Towing with Pathfinder or Navara

[WilfHook]

Anyone towing with the Pathfinder or the new Navara (which I believe is the same)?

Will you please contact me.

Many Thanks

Wilf

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Hi,

sorry to see this query has had no replies yet, guess owners of these superb new trucks that tow as well are few and far between.

As someone very much interested in the pathfinder as well, perhaps you could offer your findings on the subject.

Additionally just picked up Practical Caravan August 06 issue, has a review of the Pathfinder (rated 4/5). The issue also has a big feature on the new UK spec Airstream trailers ( caravans to us ! ) , now that would make a fine outfit having both, I'll keep dreaming :lol:

[WilfHook]

rbt

I was trying to compare notes with other Pathfinder owners but I will explain. I was 100% happy with the stability of my caravan with the Terrano......I am only 85% happy with the same van on the Pathfinder.

Good points.
The Terrano (manual gearbox) I felt always needed an extra gear.....the Pathfinder has the six speed gearbox and is Perfect for towing and solo driving. Having 175 bhp it also blinds the Terrano.
The model I have also has all the toys.......sat nav....electric memory seats, proper climate control with three zones, cruise control that will take it almost anywhere in 6th gear...the list goes on so I am well happy with the car.

My concern is the caravan stability.......I have spoken to five or six owners who all feel the same. The Terrano was rock solid no matter how badly the caravan was packed. The Pathfinder has a softer suspension which takes speed bumps without slowing where as the Terrano did not really like them.....which I think is one difference. All tow bars (several different ones amongst the people I have spoken to) seem a little high which I think is the main factor in the instability problem. Drop plates are not type approved, though I know someone who fitted one and they said it cured the problem. All vans move a little after a bit of uneven road or pot hole but the Pathfinder takes much longer (one guy had a snake) before it settles down. I don't feel it in the car but it does look quiet alarming to someone following me.

I just want that reassuring feeling back that I had with the Terrano.

Sorry it's a long post ....but you did ask.

Alko stability hitch and shock absorbers (retro fit) fitted to caravan before anyone suggest the obvious and I have been towing for 20 years so I have a fair idea on nose weights etc.

Wilf

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

hi wilf,

thanks for info, appreciate as a pf is on the shopping list.

sounds like issues there with hitch height and softer suspension.

odd really since kerbweight of pf much greater than a t2, by atleast 400kg.

[(RIP) PLANK]

I dodn't realise drop plates were not type approved! I have found getting the ride level right is an important factor in caravan stability, couldn't you just try dropping it and see if helps? At least it will solve the mystery.

Seems daft that by effectively 'outlawing' drop plates the type approval system is no helping anyone to tow safely! :?

Good luck with it!

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Nor me Plank,

looking at drop plates in Towsure catologue, it only says that they must not be used to raise the ball height but lowering is fine. The items make no mention od ec94/20 that their towbars and couplings meet.

Surely if your bar has the standard two bolt fitting, to which a stabilizer plate, bumper protector or cycle carrier can be fixed in addition to the ball then a drop plate can be added. Indeed the Towsure branded stabilizer plate could be used as a drop plate as well since it features two pairs of mounting holes.

Since the regualtions for towbars also describe the preferred ball height from the ground, abount 16" max I guess/recall. If yours is much higher and this leads to towing decidely nose up instability is a well know result.

Think this happened with new Discovery's fixed height factory coupling and eventually led to a recall??

If anything the above directive does state somewhere how many or how thick the bolt accescories combined can be and I am again sure it allows for a stabilizer/drop plate and a bumper protector, but it may be that since these items are effectively spacer blocks or taking ball further away from car with the atttendent increases in levearage and the need for longer bolts a limit of safety has to be imposed.

as a sub note in the Towsure catologue it does say that the use of adjustable towing bracket, the type where the face plate can slide up and down a carrier plate secured by pins and r-clips/lynch pins, is not approved on class M vehicles registered after 1st August 1998 ('S' reg).

Which I have to add is pretty bizzare since they actually resolve such issues. And many new bars are of an almost identical securing method - those that are removable or use a receiver, US style.

[(RIP) PLANK]

what are class 'm' vehicles?

Anothe rpoint if the tow bar needs to be type aproved, and the tow ball needs to be type aproved (assuming a standard two bolt fitting) if there is no mention of the dropping plate in the approval, is it fair to automaticaly assume it is not approved? Could we drop a line to towsure or someone simmilar and print out their reply?

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

hi sory about the jargon ie 'm' class.

essentially standard european cars, 4x4, and people carriers built for EU markets.

