Insurance Question

[Phantom]

Hi Guys (and Gals),

A quick question (I hope). I've recently changed to the 4x4 from a vectra estate. My insurance is with Liverpool Victoria. I've checked the car insurance policy document and there are no exclusions/exceptions around off-road driving. There is a general condition about protecting the car from damage but one would hope to do this on or off road. From members experience is this normal motor insurance cover sufficient for off-road use (green laning and use at a local off-road centre)? I dont want to ask the insurance company unless necessary

Views very welcome

Phantom

[Terranosaurus]

Green lanes are public roads so you are covered on them regardless - some people on the end of the telephone will tell you otherwise but thats just ignorance - at the end of the day they are just telesales people on the whle not real insurance experts. Some of the specialist 4x4 insurers will try to promote green lane cover as an extra - its not its standard.

Pay and play sites are a totally different ball game - you are definitely off the road on private land. I doubt many would honour your fully comp insurance though they might honour the third party liability side. The reality is that third party accidents at these sites are rare and damage to your own vehicle is down to you to mitigate by driving within your and the vehicles limits and getting out to "walk the course" if you are unsure. Unless you stick it on its roof etc - any damage wouldn't be worth claiming for as would probably be under your excess anyway.

[jims-terrano]

Last time I looked Direct Line actual say that they wont cover you "Off Road" or "Track Days", technically Green Lanes are highways. As we all know Insurance companies will not pay if they can find a way out of paying.
There are specialist insurers that have been mentioned on here that will cover you for def.

Jim T

[extreme-4x4]

insurance ? whats that all about then ? lol 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

[Phantom]

Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

I've got 3 months to run on my current insurance, so may well consider a move after that. The only thing that I'll have to think about is that I've an insured 4 years no claims insurance with my current insurer, but the previous car had some break ins last year causing damage to the door which I claimed for -but retained my 4 years discount under the insurance. I'm not sure if this no claims discount would therefore be transferred/honoured if I changed insurers. Worth my checking out though. Thanks

[andrewk]

Some of the specialist 4x4 insurers will try to promote green lane cover as an extra - its not its standard.


This is exactly what I thought too. I'm presently insured by Liverpool Victoria and, by my interpretation, there are no exclusions in their conditions that preclude using my Patrol for greenlaning.

It is that time of year again, though, so I retrieved last years quote from confused.com and changed the cover required to exclude NCD protection, coz I've now decided that it's a rip off. This year, it tells me that Iggy Pop (swiftcover) is the cheapest by far. Before accepting the quote, I had a quick squint at their terms and conditions and spotted an ambiguous bit in their "What we cannot cover" page. So I penned an email asking for clarification as follows .......

Hi,

I've just had a motor insurance quote from you and was in the process of accepting it. I have just read your "What we cannot cover" page and, in particular, the section ""Vehicles we can't cover".

My vehicle is a Nissan Patrol, i.e. a 4x4. From time to time, I may drive it on Unclassified Roads or Public Rights of Way that are classified as "Byway Open to All Traffic" (possibly a few hundred miles per year in total). In both of these cases, the road/track may or may not have tarmac surfacing. As you will be aware, these are public roads and my vehicle needs to be completely "road legal" to drive on them - including MOT, VED and motor insurance.

Can you confirm whether the Swiftcover insurance will cover my vehicle when driving on public roads that do not have a tarmac surfacing?

Regards
Andrew Kay


I got a reply quite quickly from them .........

Dear Mr Kay,

Thank you for your e-mail.

Unfortunately this would not be covered by Swiftcover. As per our underwriting at this time this is something which we do not offer. I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause. :eek::eek:


Well, Iggy Pop, you ain't getting my money. :(

I think I'll probably renew with LV again - unless any of you guys know a better value insurer (Adrian Flux & Sureterm are dearer and NFU Mututal don't like my postcode).


FWIW (and because I know someone will suggest it anyway if I don't tell you I've already done it), I penned this follow-up but I don't really expect to get a reply.

Hi,

Thanks for your Email. I'm absolutely staggered. Can I suggest that you
re-check with your underwriter, as they may have misunderstood the question?
I am asking about driving on public roads that are not tarred - not about
driving offroad.

Can you please clarify what you mean by your answer? Do you mean that if I
insured with you and drive on a public road (or come to that on an unadopted
road) that is not tarred then:

a) The cover would be reduced from comprehensive to 3rd party whilst driving
on an untarred road OR
b) The cover would be completely invalidated whilst driving on an untarred
public road OR
c) That you are unable to offer cover for a 4x4 vehicle that might be used
occasionally on untarred roads.

