View Full Version : DVLA Bar Stewards...
lacroupade
22-12-2010, 12:37
Parked my beemer up in the field when I went to France at end of May and only just started it up and sent it down the garage for MoT....meantime tax had run out end Sept and now I have an £80 fine for not renewing it or SORNing it.
WTF happened to 'innocent til proven guilty'???
I beleive you have to let them know it's off the road. I hate the dvla.
They fined my dad £80 for no tax, He had tax but forgot to display it!
Parked my beemer up in the field when I went to France at end of May and only just started it up and sent it down the garage for MoT....meantime tax had run out end Sept and now I have an £80 fine for not renewing it or SORNing it.
WTF happened to 'innocent til proven guilty'???
Yes you have to sorn it when tax runs out.I recently had an £80 fine for one that i did sorn on the internet had confirmation email that had gone through still got fine.Needless to say i complained and got the fine torn up dont trust the dvla always keep emails and letters from them for at least a year.Have been cases on watchdog of people getting fines for cars that they sold a year ago unless you have the letter confiming that you sold it the fine stands.
Parked my beemer up in the field when I went to France at end of May and only just started it up and sent it down the garage for MoT....meantime tax had run out end Sept and now I have an £80 fine for not renewing it or SORNing it.
WTF happened to 'innocent til proven guilty'???
Innocent til proven guilty only applies in Democracies,not police states,unfortunately.
(RIP) PLANK
22-12-2010, 13:43
I was isued with an aoutomatic £80 fine for no tax, the disc was in the window and was printed at the DVLA office in Birmingham, I had to photocopy it and send them a copy with a written explanation before they would believe me! :eek:
regardless of what the politicians say, we live in a police state controlled by a minority who manipulate to suit their own pockets................. it's all about control.
I wonder,
(given the state of the economy (caused by greedy bankers in the main), and the fact that VAT will rise in January 2011 together with interest rates, fuel etc..........)
if the people of this green and ancient land will revolt?
Maybe it is time for a change of politics? perhaps a revolution is needed to spring clean the greedy fat cats?
It'll never happen of course, the british are far too reserved and polite,
For the record, I'm not advocating revolution, simply suggesting the possibility.....
Saw a program on telly the other night about how the Government dealt with the free music concerts of the 80's and 90's. Did nothing for years and then put the boot in and brought in the new legislation in 96. Made very interesting viewing and explains how people were basically got under the Government's thumb again. Ocelot is dead right,it's all about control.
MudLifeCrisis
22-12-2010, 14:32
When i bought my Landrover it was declared sorn and I wrongfully assumed that it transfered over. Called them when I received the fine notice and asked why they hadn't sent a reminder as they would have done if it had been taxed and due to run out, after all they had just sent me the logbook.
I was told they didn't do this and that it was my responsability to know the rules.I bet they make a fortune from people this way.
Paid the fine , learnt the lesson ;O(
Brian
(RIP) PLANK
22-12-2010, 15:20
regardless of what the politicians say, we live in a police state controlled by a minority who manipulate to suit their own pockets................. it's all about control.
I wonder,
(given the state of the economy (caused by greedy bankers in the main), and the fact that VAT will rise in January 2011 together with interest rates, fuel etc..........)
if the people of this green and ancient land will revolt?
Maybe it is time for a change of politics? perhaps a revolution is needed to spring clean the greedy fat cats?
It'll never happen of course, the british are far too reserved and polite,
For the record, I'm not advocating revolution, simply suggesting the possibility.....
It's all correct, though i am quite looking forward to the interest rates going up! about time it was worth while having money in the bank!
lacroupade
22-12-2010, 15:50
regardless of what the politicians say, we live in a police state controlled by a minority who manipulate to suit their own pockets................. it's all about control.
I wonder,
(given the state of the economy (caused by greedy bankers in the main), and the fact that VAT will rise in January 2011 together with interest rates, fuel etc..........)
if the people of this green and ancient land will revolt?
Maybe it is time for a change of politics? perhaps a revolution is needed to spring clean the greedy fat cats?
It'll never happen of course, the british are far too reserved and polite,
For the record, I'm not advocating revolution, simply suggesting the possibility.....
