TERRANO to Bulgaria towing

[barny]

Hi All,Didn't know where to put this message but,...

Everything went great travelling and towing 2000 miles to Bulgaria,German police weren't happy with the A-frame towing device and threatened us with 500 euro fine,said second vehicle should be on trailor !managed to get away with it and detached a-frame and mrs drove the other 100 miles into Austrian border and then hitched up again,no bother in Austria,Hungary,Romania or Bulgaria unless we were just lucky :smile:
4 days of mainly motorway driving sent me a bit stir crazy though,the Romanian roadworks for 100 miles and the peasoup fog that made me drive 20 mile an hour in BG really p****d me off,last leg of journey took 22 hours non stop as i wanted to get 'home'and not sleep in the terano another night :roll:
So there we are,safe and sound,could have sold both 4x4's the following day as the Bulgarians loved them,but after that trip i think i'll keep em for a while... :lol:

[Thermostat]

Good to hear you made it safe with little problems (apart from GERMAN POLICE).

:smile:

[Deleted Member D]

Glad your back safe and well done bud. -welldone-
Glad the motor worked well for you too. :smile:
Which was the most scenic place to travel thru for you ?

[barny]

Wow,that's a hard one,as they all have fantastic scenery albiet from the motorway!Latter half of Germany was stunning and the services were outstanding,even had self cleaning toilet seats !!! 8O
Austria was much the same,Romania had stunning mountain passes and so into Bulgaria at the top end near Vidin/Montana towards Sophia.
I cant believe what a beautiful country i am know living in,i thought Wales was pretty good and Devon/Cornwall but Bulgaria....wow,oh and its nothing like sunny beach etc(like when you go on holiday to BG)reminds me of Blackpool or Torromolinos some places on the coast are typical beer/booze etc while others are still natural dunes etc,inland its proper countryside with donkey's and carts,bears and wolves in the forests !No polution or chemicals,just back to basics.. 8)
Surprising how many Brits we met on the way...going there...emigrating or going to do some work on thier second home.
I'm sorry to say but nearly 2 weeks back in UK was enough for me,especially when paying the prices (£40 for 5 ltr oil)!!!! 8O seeing the weather and the traffic.........

[Deleted Member D]

So av I got it right ? Your now living in Bulgaria ? :?

[Deleted Member]

Pics would be great,ya lucky sod!! :wink: :lol: :lol:

[zippy656]

its a long way to come for some chips though Cosmic..

[barny]

Yep,been there 14 months and loving it,can still get chips at Mcdonalds (not the same as the ones me Mrs cooks though) :lol:
Will try and post pics,did have a go earlier but failed will try tom,ok

[zippy656]

look forwards to teh pics mate

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

a frame? on what?

afaik thats illegal here unless the 'trailer' is <750 kg gross / no brakes.

reckon you were more than lucky as they say.

bit like dollies, only legit for towing broken down vehicles.

[barny]

Yeh!Guess i was lucky then,i tried to get the A-frame with the brake mech that fits the towed car but no luck,what's the defenition of a broken down car,oh and i towed suzi grand vitara 2000 soft-top 8)

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

probably one that is broken down, being recovered to a garage by a tow truck, aa van etc.

braked ones scarse, plus reliably linking into brakes difficult. even then would it activate all wheels or be just hand brake, break away cables etc
really trying to make into a trailer. hence easier to stick on real trailer.

must of these motor homes tugging are illegal unless tiny cars.

[Terranosaurus]

Even motorholmes towing micro cars are illegal, if a trailer is fitted with brakes they must all be operational regards less of weight, so the A frames that link into the hand brake mechanism don't comply either as tey don't operate on both axles.

I've heard of 2 ways of doing it "more" legally. One is an electro mechanical device that presses the brake pedal for you, these are common (and legal) in the US apparently but it is not plain whether this complies with the mechanical linkage rules for UK construction and use.

The other method goes attaches to the brake fluid resevoir and pressurises the brake system directly from the coupling head. It all needs bleeding up properly to work but I am told these are truely legal. It would also be possible to use "dry break connectors" (comon in high end motorsport) these would allow you to couple te braking system into the A frame coupling in a similar way to how HGV air brakes are connected into the tractor unit.

[floyd500b]

a frame? on what?

afaik thats illegal here unless the 'trailer' is <750 kg gross / no brakes.

reckon you were more than lucky as they say.

bit like dollies, only legit for towing broken down vehicles.

You could probably tow any LR legitimately then :smile:

[wildbri]

drove a split screen vw camper to bulgaria in the sixties, what a sad place it was in those days, nothing in the shops, people trying to buy your clothes from you, no public transport, secret police lurking everywhere, every thing and every one looking so sad. I am glad to hear that things have changed.