EC94/20 does NOT apply to the following:
vans / similar commercial/goods vehicles
chassis cabs and tippers
pickups inc. popular 4 door double cabs ( Navara )
motorhomes or motor caravan conversions
motorcycles
purely off road vehicles ie not road use
some personally imported vehicles (greys - think any with no Euro equiv)
minibuses with over 9 seats inc. driver.

and of course all vehicles pre August 98.

the Directive is also known as type approval.

I have emailed Towsure tech for confirmation on drop plate ruling.


edited once @ 21:40 1/7/06

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

Towsure Products Ltd, have replied to my email for confirmation on drop plate use.

Its bad news, they are not approved for vehicles listed above 'S' reg and later.

Not sure where to go from here, but am registered on a caravan forum, so
will seek suggestions there.

to be continued..

quote

Thank you for your query.

The standard drop plates are not EC approved and are unsuitable for any S-registration onwards passenger vehicles such as the Maverick and Terrano. Vehicles classed as commercials (pickups/crewcabs/van variants) are exempt from EC94/20.

Regards,
Towsure Products Ltd

end quote

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

ok,

caravantalk.org.uk

menbers say as me correct ball height upto 16", seems also this m class has a derivative.

basically cars are to m1 but offroaders are to m1g which allows for ball height to be higher, in many cases 18" or so to improve departure angle.

so ball height id defined by ec94/20 as well!

seems options are limited, and down to the manufacturer to provide approved drop plate or in some cases, such as kia the bar has two positions for the ball to be bolted too.

so Wilf would check with supplier of towbar be it Nissan or other and seek alternatives.

Again other forum universally agreed best towing stability is achieved with a nose down stance and the nose weight as close to the maximum of the trailer, respecting the tug's limit of course.

a Discovery owner said his ball height was 18.5 inches, Witter supplied an approved 2 " drop plate though owner does not state if EC94/20 rules applied, and ride / tow quality improved tremendously.

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

well just found this comment in 'manual vs auto' thread.

Had a witter bar installed last week - the Nissan ones put the ball at 19" off the floor - the witter is a good 2 - 3" lower.

poster referring to new pf, worth checking me thinks.

found by going thru all posts found with pathfinder in search, as a caravanner worth taking a look at site, think got link from member here, jonathanm!

edited once 22:43 4/7/06

[(RIP) PLANK]

I agree with the trying a different towbar approach! many do have two height positions!

If the original nissan one does not meet the recomende tow height and is unadjustable surely this becomes a warranty issue?

If you can't get the ride height adjusted to suit how will this affect the variety of different trailers you could tow, plant trailers, caravans etc?

The one that springs to mind is a horse box that can be difficult to set up as the horses are top heavy and don't stand perfectly still! often using two stabalisers.

I think this is one to take up with nissan!! another example of EU regulations gone mad. :evil:

:idea: an after thought! you could board your windows up and pretend its a van :lol: doesn't that prove the stupidity of it all? a t2 comercial could use a drop plate but a car can't? a pathfinder no, a navara yes! is the drop plate any less likely (or more likely) to fail on a van? I think not :!:

[WilfHook]

It's midnight so I'll be quick...........My Brink towbar has 2 set of holes and I am already on the lower set.

Taken a few measurements tonight and it's maybe not as bad as I thought.......shame because I thoughgt I was on to a cure.

All measurements to centre of towball not the top.

Caravan sat level 465mm
Car level 460mm ....no load in boot.
Coupled together 445mm
Caravan loaded but weight not distributed yet........75kg noseweight.

7% rule of caravan noseweight should be 91kg so I can load the front of the van a little more which together with my boat and outboard in the boot should make the back end sink a little lower so I should have correct noseweight and a slight nose down attitude on the caravan.

The pathfinder does not need extra pounds in the rear tyres like the Terrano did when fully load. 35psi at all times.

Going to replace the friction pads in the Alko hitch then give it a try....2,000 miles worth of a try so it better be good as it is a long way to go if I don't feel it's 100% stable.

rbt

I was trying to compare notes with other Pathfinder owners but I will explain. I was 100% happy with the stability of my caravan with the Terrano......I am only 85% happy with the same van on the Pathfinder.

Good points.
The Terrano (manual gearbox) I felt always needed an extra gear.....the Pathfinder has the six speed gearbox and is Perfect for towing and solo driving. Having 175 bhp it also blinds the Terrano.
The model I have also has all the toys.......sat nav....electric memory seats, proper climate control with three zones, cruise control that will take it almost anywhere in 6th gear...the list goes on so I am well happy with the car.


these 5 or 6 owners you spoke with? did you get them to join?
My concern is the caravan stability.......I have spoken to five or six owners who all feel the same. The Terrano was rock solid no matter how badly the caravan was packed. The Pathfinder has a softer suspension which takes speed bumps without slowing where as the Terrano did not really like them.....which I think is one difference. All tow bars (several different ones amongst the people I have spoken to) seem a little high which I think is the main factor in the instability problem. Drop plates are not type approved, though I know someone who fitted one and they said it cured the problem. All vans move a little after a bit of uneven road or pot hole but the Pathfinder takes much longer (one guy had a snake) before it settles down. I don't feel it in the car but it does look quiet alarming to someone following me.

