help needed

[solarman216]

OK you guys and girls are any of you butchers that operate a Biro 3334 meat saw, I have a big problem with one of my customers saw, it keeps kicking blades off and cannot fathom why? Rick

[solarman216]

to illustrate the importance that this deserves, £100 goes to the man that can solve it, Rick

[AlexD333]

to illustrate the importance that this deserves, £100 goes to the man that can solve it, Rick

The answer "if you cant fix it, it's broken" :lol

[solarman216]

The answer "if you cant fix it, it's broken" :lol

very rare am I defeated, but this one is a real pain both pulleys are in line, belt tension is correct but still sheads blades, Rick

[AlexD333]

Can't see a forum for it, or any problems on Google with same symptom

I did find this though, has a few measurements that may help :nenau

http://www.birosaw.com/products/wp-content/files_mf/3334ssseries92.pdf

[Lazy-Ferret]

Not sure if you have the manual...

http://www.waltonsinc.com/PDF/Model%203334%20Saw%20Manual.pdf

On the Band saws I have used in the past (not Meat), assuming it was all working fine, and then started playing up after a blade change, blade run off was normally caused by a bad welding in the band saw blade loop, where it was not properly aligned, and when you looked closely, the back edge had a small step at the join.

Now knowing you, you have already tried a new blade, but is it from the same manufacturer, e.g, is there a manufacturing fault?

[Lazy-Ferret]

Just found this...
http://meatcuttersclub.activeboard.com/mobile.spark?p=topic&topic=44059424

Read down to the bottom, not sure where they mean to put the metal though.

[zippy656]

Ah, its a band saw.

First check rubbers on wheels. Dammage can cause it to jump off. Smooth flat or convex

Second, check top wheel moves freely, not round and round but tips back, as needs to keep blade runnin in center of rubber on.wheel, (only if rubbers are convex)

Third. If rubbers flat, top wheel should be tiped back a little, pullin blade back.

Fourth. Chech top and bottom.wheel guides are free running, not worn with chips dents or chunks missing.

Last, the guides that the blade is pushed onto when cutting is set correctly. Both set same one above table, the other below, if to far back. After cutting the blade will sprin forwards, jumpin off wheel.

Info from woodworking machines, 20+years. Not meat. But think info still sound as machines are the same.

[bud]

Same principle as a band saw in a Saw mill...and resaws..(which is what I do)

THe saw will need tracking to run true....

it could have a crook /worn bearing which will create more pressure on one side of the band then the other causing it to move forward of the wheels.

[rustic]

Having read the posts and the links, I find it amazing that the blade stays on at all.
A bit like how a train stays on the track at over 100 mph, with a very small lip on the edge of the wheel.

It's all about curvature of the pulleys on the saw, which should be convex so if they are aligned correctly, will self centre, and for the train, about taper on the wheels.

Cutting edge technology.:augie

[rustic]

Maybe time for some lateral thinking.
Maybe the blade is coming off as a consequence of something else rather than the pulleys.

If the blade jams in the meat a little, then as the drive pulley rotates it will squeeze the blade off as it slips.
So what is the blade tension like, it needs to be quite high, and consistant.

What you don't know, is which pulley the blade is coming off first, but more likely the drive one:nenau.

[solarman216]

Thanks for suggestions so far, already have the literature suggested but neither gives any set up info for blade alignment other than tension, which is set with a feeler in the spring, when the feeler becomes tight the spring is compressed correctly, both pulleys are in line and no play in the bearings, the motor is powerful and on startup you can see the blade pull forward a little on the bottom drive pulley, this is as the blade leaves the pulley, this to me is saying that the blade is going slack or there is some other distortion going on, but this machine is very heavy and very solidly constructed so hard to see where any flexing can take place, have Emailed the manufacturers for info, I have found some forums re this issue and some say these machines are renowned for this fault but no info as to the cure, Rick

[Banshee]

The answer "if you cant fix it, it's broken" :lol

Exactly what I was going to write

I had to read the thread title and user 3 times and then still had to open it to check I'd read it correctly :lol

[rustic]

to illustrate the importance that this deserves, £100 goes to the man that can solve it, Rick

I speak for myself and maybe a few others, No need Rick, ok it's part of your work and income, but then you give part (a lot) of your work time and income to help members on this forum too.

About time we can help you for a change.:thumb2:thumb2

I hope you can get it sorted.

If I work on something that is broken, I see it as a challenge to be able to fix it, sometimes with more time and effort than it's worth...:doh
I think most of the members on this forum are like that too.:thumb2

Good luck,
Rustic

[AlexD333]

Exactly what I was going to write

I had to read the thread title and user 3 times and then still had to open it to check I'd read it correctly :lol

With a look of confusion on your face I bet :lol

[Banshee]

With a look of confusion on your face I bet :lol
Oh yes!!!!!