If it is either b) or c) or both then I cannot understand why you offer
motor insurance for 4x4 vehicles at all, as they will all fall foul of your
"Vehicles we can't cover" clause. As the validity of your insurance cover
seems to be dependent on the surface covering of public roads, can you
please explain which types of public road ARE covered by the insurance you
offer?

Regards
Andrew Kay


Cheers
Andrew

[willow]

This is exactly what I thought too. I'm presently insured by Liverpool Victoria and, by my interpretation, there are no exclusions in their conditions that preclude using my Patrol for greenlaning.

It is that time of year again, though, so I retrieved last years quote from confused.com and changed the cover required to exclude NCD protection, coz I've now decided that it's a rip off. This year, it tells me that Iggy Pop (swiftcover) is the cheapest by far. Before accepting the quote, I had a quick squint at their terms and conditions and spotted an ambiguous bit in their "What we cannot cover" page. So I penned an email asking for clarification as follows .......

Hi,

I've just had a motor insurance quote from you and was in the process of accepting it. I have just read your "What we cannot cover" page and, in particular, the section ""Vehicles we can't cover".

My vehicle is a Nissan Patrol, i.e. a 4x4. From time to time, I may drive it on Unclassified Roads or Public Rights of Way that are classified as "Byway Open to All Traffic" (possibly a few hundred miles per year in total). In both of these cases, the road/track may or may not have tarmac surfacing. As you will be aware, these are public roads and my vehicle needs to be completely "road legal" to drive on them - including MOT, VED and motor insurance.

Can you confirm whether the Swiftcover insurance will cover my vehicle when driving on public roads that do not have a tarmac surfacing?

Regards
Andrew Kay


I got a reply quite quickly from them .........

Dear Mr Kay,

Thank you for your e-mail.

Unfortunately this would not be covered by Swiftcover. As per our underwriting at this time this is something which we do not offer. I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause. :eek::eek:


Well, Iggy Pop, you ain't getting my money. :(

I think I'll probably renew with LV again - unless any of you guys know a better value insurer (Adrian Flux & Sureterm are dearer and NFU Mututal don't like my postcode).


FWIW (and because I know someone will suggest it anyway if I don't tell you I've already done it), I penned this follow-up but I don't really expect to get a reply.

Hi,

Thanks for your Email. I'm absolutely staggered. Can I suggest that you
re-check with your underwriter, as they may have misunderstood the question?
I am asking about driving on public roads that are not tarred - not about
driving offroad.

Can you please clarify what you mean by your answer? Do you mean that if I
insured with you and drive on a public road (or come to that on an unadopted
road) that is not tarred then:

a) The cover would be reduced from comprehensive to 3rd party whilst driving
on an untarred road OR
b) The cover would be completely invalidated whilst driving on an untarred
public road OR
c) That you are unable to offer cover for a 4x4 vehicle that might be used
occasionally on untarred roads.

If it is either b) or c) or both then I cannot understand why you offer
motor insurance for 4x4 vehicles at all, as they will all fall foul of your
"Vehicles we can't cover" clause. As the validity of your insurance cover
seems to be dependent on the surface covering of public roads, can you
please explain which types of public road ARE covered by the insurance you
offer?

Regards
Andrew Kay


Cheers
Andrew

well done you:thumbs
Look forward to the reply if you get one:)

[bensonsnuts]

I've been with L/V for several years and have never been able to find a better quote come renewal time .
They seem pretty relaxed about 4x4's and modifications . I've never had to claim which is the acid test !
I wouldn't expect to be covered on a private pay and play site and on a green lane I wouldn't expect to damage the car enough to be worth claiming .:augie
I have my insurance to fulfill my legal obligation and protect me from the tarmac terriers not to cover my backside if I do something stupid off-road .
I'll think you'll find most offroaders do the same :augie

[Bibio]

I was with 2gether insurace last year, they give discounts if you are in a club ,(nissan4x4, pajero owners etc,

http://2gfs.co.uk/

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[dinky]

Phantom I am with LV ,they know i go greenlaning and am a member of a Responce group no extra charge.,make sure you tell them greenaniing not quarry bashing.

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

AK, since you can drive ucrs, byways and orpa in a 2wd surely all vehicles would become
ones they do not insure. I certainly got a mk2 escort over houndkirk in my youth and
a 2wd vw camper upto stanage pole from sheffield before turning back!

