who running on svo cooking oil?

[zippy656]

just seen this, any one seen this problem and found an answer??

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=23057&page=1#pid257522

[makeitfit]

OOph Zippy you don't fancy your ring being gummed then :lol
I think as you're running a diesel /veg mix you'll be ok anyway:thumbs
You can change your oil more regularly I guess and check your compression from time to time.
How many miles a year do you do?

[zippy656]

i have run at 100% veggie at times, summer..

9 to 10 K a year, maybe less with fuel as much as it is..


will change oil more.. can only but help..

was wandering if any one else has had / seen this?

[makeitfit]

I think the only way to tell if things are starting to slide would be to take compression readings now and again in 3 months time. Repeat 3 monthly:thumbs
If it starts to fall then do a flush or sell it :lol
I've run mine neat too and now all bio so who knows whats going on in there but I'll keep at it:D

[geoffdown]

i have run at 100% veggie at times, summer..

9 to 10 K a year, maybe less with fuel as much as it is..


will change oil more.. can only but help..

was wandering if any one else has had / seen this?

hi zippy well i no i will get alot of stick from alot of people for saying this but here goes i have now gone away from bio only because the guy producing it has stopped:doh so i have now converted my 2.7tdi bosch system to twin tank so i start up on diesel and after a few mins flick the switch to svo then if i stop the car in the day and i no i will jump back in it before the engine gets cold i leave it on oil at the end of the day i flush the system so only diesel in the ip and injectors system cost me around £150 but u already have the heat exchanger so should be around £100 mark:thumb2

[kwondo]

hi all, i am also running on svo "rapeseed" with a heat echanger, taken off the cooling system, been running for a month or two. usally put about 20 lts of diesel in the tank then fill with veg. seems ok at the moment but i am now concered about this link, i usualy change my engine oil every 5k, do you think this is adequate?

i put the veg into the main tank, as i have not worked out how to use the two tank system, as regards to a lift pump for the auxilary tank of diesel, it is suppost to switch over from diesel when the temp is high enough, and you can also flush the pipes with diesel before you stop/ shut downualy "veg tec" make

starts lumpy in the morning but within a few minutes runs fine, i also have changed my thermostat to an 88 degress one, so the coolant runs a bit hotter than the standard 80 degrees one,

regards Russell

[zippy656]

think we all need to do a bit of reading and some learning here...

[geoffdown]

hi all, i am also running on svo "rapeseed" with a heat echanger, taken off the cooling system, been running for a month or two. usally put about 20 lts of diesel in the tank then fill with veg. seems ok at the moment but i am now concered about this link, i usualy change my engine oil every 5k, do you think this is adequate?

i put the veg into the main tank, as i have not worked out how to use the two tank system, as regards to a lift pump for the auxilary tank of diesel, it is suppost to switch over from diesel when the temp is high enough, and you can also flush the pipes with diesel before you stop/ shut downualy "veg tec" make

starts lumpy in the morning but within a few minutes runs fine, i also have changed my thermostat to an 88 degress one, so the coolant runs a bit hotter than the standard 80 degrees one,

regards Russell
hi mate no lift pump needed for second tank which holds in mine 15l of diesel just an inline bulb primer which once primed you dont need to touch again unless u run the small tank dry. you can get it to change over auto but i like to do it by a 3 way switch as with this ring gumming happens when trying to start from cold but with twi tank will be starting on diesel when cold i will explan more later as got to take dog for walk:thumbs

[Deleted account DD]

I think this was on a thread on here a year or so ago :nenau

Youll get seepage between areas all the time, diesel, SVO or petrol into engine oil or vice versa all of the time. Thats why most engines are designed to "use" a certain amount of oil (not quite as much as vauxhall claimed was normal for the zafira but hey that up to them).

I always change my oil around 5000 miles anyway so I guess suspicion of this supports that theory.

You can get fuel additives that claim to de gum if you reckon thats becoming a problem. I use millers anyway. Perhaps the 1/2 litre of 2 stroke per fill could help?

When i was running on 100% i had read about this problem (and others). Kept my eye on things there was no smell of svo from my oil, nor was there any discernible water in it .

Dont forget engines wear out anyway, all get different levels of ring gum as you would see taking even a newer engine to bits and youll get the symptoms described eventually anyway. On my old cav after a long run the engine oil stank of petrol :lol:lol

Once youre there you get the petrol washing the lube out so it wears quicker, lets more petrol through etc etc.