Ocelot is revolting! :lol:lol:lol:lol
sorry couldn't resist! :thumb2
merely suggesting................................
"wonders if the fuel protests will happen again soon" ??
the cost of a barrel of oil has come down yet fuel prices are going through the roof.............. another example of rip off multi nationals...... again !!
Or perhaps if people do protest, the police state will arrest those who do so, there was a recent case reported on radio 2 of a 14 yr old who created a facebook page to save his local youth club, his local mp was non other than david cameron. The lad protested, peacefully, outside the con club office.
He was later on that week, taken out of class by the police, given a strong talking to and warnings of being arrested/prosecuted etc. So he went on jeremy Vine's midday program to push his case,
cameron, true to his nature, made no response........... why should he? after all, the lad was under the age of 18 and couldn't vote........
Kind of shames most of us doesn't it, that kind of belief ???
rayf3262
22-12-2010, 16:41
Less than 12 months ago I bought a 15Kg Butane refill (Calor) and it cost 18 quid... just bought another 29.99 and that was direct from Calor... ouch!
(RIP) PLANK
22-12-2010, 16:52
Less than 12 months ago I bought a 15Kg Butane refill (Calor) and it cost 18 quid... just bought another 29.99 and that was direct from Calor... ouch!
simple answer to that one is don't buy calor! I use 19k propane fomr a local supplier £17.60 :thumb2
As for fuel protests the government has divided the public into many factions now, through tax brackets on cars, anti 4x4 media, legalising bio diesel and veg oil (up to 2500 litres) new tax rules for agricultural fuel use etc. So th old 'divide and conquer' technique has taken the wind out of any real oposition.
MudLifeCrisis
22-12-2010, 16:53
Less than 12 months ago I bought a 15Kg Butane refill (Calor) and it cost 18 quid... just bought another 29.99 and that was direct from Calor... ouch!
Ours are only £28.99.
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 16:54
Unfortunately its nothing to do with democracy, police state or otherwise.
The offence is whats termed "an absolute" its either occured or not. On this occasion it occured because noting was registered one way or the other.
Democracy and judicial process does allow apeal to prove innocence but theres no need to look at anything other than are dvla correct and thats a yes or no or is there mitigation such as letter lost in post ;)
Do the crime, pay the fine :lol:lol:lol:lol
My personal thoughts are theyre a bit bloody pedantic and I wish they were as fast off the mark refunding :thumbs
Sorry,daved, it's not clear from your reply whether you believe the UK is a Democracy or a Police State and I would be interested to know which you think it is, because of your job primarily. If you can explain your answer in simple terms,that would be great, because from where I'm sitting, the UK is not Democratic and the more I see the way the Police behave on TV ,the more I'm inclined to think it IS a Police State. That worries me because our Government have a long established tradition of following what happens in the UK:( Not trying to cause anyone offence but I really believe there is a whole world crap coming down the tracks and not just in the UK but the US and rest of Europe too. I think Ocelot has it right,revolution or at the very least large scale civil disobedience.
lacroupade
22-12-2010, 17:32
Unfortunately its nothing to do with democracy, police state or otherwise.
The offence is whats termed "an absolute" its either occured or not. On this occasion it occured because noting was registered one way or the other.
Democracy and judicial process does allow apeal to prove innocence but theres no need to look at anything other than are dvla correct and thats a yes or no or is there mitigation such as letter lost in post ;)
Do the crime, pay the fine :lol:lol:lol:lol
My personal thoughts are theyre a bit bloody pedantic and I wish they were as fast off the mark refunding :thumbs
But thats my point.
Its a crime to drive my car untaxed on a public highway, but since when is it a crime to park it in a field and mind my own bloody business?:eek:
You start to understand these US survivalists a bit more every day!
[QUOTE=lacroupade;121233]But thats my point.
, but since when is it a crime to park it in a field and mind my own bloody business?:eek:
About 10 years now its called continuous registaration it is free to declare sorn (for now at least):doh
(RIP) PLANK
22-12-2010, 20:01
i'm with lacroupade on this, an automatic fine for a crime that may never have happened with no evidence to prove it has, is rediculous. But i suppose it's the same as having a TV and not turning it on for months, you would still be fined for not having a licence.