[andrewk]

I have my insurance to fulfill my legal obligation and protect me from the tarmac terriers not to cover my backside if I do something stupid off-road .


Yep, I agree with that - but I'd just read Iggy Pop's ambiguous exclusion, so had to ask.

Cheers
Andrew

[andrewk]

AK, since you can drive ucrs, byways and orpa in a 2wd surely all vehicles would become
ones they do not insure. I certainly got a mk2 escort over houndkirk in my youth and a 2wd vw camper upto stanage pole from sheffield before turning back!

Yep, daft isn't it? My bet is that are just wrong and don't understand the underwriter's rules on this. Dunno whether I'll get another reply clarifying, but I'm not holding my breath.

Cheers
Andrew

[andrewk]

I got the renewal quote through in the post this morning from Liverpool Victoria. It's about £50 cheaper than last year and cheaper than the LV quote though confused.com. `

For a 2005 LWB Nissan Patrol 3.0Di SVE, the premium for comprehensive insurance INCLUDING NCD protection and legal cover is £343.08. I reckon that's not bad - so I rang up and renewed it before they could change their minds.

Well, Iggy Pop, I like your TV advert - but you've lost out to LV, sorry.

Cheers
Andrew

[bensonsnuts]

I got the renewal quote through in the post this morning from Liverpool Victoria. It's about £50 cheaper than last year and cheaper than the LV quote though confused.com. `

For a 2005 LWB Nissan Patrol 3.0Di SVE, the premium for comprehensive insurance INCLUDING NCD protection and legal cover is £343.08. I reckon that's not bad - so I rang up and renewed it before they could change their minds.

Well, Iggy Pop, I like your TV advert - but you've lost out to LV, sorry.

Cheers
Andrew

I know it depends on your age/address etc but my quote was £321 and when I phoned up to renew I asked them to recheck for best price .
With no alterations I got it for £288 .
It's always worth asking if they can do better . Not sure the ever give you their best price straight off !

[andrewk]

I know it depends on your age/address etc

Well, as I can now apply for a bus pass, I've got the age bit on my side. I don't think the postcode helps. NFU Mutual dislike my postcode so much that they won't quote me at all. I live about 3 miles NE of Oldham and maybe 10 miles from Manchester city centre, but still within the Greater Manchester boundary.

Ah, well ......... road tax (VED) is due by the end of the month too. Ho hum ....

Cheers
Andrew

[poppypiesdad]

If you do have a bad day why not do what the boy races do and get it picked up by a recovery company taken home and then stuff it into a ditch just like they do to cover off's on track days , seen a few from crail do it and blame it on a deer running in front or them or the mystery dog

popps

( not that i would condone that )

[andrewk]

I did get a reply from Swiftcover.

"Dear Mr Kay,

Thank you for your e-mail.

Please can you provide us with the exact location of the whereabouts you will be driving the vehicle? This will allow our Underwriting Department to look into this in more detail.

I hope this helps with your query.

Kind Regards
Hayley
Swift Help Team
Swiftcover.com"


So I had a ponder, because I thought I'd already answered that, so ...... I replied as follows.

"Hi,

Thank you for your Email.

> Please can you provide us with the exact location of the whereabouts you
> will be driving the vehicle?
> This will allow our Underwriting Department to look into this in more
> detail.
> I hope this helps with your query.

The types of road that I am concerned about include the following .......

1) Unclassified Roads that are recorded on a Highway Authorities "List of
Streets" that are maintained at public expense. These include Unclassified
Roads. Most of these, especially in rural areas, can legally be driven by
motor vehicles. They are public roads in exactly the same sense as the A5
is a public road. The only difference is that some of them are not tarred
and in many cases not as well maintaned as other roads. An example of this
includes Harrop Edge Lane, near Oldham that runs from OS map reference SD
99406 07483 to SE 00301 09178

2) Each Authority is also required to maintain a Definitive Map of public
rights of way. These are of several types. The type I am interested in are
those which have public rights of passage for motor vehicles (i.e. you can
legally drive on them). Most of these are classified as "Byway Open to All
Traffic" (aka BOATs). These "BOATs" are also public roads and can legally
be driven by motor vehicles. An example of this might include the section
of Cam High Road near Hawes that runs from OS map reference SD 86304 85394
to SD 92546 89500

In both of these cases, a vehicle is required to be fully road legal - i.e.
the driver must be licensed and the vehicle must be roadworthy, have at
least 3rd party insurance, a current MOT (if over 3 years old) and a current
road tax disc. These are not private land, nor are they private roads, nor
are they offroad. They are public roads and in the case of the two
examples I give above, they are not tarred. Both of the examples are old
stone/gravel surfaced roads. They are sometimes referred to as
"greenlanes".