[dave123]

I am a butcher and have actually used this saw a lot to break down lambs . ie in a factory so 2000 plus a day . but its been 5 years since I have worked there . but if I remember there should be adjustment dial for one of the pulley wheels to stop it from working off when turning . if you was closer I would gladly come and help

[solarman216]

thanks Dave, there are two possible adjustments on the two pulleys, one is the backward tilt of the top pulley and the other is shimming of the carrier arm for the whole top assembly, this is on the slider that goes up and down to tension the blade, I use a straight edge to align both pulleys, Rick

[solarman216]

Same principle as a band saw in a Saw mill...and resaws..(which is what I do)

THe saw will need tracking to run true....

it could have a crook /worn bearing which will create more pressure on one side of the band then the other causing it to move forward of the wheels.

Thanks bud, how do you "track" a saw, see prev post as to the only adjustments available, Rick

[solarman216]

so far the manufacturers have not responded, my customer is currently looking to bid on a Hobart saw as he is getting Peed of cutting up two sides of beef a day by hand, this is getting really important now, thanks for your comments Rustic but it is now £200 to the person that can sort this, that is how important this customer is to me, Rick

[dave123]

thanks Dave, there are two possible adjustments on the two pulleys, one is the backward tilt of the top pulley and the other is shimming of the carrier arm for the whole top assembly, this is on the slider that goes up and down to tension the blade, I use a straight edge to align both pulleys, Rick

try tilting it forward a little so the blade sits back more an the bottom of the pulley they are not suppose to be in dead alignment . because if I remember they will always work forward

[solarman216]

for bud, just had a thought, if I tilt the whole top assembly back a little so that the blade is able to stay against the bottom pulley flange and tilt the top pulley back a little as well does this make sense, by a little I mean a mm or so pulley to pulley, Rick

[kitchenman]

Long shot here ,have you tried another blade [band]?

Does it always jump off the same way?

Flip the blade inside out, if it slips off the other way then the blade [band] is at fault.

It has already been suggested the weld may be wonky, lay the blade [band] on a totally flat surface, there should be 100% contact, either way up particularly at the weld

Are the guides correctly aligned? Slack them off see if you get the same problem

[dave123]

rick it is defiantly the tlit pulley adjustment needed . the tension should be tight like 3mm movement in the blade . but to keep the blade on it is the tilt one . I can remember if we wanted a break we would just hit the back of the blade with our knifes to knock the blade off . :naughty

[dave123]

do the adjustments while you turn the pulley by hand and you should see the blade work back on then . the teeth of the blade should just be off the pulleys edge . plus it should be on a solid level floor and when you move it it may need readjustment

[AlexD333]

Ok, kim has found an answer for your problem - blade slipping off.

try putting a piece of very flat metal under the housing of the top wheel, It will lift up and tilt the wheel just enough to keep it from coming off.

[solarman216]

kitchenman and dave, yes done all that, new blade just the same, seems to me the pulleys need to be out of alignment slightly ie bottom slightly / and top slightly \ and I mean slightly, will try this tomorrow, Rick

[dave123]

kitchenman and dave, yes done all that, new blade just the same, seems to me the pulleys need to be out of alignment slightly ie bottom slightly / and top slightly \ and I mean slightly, will try this tomorrow, Rick

rick .that's what I'm saying they need to be slightly out of alignment and the tilt adjustment should do this . you just need to keep adjusting till it settle

[Lazy-Ferret]

Ok, kim has found an answer for your problem - blade slipping off.

try putting a piece of very flat metal under the housing of the top wheel, It will lift up and tilt the wheel just enough to keep it from coming off.

Paaahhhh... see post 7.....

[solarman216]

Ok, kim has found an answer for your problem - blade slipping off.

try putting a piece of very flat metal under the housing of the top wheel, It will lift up and tilt the wheel just enough to keep it from coming off.

this machine Alex has an adjuster bolt to do just that, no joy, Rick

[solarman216]

rick .that's what I'm saying they need to be slightly out of alignment and the tilt adjustment should do this . you just need to keep adjusting till it settle

thanks mate, yes have been adjusting the top pulley on its pivot but have just realised the top downward blade carbide block is still forward, but if I tilt the whole top structur back a little then this will go back as well, will give it a go tomorrow, Rick

[solarman216]

tried many times today, problem seems to be it is random, the best result I had was 5 or 6 faultless starts then belt shed half a second after power on??????????????????????? Rick

[rustic]

tried many times today, problem seems to be it is random, the best result I had was 5 or 6 faultless starts then belt shed half a second after power on??????????????????????? Rick

If you videoed it, then went slow, could you know which part it came off first.
If you knew that... how would that help?

