Any 'Sparks' out there - advice please

[CaptLimey]

I need advice of any electrical/security experienced members. It's not exactly a 4X4 specific issue but loosely related. I want to improve the security of a parking spot on my patch of land but unfortunately it's over 200 meters from any power supply. I'd like to have CCTV, visual/audio comms,(for friendly visitors) auto-sensor lighting and remote control of gates. My first question is what core size of cable will I need to ensure sufficient voltage over that distance to operate the gates? Secondly what type/make of products, individual or packages are there to make up such a system and at what rough costs. Any advice of specialists in the field or anyone who has installed such a system, will be much appreciated.
Rgds CL

[(RIP) PLANK]

I will watch this with interest mate as I am going to do the same thing myself after Christmas on some land i have recently taken over. I have come across some cameras that look very good, there are a few to chose from if you look on ebay or amazon at 'TENVIS'

[(RIP) PLANK]

I will watch this with interest mate as I am going to do the same thing myself after Christmas on some land i have recently taken over. I have come across some cameras that look very good, there are a few to chose from if you look on ebay or amazon at 'TENVIS'

I am planning a 12v system (with a solar panel) with manual gates and bolting down a safe to contain all the 12v stuff. But it would be easy to add a 12v solenoid/magnetic lock and let the visitors open the gates themselves.

[(RIP) PLANK]

why are my posts posting twice?

here's a cctv link http://www.tenvis.com/web/enindex.html

[CaptLimey]

I am planning a 12v system (with a solar panel) with manual gates and bolting down a safe to contain all the 12v stuff. But it would be easy to add a 12v solenoid/magnetic lock and let the visitors open the gates themselves.

Hi Plank
Thanks for spurring an alternative idea i.e. a remote solenoid locking system only. I don't really need communications all the time, I only need the system to be secure during hours of darkness when the remote parking area is most vulnerable. So I could forego the CCTV/comms option - for just closing and locking the gates when we turn in. But I'll still need to close and secure the system from over 200 meters away!
Maybe I'll just walk the dog down there each night and lock the damn thing manually!
Rgds CL

[96terrano]

I am planning a 12v system (with a solar panel) with manual gates and bolting down a safe to contain all the 12v stuff. But it would be easy to add a 12v solenoid/magnetic lock and let the visitors open the gates themselves.

When you've done, get some pics up lol sounds interesting:thumbs

[TONUP]

Do you know what the demand will be to operate the gates and the CCTV equipment.

I might be seeing our works electrician next week, so I will try to ask him. If you can wait.

I know that I have asked similar question of him before regarding CCTV, but not over 200 metres (that's a long way). I think I also suggested the 12v option as well, but I think he said that the physics still apply and the diameter of cable still has to be quite large.

Regards

Alan

[briggie]

voltage drop over 200 metres is gonna be quite considerable

[christof123]

Quick search found this,
http://www.highlights.co.uk/charts/voltcalc.htm

Its a bit basic but if you find out exactly what you want to run (Ampere wise) then it might come in very handy.

You could just park closer:augie

[solarman216]

200 mtrs 12volt forget it for anything more than a cctv camera,and even then you will be on the limits, your best bet is a 12 v battery and a small charger if you want to do gate locking reliably, so 1mm triple and earth @ mains voltage to a charger that is a little more than the total milliamp draw of your devices, and a 12 Amh sealed lead acid battery (as used in intruder alarms) a good quality coax for the camera video line and the yellow from the triple and earth to power a relay which will operate a relay to lock your gate, depends on the type of lock you go for but second press could also unlock the gate, but then you will need another pair of wires to operate a tell tale as other wise you would not know if the gate had been locked or unlocked, Rick

[(RIP) PLANK]

another 'low tech' idea. We hzve gates secured by squire 5 digit high security padlocks. They make it easy to include or exclude who gets in. Gaining entry can be as easy as a text message - and simply recode to exclude

[CaptLimey]

My thanks to everyone for the helpful replies, particularly Solarman's, thanks.
Rick - re the 12 a/hr sealed lead acid battery, would a larger one be any better or just a waste of money?
I'll do more research re volt/amp demands of the proposed system and re-post.
PLANK I like the the simple combination lock and text option BUT we get no mobile signal here in the French backwoods!
Rgds CL

[briggie]

ricks idea of batteries charged via solar panels is a very good idea ,

another option may be to run a mains wire , and use a step down transformer.

[(RIP) PLANK]

When I do this I intend to put the safe containing the battery and other stuff very close to the gate so ther is no voltage drop over distance.

[briggie]

interesting site here for calculating voltage drops , its american , but you get the idea

http://www.securityideas.com/howtocalvold.html

[briggie]

perhaps a better site below ....

http://cse-distributors.co.uk/cable/voltage-drop.htm

[rustic]

but then you will need another pair of wires to operate a tell tale as other wise you would not know if the gate had been locked or unlocked, Rick

Adding to Rick's thread, regarding the tell tail, you could set up the CCT so that it can see a small control panel / lamps to show the status of the locking of the gates. Open, Closed, Fault etc

If you want the lamps to be invisible to visitors, use infra red LED's these will show as white lamps on CCTV.