I just want that reassuring feeling back that I had with the Terrano.

Sorry it's a long post ....but you did ask.

Alko stability hitch and shock absorbers (retro fit) fitted to caravan before anyone suggest the obvious and I have been towing for 20 years so I have a fair idea on nose weights etc.

Wilf

[fingers]

Hi its Fingers

I have a x-trail and it has the same set up and when i tow it had bad stability so i rang Nissan they said turn the ESP OFF AND I DID ITS NOW BRILL, the is a bit in the caravan mag on esp thay say its no good when towing

[WilfHook]

I have heard of the need to turn the ESP off on some vehicles...I think it was Land Rover that had problems but I'm not sure in this case.

If the ESP were to activate the ESP warning light on the dash should come on and the cruise control should auto disconnect.

I have not seen the ESP light on other than at the bulb test when first turning the ignition on and the cruise control is certainly not disconnecting.

ESP is a safety function so should I really be turning it off?........I already tried it and I didn't notice any difference.

I have also had the friction pads out of the Alko hitch and they don't look bad. The wear indicator says anywhere between 50% going to fully worn though depending how much pressure you apply to the arm. 50% worn is no pressure at all where as fully worn is slight thumb pressure.
I'll take one down the dealers and compare them before I part with £25.


Wilf

[Thomas-the-Terrano2]

further info from Towsure Technical Sales.

pf bar is due shortly, just completing paper work and it will have
estimated ball height of 17.5 inches on LOWER set of mount holes.

They add that not introducing a suitable drop plate, though their
adustable Height Tow Coupling ( catologue ref AT1 ) will suit because
of the twin pairs of bolt holes of the towbar.

some progress, I believe?

first post on here but been towing with my PF since I got it in February.

I have a witter fixed bar with the alko ball on the lower 2 holes. So far I have towed my caravan 1500kg single ax sterling approx 2500 miles.

400 mile round trip to Lancashire
100 mile round trip local
1000 mile round trip to France
150 mile round trip local
250 mile round trip to Brighton
100 mile round trip local
100 mile round trip local

I have had no stability problems at all - in France went like a dream at 80mph on the autoroutes (including coming back with 50 bottles of wine and 15 crates of beer in the boot).

going again to France in 14 days time - will tow approx 2000 miles over 3 weeks.

I have increased the air in the rear tires to 40psi (from 36) and keep the noseweight on the van at 90 - 100kg's.

Normally have 2 of us plus 3 kids in the back.

Overall very pleased with car towing and solo - caravan sits slightly nose down on the lower ball setting.

It had 5000 miles (ex demo) when i got it and it's now just passed 19,000 miles (I currently drive around 800 - 1000 miles a week).

I towed with yesterday and it was really windy - van didn't move at all and I kept to 60mph without incident.

Ian

[WilfHook]

Just changed the friction pads in the Alko hitch....which did look warn when compared to a new set.

After further questioning my pal says my van looked to sway a little after lane changing or overtaking lorries but would settle down again. He was used to following me (thousands of miles) and could see it was not my usual stable outfit.

This I think would tie in with worn friction pads in the stabilizer....well I hope so.

[WilfHook]

FAO Ian Iancjc

What made you decide to up the rear tyre pressures when it states 35psi on the door frame?

What differences have you noticed and why 40 psi?

Thanks
Wilf

[(RIP) PLANK]

I must admit to never havng towed with either of the vehicles in question, but I have found excessive tyre pressures are usualy not good fot toeeing they make the rear of the vehice to bouncy, and with the recomemded nose weight of most caravans around 75 kilos the extra weight on the car is only about that of an average person!

But if you have tried it and it works for you then 'go for it' :wink:

Upped them because the full loaded psi at 35 picture doesn't take account of 100kgs hanging a foot of the rear of the vehicle. To be honest they just looked to be struggling with the weight of 3 kids a full boot and the caravan on the back - adding some additional air just seemed sensible.

Made no difference to the stability or "bouncyness". when solo I take the air back to 35. I've done this with my last few cars and I just feel happier with a little extra in the rears

[mav]

test for Ickydickydoo

http://www.nissan4x4ownersclub.co.uk/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5353

[ickydickydoo]

hi wilf,

i have a navara with a drop plate and it tows better now than it did.

regards

ickydickydoo