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 20:30
I think the budding revolutionaries need to chill and take a step back.
Please explain to me why the actions of the dvla on an offence (not a crime incidentally) warrant describing the UK as a police state ?
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 20:36
i'm with lacroupade on this, an automatic fine for a crime that may never have happened with no evidence to prove it has, is rediculous. But i suppose it's the same as having a TV and not turning it on for months, you would still be fined for not having a licence.
its a penalty not a crime (i think its a civil penalty??) for failing to comply with very basic guidelines and rules.
The guidelines are actually in place for good reason and work very very well.They are also incredibly simple and on the same document as the retaxing instructions.
Its one of those things where the penalised who drop a bollock feel hard done by but those of us who can use them to take unlawful drivers off the road and crush unroadworthy dangerous cars. It also enables community vehicles to be dealt with.
Definitely a case of the innocent have noting to worry about.
The people I have heard complain the most about this system either dont understand it, have fallen foul of it , are civil liberty biased for the sake of it or do have something to hide.
;)
I have my personal thoughts about dvla but theyre not remotely relevant to the principle of sorn.
its a penalty not a crime (i think its a civil penalty??) for failing to comply with very basic guidelines and rules.
The guidelines are actually in place for good reason and work very very well.They are also incredibly simple and on the same document as the retaxing instructions.
Its one of those things where the penalised who drop a bollock feel hard done by but those of us who can use them to take unlawful drivers off the road and crush unroadworthy dangerous cars. It also enables community vehicles to be dealt with.
Definitely a case of the innocent have noting to worry about.
The people I have heard complain the most about this system either dont understand it, have fallen foul of it , are civil liberty biased for the sake of it or do have something to hide.
;)
I have my personal thoughts about dvla but theyre not remotely relevant to the principle of sorn.
"Definitely a case of the innocent have noting to worry about"
unless im my case when i declared sorn still they tried to issue a fine
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 20:41
Sorry,daved, it's not clear from your reply whether you believe the UK is a Democracy or a Police State and I would be interested to know which you think it is, because of your job primarily. If you can explain your answer in simple terms,that would be great, because from where I'm sitting, the UK is not Democratic and the more I see the way the Police behave on TV ,the more I'm inclined to think it IS a Police State. That worries me because our Government have a long established tradition of following what happens in the UK:( Not trying to cause anyone offence but I really believe there is a whole world crap coming down the tracks and not just in the UK but the US and rest of Europe too. I think Ocelot has it right,revolution or at the very least large scale civil disobedience.
My personal thoughts are not at all relevant to this thread.
However I can state with some authority (and education) that the uk is not remotely a police state.
I also struggle to think of any truly democratic country.
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 21:09
the more I see the way the Police behave on TV ,the more I'm inclined to think it IS a Police State.
compare the basis of that perception to the similar example of condemnation through not knowing or understanding the full story http://www.nissan4x4ownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10878
:thumb2
the system in place is crap the whole sorn thing isnt to keep the illegal off the road, if it is it is doing a very poor job
on average how many illegal driver actually put the car in their name, we have some irish lads down our street that were trying to sell us a car that they have owned for about 8mths the details weren't in their name and the car was registered to a different address than their's probably a mates
what can dvla do then just issue fines ??
i had one from dvla when i was in cornwall and we fell foul of the law in regards to insurance one, car was taxed and moted just the car its self wasn't insured tho but we were insured to drive any vehicle under our policy, the car was taken and towed away until we could prove our insurance cover, we had an apology from the officer but wasnt give the vehicle back for free would have cost us £180 for a £100 scrap car (was for parts)so we signed it over to be scrapped the v5 was still in the car, 2 years latter we got a fine from dvla and was told that if we did not pay up the car would be clamped, well quick phone cal and all was sorted, was even down as scraped lol
the country is more like a dictatorship than democratic, if the people of this country stood up and done something about it, i think a few things would change.
their are far too many problems in this country
the police are at the moment ok and very undermanned but if the criminals were to ever get properly organized then it would stand no chance same as the government
the people of the country need to unite and then you may see some changes, but it will never happen we are too much of a bitchy state than a action one
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 22:17
Oh dear another potential revolutionary. Fact of the matter is no one has yet provided a lasting example of efficient democracy as they perceive, yet this country teeters along constitutionally much the same as ever with the lack of democracy and free speech moaned about allowing views like some above to be expressed :doh
Fact of the matter is public organisations are more accountable to the people now than ever before.