[kwondo]

[QUOTE=geoffdown;143067]hi mate no lift pump needed for second tank which holds in mine 15l of diesel just an inline bulb primer which once primed you dont need to touch again unless u run the small tank dry. you can get it to change over auto but i like to do it by a 3 way switch as with this ring gumming happens when trying to start from cold but with twi tank will be starting on diesel when cold i will explan more later as got to take dog for walk:thumbs[/QUOTE

hI Geoff, hope you enjoyed the walk, i have allready walked the family dog ! just to clarify where do you connect the auxillary tank in line, as i thought that it would not be sucked up by the injection system, rather than pumped from the lift pump in the tank, also is there a need to re route or reloop the flow of veg oil from the main tanks back to itself to release the build up of possible pressure from the lift pump ? while running on start up diesel? hope that makes some sort of sense?
cheers
Russell

[geoffdown]

[QUOTE=geoffdown;143067]hi mate no lift pump needed for second tank which holds in mine 15l of diesel just an inline bulb primer which once primed you dont need to touch again unless u run the small tank dry. you can get it to change over auto but i like to do it by a 3 way switch as with this ring gumming happens when trying to start from cold but with twi tank will be starting on diesel when cold i will explan more later as got to take dog for walk:thumbs[/QUOTE

hI Geoff, hope you enjoyed the walk, i have allready walked the family dog ! just to clarify where do you connect the auxillary tank in line, as i thought that it would not be sucked up by the injection system, rather than pumped from the lift pump in the tank, also is there a need to re route or reloop the flow of veg oil from the main tanks back to itself to release the build up of possible pressure from the lift pump ? while running on start up diesel? hope that makes some sort of sense?
cheers
Russell

right ot good at putting words down so sorry but here goes with twin tank system the veg goes into the orginal tank diesel in the small tank in boot (my 15l tank from boat shop fits behind the 6/7th seat in the boot so dont lose any space and still fit 7 people in the terrano:thumbs) you then need to get hold of 2 3way valves which link the system together if any1 wants more help please pm me ur mobile no. and i will be happy to talk on phone and tell u all about the twin tank set up in my terrano dont worry im not selling my own set up its i have just fitted the system to my truck so i no alot about it.:thumb2

[geoffdown]

and the gumming does not happen in the engine oil it happens as the un atomised veg oil hit the cylinder walls when cold which will always happen in a single tank system but not in a twin tank system here is the info from the veg site about ring gumming

"Any unburned veggy or partially burned veggy hitting the cylinder-walls will find its way to the Piston-Ring grooves on the next upward stroke of the piston. This veggy will collect in the gap behind the rings and the small clearances either side of the ring and piston. As time heat and plenty of oxygen are available, it breaks down and sets solid, sticking the ring in its groove, so it can no longer follow the irregularities of the cylinder-wall and seal the piston, as it was intended"

[zippy656]

If this is happening is there any way to revers the gumming up??

i was reading else where water injected will help stop this and clean it out to.

or is twin tank the best way to go?


oh yea, PICS on the twin tank system please..

[geoffdown]

If this is happening is there any way to revers the gumming up??

i was reading else where water injected will help stop this and clean it out to.

or is twin tank the best way to go?


oh yea, PICS on the twin tank system please..

because i did motor engineering i would go for the twin tank set u back round £100 or so but be careful with ur heat exchanger as if its really good and heats the fuel up well dont run 100% diesel as the lubrecating of the diesel goes the hotter u heat it up not good for ur ip, the post u read was mostly about di engines like the 3.0l di terrano but can get it on idi as well but not as bad, thats y i went for the twin tank system in total took me 2 full days to install but i was also fault finding and air leak in my fuel system.

[kwondo]

hi geoff
i have the 2 solenoid system with a return loop connection,s just need to know where to plumb in the second tank, ie before the fuel filter or somehow direct at the main tank, would like to pm you my phone number for a chat or i could call you if convienant, just dont know how to pm?, tomorrow i will put some pics on if i can,

[kwondo]

Thanks Geoff for the chat will keep you informed how it goes over the weekend,

cheers mate,

[geoffdown]

If this is happening is there any way to revers the gumming up??

i was reading else where water injected will help stop this and clean it out to.

or is twin tank the best way to go?


oh yea, PICS on the twin tank system please..hi zippy some pics 4u
http://s1190.photobucket.com/albums/z441/geoffdown/

[geoffdown]

Thanks Geoff for the chat will keep you informed how it goes over the weekend,

cheers mate,
no probs good luck you should be fine:thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

and the gumming does not happen in the engine oil it happens as the un atomised veg oil hit the cylinder walls when cold which will always happen in a single tank system but not in a twin tank system here is the info from the veg site about ring gumming



Not entirely correct.

ALL engines end up with gumming of one form or another. That seems to be a point being missed here.

[geoffdown]

Not entirely correct.