Just a thought.:nenau

[solarman216]

video might be worth a try, but first I need to replace the V belt tween motor and bottom pulley, as it has a split in it, just wondering if the split is in a particular place on startup that it causes a problem? clutching at straws I know but there has to be some reason that it will start perfectly sometimes and others throw the blade instantly, bothe with old and new blade, have yet to put a dial gauge on the pulleys but they both look perfect when turning, Rick

[rustic]

Ahh slit v belt... might not give smooth constant speed to the drive pulley, the momentum of the blade and the un driven blade pulley might snatch the pulley from under the blade at certain parts of the revs, a bit like pulling a table cloth from under glasses and plates on a table.
Alex... do not try this at home.. lol :lol

OK not as dramatic as this, but the fact it is almost working most of the time, then this needs to be considered.

Also, the motor won't be a soft start, ie runs up from slow, this might also cause a snatch.

So... I wonder, if the capacitor on the motor is on it's way out.
If paper electrolytic, only have a limited life anyway, as they dry out.

I said you might need some lateral thinking and to look at other things.:nenau

Rustic

[solarman216]

Well some success, new drive belt fitted and started the machine up 20 odd times, most times the blade remained steady on the bottom pulley a couple or so times it drifted forward but only a little, we will have to wait till tomorrow to see if when he cuts meat and bone it remains good, but fingers crossed, Rustic I would have tried a new but slightly smaller start capacitor already to lower the startup torque, but it is encased in a metal cover and the screws are solid and do not want to shear them just yet, if desperate measures are needed later then I will, Rick

[Mobieus_uk]

its it level? as I'm guessing the pulleys are that flat type and as a result not being perfectly level may allow the blade to wander off

[solarman216]

Mmmmmm food for thought, it has had the original legs removed (due to new kitchen has welded vinyl covering) and it is now sat on a very heavy S/S base on 6 heavy casters, now this brings me to a point, today on fitting the new drive belt the machine was sited 3 foot left of its normal place, not sure why, could be a link?? will check this out Monday, Rick

[solarman216]

seems the drive belt was not the cure it promised to be first cut of meat and it was off again, Mobieus is this your field? Rick

[Mobieus_uk]

not my field, but in my industry we have smooth pulleys that are designed to throw the belt in the event of a problem and they have to be level
if it was on fixed legs (no castors) it was for a reason i.e stop people moving it

[solarman216]

not my field, but in my industry we have smooth pulleys that are designed to throw the belt in the event of a problem and they have to be level
if it was on fixed legs (no castors) it was for a reason i.e stop people moving it

OK follow your thoughts, but this machine is so solid and rigid, I really cannot see that it can distort enough, but might be proven wrong, anyway had enough of it, won a Hobart on Ebay tonight, so will see what this brings, Rick

[briggie]

this might not help rick mate , but about 40 years ago I worked in a slaughter house ...... we had a few big band saws for splitting carcases ...... my memory isn't too good these days , but .....as far as I remember it had to be level , and the blade didn't just go around pulleys , it went through a couple of guide type things ......... not much use I know mate , but it might help .

[solarman216]

yes Pete I have learnt a lot about meat saws of late, they have blade cleaners and pulley cleaners as well as carbide wear blocks, all have been replaced and some were not even present in the beginning, but all to no avail, all the forums I have visited say the same, bin it and get a Hobart, well that is what I have done, Rick

[AlexD333]

yes Pete I have learnt a lot about meat saws of late, they have blade cleaners and pulley cleaners as well as carbide wear blocks, all have been replaced and some were not even present in the beginning, but all to no avail, all the forums I have visited say the same, bin it and get a Hobart, well that is what I have done, Rick

And the old unit? :nenau

If you can fix this unit you could be in the money :thumb2

[briggie]

http://www.birouk.com/biro-model-3334ss-4003.html

is this any use rick ? ....... it says its a 2 blade saw

[solarman216]

Sorry Pete that is company sales stuff from a company that is no longer in existence, Rick

[solarman216]

And the old unit? :nenau

If you can fix this unit you could be in the money :thumb2

Na this is just shi? and I will not waste any more of my time on it, it will go in the scrap pile of which is mounting up, Rick

[AlexD333]

Na this is just shi? and I will not waste any more of my time on it, it will go in the scrap pile of which is mounting up, Rick

Well, atleast you can weight that in I guess :o