As far as taking scrappers of the road or not it does help.
Fair point if crims want cars they'll get them, a bit like guns but there's absolutely no doubt that the laws now in place have helped deal with them and other dodgy vehicles.
Organised criminality has and always will be a problem. Disorganised criminality becomes an easier target.
Car seized wrongly? mistakes happen. I simply dont believe the account above is the full story. I am well aware of cars seized in error. All costs were reimbursed without question if it was not the drivers fault. saves a lot of litigation ;)
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 22:25
the people of the country need to unite and then you may see some changes, but it will never happen we are too much of a bitchy state than a action one
lmfao......................
Having just been round Tescos Id say most people cant organise a weeks shopping, let alone a revolution.
Scargill tried and rightly failed..............who? :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
lol, oh i know but surly dave you cant agree what is currently going on in the country and something does need to be done, take the banks at the mo heavily bailed out by government and this year some people's bonuses are hitting 2mil yet we are in a recession, yet the staff at the banks get rewarded for putting us their
it was that my step dad was from turkey and didnt understand fully what was being said
he was asked about insurance and he said yes i have insurance for any car, the legislation of the insurance companies changed at the point but it had only just changed that the car need to be insured and not just the driver but he had only just got it that day, i was then phoned by the police when he got stopped due to lack of communication understanding, i had no problem with it happening it was the dvla thing that i was on about, but thought i better give a bit of back story
Deleted account DD
22-12-2010, 22:53
I do feel sorry for folk who get it wrong or are victims of someone else getting it wrong 9 times out of 10 they are thoroughly decent folk :thumb2
I also think the country is in shit state.
Im not bright enough to work out exactly what made it go wrong but I hold the "New Labour" administration massively to blame.
We've had some awful politicians from all sides of the fence but nothing quite as bad as a government who were voted in because the leader had a nice smile, was everyones best mate but had no decent policies. The list is endless but one of his greatest faux pas was declaring Brown one of the greatest chancellors ever :doh:doh:doh:doh
;)
I do feel sorry for folk who get it wrong or are victims of someone else getting it wrong 9 times out of 10 they are thoroughly decent folk :thumb2
I also think the country is in shit state.
Im not bright enough to work out exactly what made it go wrong but I hold the "New Labour" administration massively to blame.
We've had some awful politicians from all sides of the fence but nothing quite as bad as a government who were voted in because the leader had a nice smile, was everyones best mate but had no decent policies. The list is endless but one of his greatest faux pas was declaring Brown one of the greatest chancellors ever :doh:doh:doh:doh
;)
i havnt voted in the last 2 elections just because their isnt anything worth voting for and all the spiel they give out is just lies so you vote for them
wounder what would happen if no one voted :naughty:naughty
(RIP) PLANK
23-12-2010, 00:05
Karl and DaveD you have it in one! New labour reperesneted a shift from legal rartional authority to charismatic authority. And in truth were just (initialy) an extension of the Conservative government they replaced. They used artificialy inflated house prices to bolster a failing economy until the economic cycle was complete and the property values had to stand up in the 'real world' not just on paper and it all went 'tits up'.
The real 'austerity' move we need here is to give people backa decent return on their savings and investments and to slash property prices - but obviously that is easier said than done and we area ll in for grsdualy shirnking property prices combined with massive inflation (in real terms) to close the gap 'relatively' unitl the averags couple on the average wage can once again afford the average house.
But i'm just a Social Scientist with 9 years of Uni and many years relavent experience in the field of Social Policy, so I know form experience most people would rather listen to the bloke down the pub :thumbs
I think the budding revolutionaries need to chill and take a step back.
Please explain to me why the actions of the dvla on an offence (not a crime incidentally) warrant describing the UK as a police state ?
