to know what to say though

[Terranosaurus]

The suggetsion is you keep records - if you do high miles and have no proof of using other fuel I guess they could assume you were using purely alternative fuels.

[extreme-4x4]

The suggetsion is you keep records - if you do high miles and have no proof of using other fuel I guess they could assume you were using purely alternative fuels.
and that would be based on last years mot millage i guess.
i recon im doing 15k this year it used to be 35-40k a year .
hope the speedo is cable driven:sly

[lacroupade]

Colin its important to understand several things:

1. If the Revenue decided to spot check and found you running on SVO (or a mix), once you've had the argument about "its only 50/50 guv" and they have or have not agreed to a compromise, they are entitled to assume you've been using it all along.

2. They are then entitled to require you to produce receipts to prove you've not bought and used more than 2500 litres in the last year.

3. Because they are also then entitled to assume you've run that mix all of the time, even if you didn't, if they find by calculating your mileage from MoT, servicing or other records (??!!) that you would have used 2501 litres, then you pay tax on the WHOLE LOT - the 2500 is not an allowance in that sense. But if your mileage is demonstrably such that you could only have used 2500 litres of SVO or less, then you're in the clear.

So the answer is:

A. Keep any receipts for SVO you purchase.
B. Make sure that either your mileage cannot be accurately ascertained by anyone, or that you have clear records to demonstrate what it was.

BUT, I think the reality is that this is not a widespread practice, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed it to happen (it was previously ALL taxable). Mainly because newer common rail and direct injection diesels can't do it, and many common fuel pump types (Lucas etc..) can't do it....that doesn't leave that many vehicles apart from the good old Bosch-equipped Mav/Terrano, plus VW/Mercedes as the most common...

So keep your receipts, don't record your mileage anywhere and make sure its a 'second car' would be my advice...:kissy

[lacroupade]

and that would be based on last years mot millage i guess.
i recon im doing 15k this year it used to be 35-40k a year .
hope the speedo is cable driven:sly

it most definitely is! :naughty

[Deleted account DD]

The suggetsion is you keep records - if you do high miles and have no proof of using other fuel I guess they could assume you were using purely alternative fuels.

Its virtually unenforceable. they cannot prosecute on speculative presumptions based on mot mileage or otherwise !

[lacroupade]

Its virtually unenforceable. they cannot prosecute on speculative presumptions based on mot mileage !
daved not clear how its speculative to deduct last MoT mileage from current speedo reading to arrive at a "gotcha" - I mean that would be the only evidence in, say, a clocking case surely?

Isn't the more important issue that TBH the authorities aren't really interested any more given the small number of users, the 'allowance' and the complexity of proving how long it was being used for etc..? (Users? blimey I sound like a dopehead now!)...

[Deleted account DD]

Hi, for starters you do not have to notify or record anyone anywhere if you change your clock ;) I could change my knackered 91 000 milo for a 150 000 milo tomorrow perfectly lawfully with no come back. For there to be any remote chance of it being put into an unlawful context they would have to prove my intent to commit an offence with it as part of that, as that would never be present it cant be proven beyond reasonable doubt :thumbs (NOT balance of probability)

There are intelligence sharing protocols in existance and I'm not convinced this would warrant accessing the data.

On the subject of keeping receipts, I have in front of me (literally) at the mo a receipt for 60 litres svo from makro.........gues what guv.............thats all I've ever used in the truck. Prove otherwise.

Does anyone know of any enforcement agency that has the resources to bring a prosecution against an individual wanting a realistic chance of conviction ? I certainly dont.

They havent intro'd the 2500 figure as a charitable measure. (imho)

You , Lacroupe , are spot on. The flip side is red diesel , thats an absolute, none on the public highway. Theyve gotcha there :thumbs

I stress I'm not advocating or guiding any offences wwaaaayyyy from it, this is all info/common sense already in the public domain.