Test it using a digital camera, phone or cct with your Infra red remote control for your TV.
It is also a good tip to test remote controls too. :thumb2 :thumb2

Best regards,
Rustic.

[CaptLimey]

Hi guys and thanks for the helpful posts.

One example of a possibly suitable sliding gate system on ebay is item 190392595090 (sorry cut & paste the link didn't work)

The spec says it has a 240v 500 watt motor that draws 2.0 amps at full load. The voltage drop table suggested by Christof123, says that 2.5mm cable over 200 meters will drop 6.4 volts. Will that affect the motor operation? (it has a capacitor of 16 uf).

PLANK re your remote 12v installation - how do you intend to control access and from what distance?

Briggie thanks for your suggestions re step down transformer but if I'm running mains voltage I might as well use it to power the opener/locking system, if there's not too great a voltage drop, wouldn't you agree? The idea of batteries charged by solar power is sound but I still need to control access from over 200 meters distant. Therefore I suspect wired control is the only option but I'd be please to hear if there's an alternative.

Rgds CL

[briggie]

sorry my mistake , i assumed you required 12v at the gates :doh

[kitchenman]

Slighly 'lateral' here but as you have no mobile signal get a pair of those cheap walkie talkie things, use one to send tones to the gate:confused: fitted with remote mic & speaker you could have secure intercom

[(RIP) PLANK]

ricks idea of batteries charged via solar panels is a very good idea ,

another option may be to run a mains wire , and use a step down transformer.

who's idea? :augie

mine I think :thumbs

[(RIP) PLANK]

When you've done, get some pics up lol sounds interesting:thumbs

I have most of the stuff ready and waiting but no time to do the work before Christmas, I'll keep you posted when it's done. :thumb2

The cameras we have chosen can stream to the interweb so they can be checked via a smart phone, we have 'visitors' on a daily basis, I fix a fence or a gate on one site or another virtually every day. :doh

[rustic]

The spec says it has a 240v 500 watt motor that draws 2.0 amps at full load. The voltage drop table suggested by Christof123, says that 2.5mm cable over 200 meters will drop 6.4 volts. Will that affect the motor operation? (it has a capacitor of 16 uf).Rgds CL


Be aware that the voltage is 230 volts in France and not 240 Volts + 10% - 15% as in the UK.

Normally most appliances that are CE marked are designed to cope with the lower end of the UK tolerance, BUT I am not sure what the lowest voltage tolerance is in France, this together with the estimated 6.4 volts could cause a few issues.

I assume this is the voltage drop over the return length, ie as seen at the end of 200 metres ie the load and not per conductor, ie each way...

4mm2 might be better, also the trench and back fill could cost quite a lot as well.

Solar panels may be the way to go.

[(RIP) PLANK]

zmine needs to cover a distance of 150 meters (ish) though I don't plan to have an electric gate as there is a locked barrier to prevent vehicles further down the lane so foot traffic only at that point.

could you use a 12v motor?

[rustic]

could you use a 12v motor?

Might be more options with 24 Volts, half the current for the same power compared to 12 Volts.

[(RIP) PLANK]

Might be more options with 24 Volts, half the current for the same power compared to 12 Volts.

good point, you could still use 12v batteries and solar pnels and still have a 12v supply for cameras. on reflection though would mains power be less exspense (I already have loads of bits knocking around for mine) initialy and less ongoing costs and maintenance?

[CaptLimey]

Hi to all and thanks for all the good ideas. I've now got lots of options to cogitate on.

Kitchenman I like your 'lateral thinking', I have a pair of walkie talkies but the battery life isn't worth diddly squat!

Re the 12/24 volt options - the commercial kit I have cited has a 24 volt option, however I favour a 240/230 volt system to avoid on-going maintenance of a remote solar charged 12/24 volt system. It could also easily include wired audio/video comms.

RUSTIC thanks for your good advice. Re the dig/backfill - no problems I have a digger. The main expense will be suitable heavy 4mm2 cable you suggest. How many cores would I need to provide power and TV/Audio comms? I think Rick (Solarman) suggested 4 - any advance?

Anyone know a good UK cable source?

Rgds CL

[rustic]

How many cores would I need to provide power and TV/Audio comms? I think Rick (Solarman) suggested 4 - any advance?

Rgds CL

The armoured power cable would be a seperate cable to the TV audio cable, you will need good quality screened cable for these.

Don't bundle the cables together, keep them well apart 6" will help....
At least keep the Power cable away from the signal cables, as the current in the power cable will emit interference as the load is inductive (motor), spikes, RFi interference etc.

Don't run low voltage supplies or signals in the armoured mains cable, there will be inductive coupling and capacitive coupling that will induce high voltage spikes in the low voltage cables, that can damage electronic devices.

Regarding the number of cores, what ever you need add a couple extra, for each cable.