I must point out that I have, this morning, accepted a renewal quotation
from my present insurer Liverpool Victoria at a renewal premium of £343 inc
NCD protection and legal cover. I cannot, therefore, accept any offer from
Swiftcover this year.

I would point out, however, that this issue of driving 4x4 vehicles on
untarred public roads (sometimes known as "greenlaning") needs clarification
in your Terms and Conditions. I would be interested in the view of your
underwriting department about this issue and will communicate that view to
members of the Green Lane Association and also to the Nissan4x4Owners club
of which I am a member, as it may affect whether any of the 30,000
individual and affiliate members of these organisations will be able to
insure their motor vehicles with Swiftcover.

Best wishes
Andrew Kay"


The saga continues ..........

Cheers
Andrew

[bensonsnuts]

Interested in their response to this !:augie

[(RIP) PLANK]

i am interested too, as i am regularly 'off road' and on privste land but not for any sporting activity just as part of working life and socail life, for example i have afriedn whose drive runs just over a mile, unsurfaced over his land, so am i covered on his drive?

there are also a few unadopted unsurfaced roads i know right here in dudly burough and very buil up areas that only run a few hundred yards, so am i covered on these? peoples houses are on them and they park there?

for this matter what abotu when on a caravan site? or a car boot sale? etc. etc. etc.

it all seesm a bit odd to me, surely it is a case of , if you are not using your vehicle for any kind of 'event' and you ar not causing damage by reckless behaviour or negligence, then surely you are covered?

[andrewk]

it all seesm a bit odd to me, surely it is a case of , if you are not using your vehicle for any kind of 'event' and you ar not causing damage by reckless behaviour or negligence, then surely you are covered?

I agree. I think they've just made a mistake. I reckon you should be covered for 3rd party risks in any public place - including offroad public places, such as Sainsbury's Carpark. ;)

Cheers
Andrew

[andrewk]

It looks like my reckoning was a bit suspect. I have received another email from Iggy Pop as follows:

Dear Mr Kay,

Thank you for your e-mail.

We apologise for the delay in our response, we are unfortunately receiving a higher volume of e-mails than usual and are currently attempting to clear this backlog.

As Swiftcover are a low risk insurer we would not cover greenlaning. I have passed your feedback to our Underwriting department who will look in to this matter and review our Terms and Conditions.


Kind Regards
Jennifer

Swift Help Team
Swiftcover.com


Swiftcover look like one to avoid - even though they are the cheapest I've seen so far. :nenau

Cheers
Andrew

[bensonsnuts]

I wonder how many of the other big insurers would actually honour their policy if you tried to make a claim for green laning damage ?

[tezzer]

none proberly, when you phone them and explain what happened, they are more likely ask what green laning is, i would imagine the insurers that advertise is land rover owner magazine would be the best to ask for a qoute.:nenau





tezzer

[Terranosaurus]

Just renewed with NFU - £456 but thats well over £100 less than sureterm etc. I suppose its the mods but its also the business use etc and that fully comp for Alison or I to drive so not bad really and unlimited mileage. Sureterm was SDP onoy and 5K miles so NFU better by far.

Andrew I know its too late for this year but have you tried a different NFU office? I@ve gone through the Skipton office cos a number of members of 4x4 response are insured there and they no what we're talking about, yet other NFU offices have tolf members they won't cover response work - worth a try next time you renew.

[andrewk]

Andrew I know its too late for this year but have you tried a different NFU office? I@ve gone through the Skipton office cos a number of members of 4x4 response are insured there and they no what we're talking about, yet other NFU offices have tolf members they won't cover response work - worth a try next time you renew.


I'll try that, thanks.

Cheers
Andrew

[BigBlack]

I'm insured with Sureterm4x4... cheapest by far for me! - even with three named drivers on the policy!

As far as I am aware covered for everything??? Ask you insurance how you would stand if you are in a field hitching up a cattle trailer or horse box? My motor daily goes 'of road' as far as down private farm tracks and into fields? :nenau

As for transfering NCD's, I had a claim in 2005 - allowed 1 more claim in 3yrs, but changed insurance companies each year without no probs. Did disclose the claim... only one company asked for proof of my full NCD though!