However if you run 25 hgv's each with 100+ litres in the tank @ 1 time youre inviting bother .....they'll go for you :thumb2

[Terranosaurus]

HMRC won't take you to court they'll just bill you and then you'd better pay em quick or they will then take you to court for non payment of tax. In the meantime of course you'll be trying to prove otherwise to what they say - anyone VAT reistered here?

[Deleted account DD]

HMRC won't take you to court they'll just bill you and then you'd better pay em quick or they will then take you to court for non payment of tax. In the meantime of course you'll be trying to prove otherwise to what they say - anyone VAT reistered here?

The burden of proof remains that the tax is due, not that it may be ;) irrespective of whether roadside penalties are issued or court proceeding initiated

[(RIP) PLANK]

interestingly, pre 2000 direct injection transit vans run on svo very well they do have a bosch pump though (well most do so check if you have one it may be a lucas or epic!)

If you keep all your SVO receipts to proe how much you bought it seems a bit 'back to front to me' I have not used any svo in a vehicle ever, and so have no receipts, and can not prove i have bought less than 2500 litres in a year? so surley keeping all your receipts is not neccesarily proof of anything, and could only really 'prove' beyond doubt 'guilt' rather than 'innocence'? I am looking at it from a utilitarioan philosopy (J.S.Mill) point of view, which is largley the foundation of the logic/ assumptions of Uk criminal law.

[Deleted account DD]

Absolutely, as I said earlier:



On the subject of keeping receipts, I have in front of me (literally) at the mo a receipt for 60 litres svo from makro.........gues what guv.............thats all I've ever used in the truck. Prove otherwise.




That would not go anywhere even during these strange times we live in :naughty

[lacroupade]

interestingly, pre 2000 direct injection transit vans run on svo very well they do have a bosch pump though (well most do so check if you have one it may be a lucas or epic!)

If you keep all your SVO receipts to proe how much you bought it seems a bit 'back to front to me' I have not used any svo in a vehicle ever, and so have no receipts, and can not prove i have bought less than 2500 litres in a year? so surley keeping all your receipts is not neccesarily proof of anything, and could only really 'prove' beyond doubt 'guilt' rather than 'innocence'? I am looking at it from a utilitarioan philosopy (J.S.Mill) point of view, which is largley the foundation of the logic/ assumptions of Uk criminal law.

Rumpole couldn't have put it better! :bow

[extreme-4x4]

interestingly, pre 2000 direct injection transit vans run on svo very well they do have a bosch pump though (well most do so check if you have one it may be a lucas or epic!)

If you keep all your SVO receipts to proe how much you bought it seems a bit 'back to front to me' I have not used any svo in a vehicle ever, and so have no receipts, and can not prove i have bought less than 2500 litres in a year? so surley keeping all your receipts is not neccesarily proof of anything, and could only really 'prove' beyond doubt 'guilt' rather than 'innocence'? I am looking at it from a utilitarioan philosopy (J.S.Mill) point of view, which is largley the foundation of the logic/ assumptions of Uk criminal law.


good point... so if you do keep receipts it dont mean you kept them all.
but they cant prove you have not......

so its back to trust then :confused:

[lacroupade]

good point... so if you do keep receipts it dont mean you kept them all.
but they cant prove you have not......

so its back to trust then :confused:

no its back to they can't be bothered cos it turned out to be a storm in a teacup. I mean how many people do YOU know that drive a deep fat fryer? In fact thats its new name - the Terrano 2.7 TDiDFF..

I'm gonna get a big fat 'carbon neutral' sticker for my truck next :):):)

[lacroupade]

and just to prove how witty I am - it hasn't been chipped! :D:D

[(RIP) PLANK]

the carbon neutral thing converning SVO and bio diesel is a myth! it produces more c02 (very slightly) and there is no offset! As the extra that is grown is often at the exspense of food and is adding to global starvation and poverty!

Plus 80% of the source plant is waste and has to bio-degrade and produces methane in the process which is more harmfull than co2!

most veg oil fuels are plam oil, and they are cutting down rain forests to grow that!

so the only advantage is cash saving!

its one of those things, if you add veg oil, or a solar panel, or an electric motor etc. avery one uses bio and eco as an autoatic assumption, which is more often than not wrong!