If you use a conduit for the low voltage signal cables, leave a pull through cord in place as I guarantee that in 2-3 years time you will want to add some other device not thought about at the moment, hence the extra wires etc...


When I wired my pond, there are loads of power cables in conduits, for pumps, skimmers, UV light etc, and I also allowed 12 volts for LED lighting as well, several circuits.
Then there is also an air pump when the weather is too hot, and a heater to keep a small area free of ice in the winter. Oh and a water supply to keep the pond topped up.

So who knows what will develop over time, you might put a barn down there one day, flood lighting, etc

There is also the risk of lightning damage, you don't need a direct hit, it could be a ground strike a few hundred yards away, this can induce high voltages in the signal cables. This is a different topic, but you might need some isolation of the signals.
For example, don't connect these raw signals directly to your computer...:doh

[(RIP) PLANK]

what about a half and half?

mains power up to the gate for the motor and power for stuff, then wireless cctv and intercom? sort of mix and match the best bits of the two systems?

mains isn't an option for me as to get to the house it would have to cross a strip of land that I have no idea who owns, and has no means of access whatsoever, except through my land or the gardens of the neighbouring houses - though I don't think anyone else knows who owns it either either :naughty

[sogra]

H new to the site but may be able to help some years ago maybe about 8, I ran a CCTV company, things will have changed but not massivley.

You can get some cameras with very low current draw or even with an internal battery but would need to be wireless with a DVR (recorder) inside house. You can get covert cameras that have self record.

The question that should be asked is do you want to deter people or catch people?

If you want to catch people it needs to be able to be used as evidence (time & watermark because digital can be changed). The risk of self powered is that over time you get used to having CCTV and with self power the wrong time to find it is flat is when you have something happen.

The current draw for gates is high and will need to be mains powered you can buy kits on ebay but your gates need to be substancial.

If you wantd to power from the house you would take normal twin & earth through a sleave or use armour cable, armour cable is best, it needs to be buried deep enough not to be dug up I think its about a meter and strong enough for a spade not to go through it.


Entry system is easy with an elctromag lock and screen like you get in flats.

a 4 way camera system with 500g hard drive will give you about a month of recording time and cost anywhere from around £400 upwards.

You could get an IP adressable camera and view over the internet great if away from home or use a network DVR.

If exposed to outside the cabling needs to be IP65 (I think) which is water proof using gland nuts to seal.


Best guess at price if you do the first fix yourself and get a spark to do the final wiring including cameras, DVR, Cable, gate motor, entry system probably between 2 -3k.

Have a look on ebay some decent stuff on there (dont buy from HONG KONG)

Also Maplins do some decent DIY stuff.

Get day night cameras if you can as they change to lowlight in black and white also need to consider if you need infrared if there is litle ambient light about.

If you can do without the gate, camers run on less than 12v feed with a transformer you can fit in the house and just bury wires in a sleeve a foot or so down (no electrocution risk) Power runs through a cable with BNC connectors and power cable

Hope this helps

Geoff

[sogra]

Sorry hadnt read second page a lot of what I have told you is covered,

Geoff

[CaptLimey]

Again my thanks for the very useful input from Rustic, Plank & Sogra. What a great club this is, well worth my tenner! Thanks guys.
Rgds CL

[solarman216]

The armoured power cable would be a seperate cable to the TV audio cable, you will need good quality screened cable for these.

Don't bundle the cables together, keep them well apart 6" will help....
At least keep the Power cable away from the signal cables, as the current in the power cable will emit interference as the load is inductive (motor), spikes, RFi interference etc.

Don't run low voltage supplies or signals in the armoured mains cable, there will be inductive coupling and capacitive coupling that will induce high voltage spikes in the low voltage cables, that can damage electronic devices.



I developed a CCTC drain camera years ago that was on the end of 100 mrs of cable, screened lead for the video, plus power for the camera and 24v for a 10 w 12 volt halogen bulb which at that length received 10 to 11 volts due to losses, no interference problems ever, Rick

[(RIP) PLANK]

is there a drain that runs past the gateway? if so you could use one of Rick's cameras - job done :thumb2

[Mountain Goat]

Poor Sparky but good donkey. Let me know when we are doing it!

[(RIP) PLANK]

how is this project going?

[glanrichbex]

Why don't you run a cable - be it 200M from your house to where you need the camera. Connect the output of a transformer e.g 230volt primary to 30volt secondary to your cable.

At the far remote end of the cable rectify the A.C to DC with a bridge recrifier with an electrolytic capacitor at the output say 10,000uF - into a 7812 voltage regulator and there is your 12volts at 1amp / or 2 amp depending what rating 7812 you buy.

Very simple to put together :clap

[CaptLimey]

Many thanks to PLANK and glanrichbex for your interest and practical information.
The project is on hold at present, too many others on the list and this one is not at the top. However when it does come to the surface glanrichbex's advice will be very useful but I'll need to consult again to put it into practice!
Thanks guys, rgds CL