Regards towing with a A frame, there is a hughe thread on the motorhome forum www.motorhomefacts.com the consensus seems to be that it is legal
in the uk but not in europe...... and this is why. In the uk a thing is legal unless it is declared illegal in germany a thing is only legal when it has been declared legal i.e illegal if not declared legal..... rest of europe illegal to tow
a vehicle unless garage or motoring recovery agents... these are not my opinions. regards..bri

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

nice link bri, trust your not a m/h junkie then, cos like hb says 750 kg, all wheel brakes, break aways etc seem pretty clear cut.

then theres lighting, warning triangles tugs number plate etc.

seen a few of these rigs on cc sites, trouble they go to mights as well get
a little trailer to put it on and have done. personally if going thousands
of miles on tour wouldnt want all that mileage adding to my run around,
so do folks disconnect the speedo. be interesting when sold, wear n tear
vs. odometer.

[Terranosaurus]

drove a split screen vw camper to bulgaria in the sixties, what a sad place it was in those days, nothing in the shops, people trying to buy your clothes from you, no public transport, secret police lurking everywhere, every thing and every one looking so sad. I am glad to hear that things have changed.

Regards towing with a A frame, there is a hughe thread on the motorhome forum www.motorhomefacts.com the consensus seems to be that it is legal
in the uk but not in europe...... and this is why. In the uk a thing is legal unless it is declared illegal in germany a thing is only legal when it has been declared legal i.e illegal if not declared legal..... rest of europe illegal to tow
a vehicle unless garage or motoring recovery agents... these are not my opinions. regards..bri

It has also been discussed again and again on most 4x4 forums with respect to towing SJs etc to quarries. Its funny but the people who like to use them can never be disuaded that they aren't legal - ala motorhome owners I suspect.

That nonsense about only illegal if declared, in the UK, is just that nonsense. If it doesn't meet construction and use regulations it doesn't meet construction and use regulations and is thus illegal. The big difference is in Germany anything you use on the road must have TUV approval, if it doesn't it is illegal regardless, in the UK it must meet the requirements of C&U but doesn't have to be approved.

For the final word on the subject I'll leave you with the official clarification from the DOT

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/107 as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel:
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.


Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport

[wildbri]

I think that most of the owners know its not legal but dont want to admit it.

Personally I think that small motor homes are great, but large gin palaces
towing cars seems completely out of place on campsites. The cost of these is huge. but lots of the talk on the site is about where they can camp for free or very little. I think that if you are going to tow it might as well be a very nice caravan and save yourself a lot of money. I have a small caravan which I drag all over europe, find a nice site by lake or river and then go off adventuring in the terrano finding places you would'nt want to take a motorhome ...... bri :lol:

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

spot on, by time you hve m/h big enough to be comfy like a van is it will be to big to dive into town for shopping. walk/ride/public transport second class again.

seen to many camper vans bog down, then borrow a van's 4x4 to pull out.

then as you say increased cost to purchase, ironic try to camp free may to make up, hmm parking in lorry and bus parks no security or facilities each to own. 2 lots of tax insurance etc..

if funds no prob maybe like a yank bus, with a 4x4 on a trailer for runabout, till then stick with 4x4 and 'van.

[Terranosaurus]

I think that most of the owners know its not legal but dont want to admit it.

Same with the 4x4 owners.

The reality is most of them are quite safe and not a problem, as with any trailer/tow car combination its down to suitable wieghts and the towing ability of both the vehicle and driver.

The UK police seem to turn a blind eye most of the time but you can bet your bottom dollar that they wouldn't in the event of an acident and neither would the insurance company. Occasionally VOSA (whos job it is to enforce tis sort of stuff) have a clamp down and pull every trailer they see and check te for weight, brakes etc, thats the time they'll catch people. I've known rally teams on the way to and from events to be stopped and have to redistribute their load across different vehicles or even bring in a different tow vehicle before being allowed to continue on their journey - and thats the lucky ones who ae only a little illegal and get a warning some get fines and points.

[barny]

Ok,Thanks for all the input,looks like i broke the law a little :wink: and i should have found out first,but........the new A-frame i bought of e-bay (2.5 tonne)capaple, did the job.I did 2000 miles travelling 55 to 70mph along motorways and some really rough,potholed,bumpy roads the Terrano didn't even feel the suzi on the back and braked well.As for taking cars/vehicles across Europe,alot of people had cars ONTOP of old transit pick-ups,the law didn't seem to mind that!,also some of them were then towing a TWO CAR TRAILER 8O :? Overloaded/weighted mmmm
Also saw quite a few car trailers at the side of the road with punctures,load moved and even a lorry transporter with 8/9 cars that had all moved and caused serious damage to each other,luckily no one else!
While driving accross Europe we seen one extreme to the other in road vehicles/roads/laws...... :roll:

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

no probs barny, didnt want to come across as pointing finger, more looking out for you mate 8)

you did see some combos.

i'll have to scan it or type up but article in recent CC mag about police /vosa doing spot check on outfits at a services on m5 this summer.
overloaded, stolen. no towing mirrors, rear plates, lights they got them all!

folk who clearly hadnt checked their outfits before setting off.