[lacroupade]

have to disagree with SVO....I'll dig the science out if I need to but I think you'll find that no plant can produce more CO2 than it absorbed as it grew (which is why greenery is so important.....so its carbon neutral...even if it wasn't its waaaaay better than diesel isn't it!

And with rape (which is the most used cheap 'n cheerful veg oil), theres minimal plant waste which in any case acts as fertiliser when ploughed back in....

just the same with burning wood...! and since I planted over 100 trees last year on 3/4 of an acre (mostly ash for long-term fuel) I feel very smug :)

but you hit the nail on the head with methane etc...the plant and animal kingdom outdo mankind in so-called greenhouse gas production by a factor of about 1000.....man-made global warming? Pish and tosh.

[(RIP) PLANK]

sorry for the confusion, i wasnt implying that a plant produced more co2 than it absorbed, but that as a fuel veg oil can produce slightly higher co2 emissions than othe fuels, and so is at that stage not co2 neutral! Also a naturaly decaying plant, or a plant used as food does not release its carbon as co2 into the air! and so as using a plant as fuel is the least co2 friendly option!

rape is the european favorite veg oil but the growth of veg oil fuels has seen a leap in palm oil and soya oil prouction both of which yeils much more waste than rape, but even with rape, the volume of methane produced from plants used as a fuel source must be included in the environmental impact of the fuel source (ven whwn polughed in!) and they usualy arent counted and so make veg oil seem a cleaner source of fuel than it really is!

As fr fire wood i'm with you there, the co2 it produces burning it causes less environmental damage than letting it bio degrade and causing methan ploution, so a bit of wod smoke is in esscence good for the environment! and eaving it to rot is environmental bad news and plain wastefull!

You ought to pollard a few of your ash trees i make walking sticks and they are a great wood to work with! :thumbs

But i htnk essentially there are too many people using too many cars for oe planet to sustain and i reall y dont know what the answer is, btu whatever we burn in our tanks wont make a great deal of difference to the environment!

the original idea behine 'bio-fuels' was sustainability when everyine was panicing the oil was running out, and can offer a an alternative to fossil fuels as a long tern replacment, but! coal and oil gave off there methane millions of vears ago and as such are now ,'methane neutral' they are also are basically and when you think about it if a piece of plant matter has a given amount of carbon then coal and a log both polute with the same carbon emmisions, just coal doesnt give of methane! so in some senses coal is a cleaner option.

but it is apparently runnig out, and that is where the real 'BIO' indutry it focused!

[Deleted account DD]

Isnt all of this carbon neutral, mans killing the planet, temperatures are changing and we are solely responsible really just a load of bollocks and a variant on the modern craze of guilt tripping?

Surely its the inevitable next ice age en route and you can hug as many trees, recycle as many glass bottles (carefully splitting green and brown from clear) as you can be bothered to but the planets going to change anyhow :confused:

[(RIP) PLANK]

daved, I agree totaly!

we just swap one sort of polution for another.

I see people sitting in a traffic queue for 20 mins with the engine running to put a copy of the times, a shiraz bottle and a marmalade jar in a recycling bin, and drive back to the office feeling smug!

so if yo save a few quid using veg oil or bio fuel etc. fair enough, im all for saving money

but i think it is important we dont delude ourselves we are come kind of eco warriors or saving the planet by doing it!

the planet will do what it does, and we are arrogant to think we can do anyhting to change it! we are just like fleas on a dogs back!

[lacroupade]

egg-saktly!