ALL engines end up with gumming of one form or another. That seems to be a point being missed here.

sorry i no that gumming will happen but what i was trying to say is that in twin tank the veg oil will never be cold sorry didnt word it correctly:thumb2 but single tank on vegie will gum more than twin tank vegie .think thats better put was never any good at english as u can tell.:lol

[Fez_uk]

do you run separate fuel feeds from the engine bay (supply and return) to the 2nd tank?

[Deleted account DD]

If you google "what causes piston ring gumming up" you will find nearly 2 million related links.

Out of those I read (about 2 pages worth) not one was related to svo.

Im not saying in any way that svo wont cause gumming, what i am saying is because that one article has been unearthed it doesnt mean svo is the gumming anti christ of the automotive world.

The last engine i dismantled and had cruddy rings was an 1800 cvh ford engine ie petrol. If engine oil doesnt contribute to gumming up where had it come from on that? as previously mentioned oil does make its way into the upper part of the piston bore on any car.

Diesel isnt warm when it first kicks off, nor is petrol. Why is svo any worse ??????

Its more likely that the lack of detergents in svo contribute to accelerated gumming up.

All of those points are very very very basic engine factors.

[Deleted account DD]

sorry i no that gumming will happen but what i was trying to say is that in twin tank the veg oil will never be cold sorry didnt word it correctly:thumb2 but single tank on vegie will gum more than twin tank vegie .think thats better put was never any good at english as u can tell.:lol

no problem with your terminology Im questioning some of your theory :thumb2

any unburnt cold fuel from pigs piss to avtur has the potential to cause problems.

If you use an electric preheater in conjunction with a water heat exchanger you will have warmer svo from kick off.

Therefore no difference to the viscosity and atomised fuel going through the injectors be it cold normal diesel or warmed svo.

Its long been recognised that the lack of lube or detergent in svo can POTENTIALLY cause problems.

[Deleted account DD]

do you run separate fuel feeds from the engine bay (supply and return) to the 2nd tank?

No need to run seperate feeds. So long as the switch. Solenoid or manual works! One i worked on had a feed from the diesel tank and the svo tank at the rear to a solenoid then forward from there on the existing line.

Didnt even consider the return , I presume it went into the old big tank. I wouldnt have thought it would upset anything to leave it standard :nenau

[geoffdown]

do you run separate fuel feeds from the engine bay (supply and return) to the 2nd tank?no just feed

[geoffdown]

no problem with your terminology Im questioning some of your theory :thumb2

any unburnt cold fuel from pigs piss to avtur has the potential to cause problems.

If you use an electric preheater in conjunction with a water heat exchanger you will have warmer svo from kick off.

Therefore no difference to the viscosity and atomised fuel going through the injectors be it cold normal diesel or warmed svo.

Its long been recognised that the lack of lube or detergent in svo can POTENTIALLY cause problems.

yes gumming come when fuel is not atomised correctly if the petrol engine is not running how it should do that will cause gumming as will if the diesel is ot atomised due to poor injector but svo is thicker than diesel so thats y u run on diesel first the oil when warm ,with a big heat exchange and electric in line heater u will still have cold svo in the ip and most importantely the injectors so more risk of gumming when burning cold hard to atomised svo compared to cold easier to atomised diesel that to me seams like good theroy to me but thats me making it as safe as i can for my truck i also dont like the ip straining on cold thick svo when starting but every1 to their own.:thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

This article that seems to have caused such a flap http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8020
is articulately written by somone who clearly has a decent understanding though it lapses almost into a business case for a twin tank system.

It is flawed as his opinions take no account or explain why all engines get the dreaded gum and the practical element is based on one engine strip. The rest is theoretical.

The parameters of that engine were not discussed. Had the thermostat been knackered and it had ran at a low temp? how many miles? what had it been ran on prior? what engine lube had been in? how often had it been changed?

I reckon, and its why i used millers and 2 stroke (which still brought it in cheaper than derv) , its the lack of detergents svo that could cause the problems, but then you know that when you lob it in.

Even so theres no hard comparative evidence to support that :D

[(RIP) PLANK]

I think the best argument in this has been from Daved, and you know we don't always see eye to eye. Did i read somewhere that this problem is associated with the use of synthetic and semi synthetic engine oils, and is less of an issue with mineral oils?