Sorry Dave,think it's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. I'm a million miles from being a revolutionary but I can't see how Police in the UK can behave the way they do now and people just sit back and let it happen. They are supposed to be there for the good of the people,right? So how does speed checks on motorways,fining people for being a few days or weeks out of road tax or MOT benefit society? A lot of the laws that the Police enforce are nothing to do with maintaining a law abiding society. Shouldn't they behave in a manner that keeps the public onside so when they need their cooperation it is there for them, not alienate the people who they are supposed to be protecting? I know it will take a lot for me to help our Police here over the way my son was treated after his car was stolen. Almost four months for it to be returned and numerous phone calls to the Superintendent. Allegedly it was being processed by forensics for evidence but funnily enough they missed the gloves and stilson which were in clear view on the back seat. Anyway,you wear the the uniform so it is reasonable,I suppose ,to accept that your view would be a very narrow one. As to taking a step back and chilling,I'm very chilled but no matter how chilled I am it does not change the facts that the UK ,because of the Governments actions and the actions of the Police over the last 30-40 years, is nothing close to being a Democracy and nor is likely to be any time soon. But you don't need me to tell you that,you live there,so you know only too well. Have a Happy and Peaceful Christmas and New Year:thumb2
Deleted account DD
23-12-2010, 09:33
Sorry Dave,think it's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. I'm a million miles from being a revolutionary but I can't see how Police in the UK can behave the way they do now and people just sit back and let it happen. They are supposed to be there for the good of the people,right? So how does speed checks on motorways,fining people for being a few days or weeks out of road tax or MOT benefit society? A lot of the laws that the Police enforce are nothing to do with maintaining a law abiding society. Shouldn't they behave in a manner that keeps the public onside so when they need their cooperation it is there for them, not alienate the people who they are supposed to be protecting? I know it will take a lot for me to help our Police here over the way my son was treated after his car was stolen. Almost four months for it to be returned and numerous phone calls to the Superintendent. Allegedly it was being processed by forensics for evidence but funnily enough they missed the gloves and stilson which were in clear view on the back seat. Anyway,you wear the the uniform so it is reasonable,I suppose ,to accept that your view would be a very narrow one. As to taking a step back and chilling,I'm very chilled but no matter how chilled I am it does not change the facts that the UK ,because of the Governments actions and the actions of the Police over the last 30-40 years, is nothing close to being a Democracy and nor is likely to be any time soon. But you don't need me to tell you that,you live there,so you know only too well. Have a Happy and Peaceful Christmas and New Year:thumb2
No problems but Im afraid youre coming at this from exactly the wrong aproach. The very fact Im in the system (dont even own a uniform anymore!!) actually gives me a much wider view. Having studied politics (and passed the exam .... just) :lol and been a staff rep (we're not allowed unions as such) for quite some time I definitely have a grip on the bigger view.
The rule of law is very simple. You know the boundaries and you play within them. Your view is clearly based on perception (and incidentally you havent commented on the superb example set by the bmw vid of how people get it badly wrong) and the unfortunate incident you have been involved in. I have genuine sympathy at your frustration and It goes against the grain but I received such bad service from a call taker (not cop) in a neighbouring area that led to a lady getting bitten by a mastiff I officially complained. I suggest anyone who gets treat as badly does so too.
I simply dont have time at the mo to answer (but could if you want) all the points you raise but one I will make re fining people for being out of date on tax, mot etc.
Did you know that the vast majority , and I mean most , vehicles that are out on one have a problem with it or are hiding something. ie they cant tax because they have no mot or they have no mot because the car is an mot fail when its finally if ever presented.
Now that is fact. If you dont want those people dealing with write to your mp but Im not sure theyd get away with pushing it :augie
Further fact is the SORN etc makes it easier to deal with them. Been there and got a sack of T shirts.
Unfortuantely the rules are applied without discretion (see my earlier comment on them being pedantic) so theres no leeway for "decent" folk who drop a bollock.
That is a failing but it errs on the side of the law abiding :thumbs
cheers
lacroupade
23-12-2010, 12:41
I simply dont have time at the mo to answer (but could if you want) all the points you raise but one I will make re fining people for being out of date on tax, mot etc.
Did you know that the vast majority , and I mean most , vehicles that are out on one have a problem with it or are hiding something. ie they cant tax because they have no mot or they have no mot because the car is an mot fail when its finally if ever presented.