[extreme-4x4]

here is my green bit....
if we are using a fuel that costs half as much to buy (svo). we could have a day or 2 every week not driving to work to pay for the expensive diesel

then we would have time to do a spot of gardening and tree hugging. while we chop our logs for the evening sitting in front of the wood burner.

i dont follow this global warming poop... i say the last bit of ice thats fast going, is just the end of the ice age. then it will get warm and it will all burn, cause big clouds of black smoke filling the skies and then we will prob get another ice age

its just how the planet works
ok we aint slowing it down but who cares not me

i just wana save a few quid to feed the family

[Deleted account DD]

I'm with you on that :thumbs

Our council has gone recycling (and regulation :doh ) crackers. Instead of one bin lorry coming around collecting everything, crushing it and then whatever, yesterday we had three different ones all collecting different things.

And it takes me bloody hours to sort everything into blue boxes, white bags, clear bags, wheely bin, remeber which week it is.................arrrgghhhhhh :D

[lacroupade]

I'm with you on that :thumbs

Our council has gone recycling (and regulation :doh ) crackers. Instead of one bin lorry coming around collecting everything, crushing it and then whatever, yesterday we had three different ones all collecting different things.

And it takes me bloody hours to sort everything into blue boxes, white bags, clear bags, wheely bin, remeber which week it is.................arrrgghhhhhh :D

I wouldn't mind but it all either ends up at the tip anyway, or piled up in some Indian backwater, having been transported there by ships, one of the biggest CO2 producers there are...

[lacroupade]

You ought to pollard a few of your ash trees i make walking sticks and they are a great wood to work with! :thumbs



now he tells me! I love a good stick....post some pics of what you've done will you Plank?

[Deleted account DD]

I wouldn't mind but it all either ends up at the tip anyway, or piled up in some Indian backwater, having been transported there by ships, one of the biggest CO2 producers there are...

Very true indeed , in fact as a bit of an irony our local recycling depot caught fire earlier this week and is still ongoing. Loads of fumes and smoke. Very Green :D

[lacroupade]

Little update - Extreme and I went down to Bracknell last night to see eboy and pick up the tyres he kindly gave me....stuck some more veggie in and ran down there at full tilt on approx 80% - still going really well and no problems....mind you the missus is having a purple fit now shes found out, especially as I stayed in Abingdon all weekend working on the house with Extreme, but I've said I'm going down next weekend - trouble is I'm turning up Friday with a 1000-litre tank of veggie on the trailer collected from Newport, and Sat am I'm on Team Wales camping weekend! still you've got to have some quality time eh?!

[lacroupade]

At the bottom of the fuel filter theres a plastic knurled knob with a bit sticking out (I can feel it but can't see it) - I assume this is how you drain off any water that might collect, or is it for something else? I've opened it and got a mittful of diesel and SVO but nothing else....

[extreme-4x4]

yep thats where you drain any water buddy...

i guess you got no water then:cool:

[lacroupade]

yep thats where you drain any water buddy...

i guess you got no water then:cool:

not yet anyways! :):):)

[Terranosaurus]

I had a dose of Bio Boost 1000 (http://greenfuels.co.uk/product/bioboost-1000.aspx) put in my vans tank the other day. definitely made a difference. It would pull a couple of hundred more revs in each gear and was generally more lively/powerful. The Bio place I use are planning on putting it into the mix as standard. Going to put the price up by 0.5p/L but should be worth it. Other people who've had a dose or two on a test basis are reporting improved economy as well as power so should pay for itself.


Shouldn't get anymore water in SVO or Bio than with normal ino iesel. Only WVO is likely to give water problems and then only if it isn't dried properly.

[lacroupade]

Terra does that stuff only work on Bio or would it have an impact on, say, a 50/50 SVO/diesel mix as well, and what about straight diesel for that matter? If its a cetane booster like Millers DP+ then I guess it ought to, but....

[Terranosaurus]

I'd have thought it would have an effect on all, but as its formulated for Bio perhaps its better with it or has other effects too. I'll ask when I fill up.

[lacroupade]

I'd have thought it would have an effect on all, but as its formulated for Bio perhaps its better with it or has other effects too. I'll ask when I fill up.

Please...looks worth a punt with SVO anyway.

Dont forget PM so I can send you cheque for spotties and clips....leaving for wales shortly til Monday....