[geoffdown]

I think the best argument in this has been from Daved, and you know we don't always see eye to eye. Did i read somewhere that this problem is associated with the use of synthetic and semi synthetic engine oils, and is less of an issue with mineral oils?

i am not sure if hes 100% correct i will keep using my system as i know it releaves the strain on ip when starting with cold svo in the system but you forget i run on pure diesel every morning so i do get the deterants from that cleaning things out as some people have said before else where on here with single tank running 100% svo u still have to start with cold svo in the ip and injectors but not with a twin tank i am ot selling anything so not promoting twin tank i will just be here if peeps need any help on the matter i bought all my thing from diff people of ebay and found the bits cheaper thats all:thumb2

[(RIP) PLANK]

i am not sure if hes 100% correct i will keep using my system as i know it releaves the strain on ip when starting with cold svo in the system but you forget i run on pure diesel every morning so i do get the deterants from that cleaning things out as some people have said before else where on here with single tank running 100% svo u still have to start with cold svo in the ip and injectors but not with a twin tank i am ot selling anything so not promoting twin tank i will just be here if peeps need any help on the matter i bought all my thing from diff people of ebay and found the bits cheaper thats all:thumb2

I wasn't disregarding your point of view, just agreeing with the 'all engines gum up eventually' bit. I am sure it is to a greater or lesser degree depending on how you go about it :thumb2

[solarman216]

Well just my thoughts on the matter, if you are running twin tanks, then you need to make sure the return goes to the correct tank, but also if you want to start on derv in the morning you will need to switch to derv a few minutes before you shut down for the night or your pump will be full of whatever it is in the second tank, I do not think I could be doing with all that messing around, Rick

[makeitfit]

All the more reason for bio :D
However there is a three way auto switching gizmo that does all that return to the right tank thing so no big deal really. Just remember as you say Rick to switch to diesel before bed:rolleyes:

[zippy656]

would running deisel one tank in 4 make some diference, help clean the inside?

[geoffdown]

Well just my thoughts on the matter, if you are running twin tanks, then you need to make sure the return goes to the correct tank, but also if you want to start on derv in the morning you will need to switch to derv a few minutes before you shut down for the night or your pump will be full of whatever it is in the second tank, I do not think I could be doing with all that messing around, Rickhi well u dont have a return to the small tank in the boot when running on diesel the return gets looped back to the surply line then when u switch to veg oil it returns to the same tank it cam from as makeit fit says you just flick a switch 1-2miles before bed:thumbs

[geoffdown]

would running deisel one tank in 4 make some diference, help clean the inside?

u have to be care full as u have a heat exchanger on a single tank which means if u filled up with diesel, diesel would be going through the heat exchanger and u dont want to heat neat diesel up too much as it loses it lub propties and thats bad for the ip

[Deleted account DD]

i am not sure if hes 100% correct i will keep using my system as i know it releaves the strain on ip when starting with cold svo in the system but you forget i run on pure diesel every morning so i do get the deterants from that cleaning things out as some people have said before else where on here with single tank running 100% svo u still have to start with cold svo in the ip and injectors but not with a twin tank i am ot selling anything so not promoting twin tank i will just be here if peeps need any help on the matter i bought all my thing from diff people of ebay and found the bits cheaper thats all:thumb2

Im not claiming to be 100% correct, farrrrrrrr from it.

The main advantage of a twin tank system seems to be that cold diesel, ie at the viscosity the engine is designed to run on, means smoother cold running. Makes sense.

Progressing that point though raises the question how can you replicate the viscosity of diesel with svo particularly from cold. The answer seems to be that different engines will tolerate different ranges of viscosity. The T2 seems pretty cool with a wide range so hot running isnt a problem.

However the logical answer to cold starting is either use diesel ie twin tank or heat the svo ie electric heater supported by a properly installed water heat exchanger.

I cannot find any evidence (including that flawed article) to demonstrate as opposed to express an opinion , that a twin tank will prevent gumming. It will no doubt be more efficient than a heater on its own for very cold starting of course but does it make that much difference over and above other potentially cheaper measures, I dont KNOW and nor does it appear any one else :thumb2

I am open to be persuaded it does though :D:D:D:thumbs

[Deleted account DD]

would running deisel one tank in 4 make some diference, help clean the inside?


yes :thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

and you know we don't always see eye to eye.

:naughty:naughty:naughty:naughty:naughty;)



Did i read somewhere that this problem is associated with the use of synthetic and semi synthetic engine oils, and is less of an issue with mineral oils?

I seem to recall that too, not sure of the details :thumb2 I was told years ago that regular changing of oil using a decent quality can reduce gum and sludge for minimum effort :thumb2

[Deleted account DD]

if you want to start on derv in the morning you will need to switch to derv a few minutes before you shut down for the night or your pump will be full of whatever it is in the second tank, I do not think I could be doing with all that messing around, Rick

That comes with the kit instructions :thumb2

however theres a very easy way to deal with at least some of the human factor for just a few quid if youre using an electrical solenoid.

All you have to do is wire in a thermostat so it switches over once the engine reaches a certain temperature. For pre shut down (and this is back to manual operation) you put an override switch into the circuit to switch back to diesel. Once youve switched off the ign switch the switch back so once you start up next its back to auto.

still a faff but only about 50% of previous plus takes the guess work out of switching onto svo :thumb2