Now that is fact. If you dont want those people dealing with write to your mp but Im not sure theyd get away with pushing it :augie
Further fact is the SORN etc makes it easier to deal with them. Been there and got a sack of T shirts.
Unfortuantely the rules are applied without discretion (see my earlier comment on them being pedantic) so theres no leeway for "decent" folk who drop a bollock.
That is a failing but it errs on the side of the law abiding :thumbs
cheers
I love a good shindig LOL!:thumb2
But Dave, you hit the nail on the head there. Firstly you can't equitably go against the natural justice of "innocent til proven guilty"....while I recognise the issues you raise, its the wrong way to tackle them. The courts might as well start sending me a summons (without any evidence on their part) for using red diesel, or for breaking any law or regulation you like, on the basis that (i) I might have done something like that, and (ii) its somehow my responsibility to prove that I didn't do it, even though no actual offence even bloody well ocurred!
I think what people like Liam are rightly pointing out is the way in which the police force is increasingly being used as a political tool (or at least thats the perception). The student riots are a case in point (unless there was advance intelligence) and I know it all turned to sh1te but the leftys would argue that was possibly due to the weight or manner of policing (I am totally with the scuffers on this one by the way!).
Fining someone who's car is parked up in a bloody field for six months is as bad as, or worse, than speed cameras for the damage it does, even though there is no connection with the police. I mean its an offence not to display a tax disc on a public isn't it, but why should I need to inform the gestapo that I'm not driving my car and its off the highway? I mean the roads are full of CCTV and ANPR cameras apparently, or we could get radical and put more bobbies back on the beat LOL.
I just resent the default assumption, without evidence, that I'm breaking the law!!
Happy Crimbo! :thumb2
Deleted account DD
23-12-2010, 14:22
Short reply from phone !!!
No, nothing wrong with a good debate. If we were all agreeing it would mean some one wasn't thinking ;)
Thing is Paul, you are guilty. Lol
The offence is an absolute and they've been around for years. You do not have to automatically accept the ticket anyway, there's no presumption of guilt, its effectively an accusation of guilt. Challenge the ticket and you enter further due process. Its exactly the same as going to court to enter a plea only quicker and easier for everyone including the accused.
Accepting and paying is a guilty plea, challenging is a not guilty. Simples ;)
They pursued me a while back for a car I scrapped. They also chased me for one I'd sold. Challenged and won easily on both counts.
Deleted account DD
23-12-2010, 14:38
Anpr is superb. It can detect uninsured untaxed or anything else realted to a vrm that can be justified. It is only as good as the data programed in and the conditions under which thatdata can be held are very stringent. They have to be justified iaw the NIM and data protection to name just 2. They are also regulalry and harshly weeded.
The sorn bussiness is one area that provides superb data for them. I know errors do occur but trust me errors are fewer and more quickly resolved than previously under "lthe good old system"
It is an area where the innocent have significantly less to fear than they used to and an awful lot to be thankful for.
Cctv is far from the silver bullet its seen as and speed cameras are shite the way they've been used in this country.
One thing that really cracks me up in debates like this is the fact most of potential revolutionaries talk about changing things. Let's all have arevolution and then set up................errrrrrrr..........what? Dunno butlets have some buzzwords and pr. lmao
What they don't realise is that they would then find themselves on the opp side of the fence with other groups saying "they're crap, let's change them and the system"
But we've already seen that, new labour it was called and as a result of their activities I've just been reading an email describing a process that's going to decide if I still have a job. Oh happy days.
Anpr is superb. It can detect uninsured untaxed or anything else realted to a vrm that can be justified. It is only as good as the data programed in and the conditions under which thatdata can be held are very stringent. They have to be justified iaw the NIM and data protection to name just 2. They are also regulalry and harshly weeded.
The sorn bussiness is one area that provides superb data for them. I know errors do occur but trust me errors are fewer and more quickly resolved than previously under "lthe good old system"
It is an area where the innocent have significantly less to fear than they used to and an awful lot to be thankful for.
Cctv is far from the silver bullet its seen as and speed cameras are shite the way they've been used in this country.
One thing that really cracks me up in debates like this is the fact most of potential revolutionaries talk about changing things. Let's all have arevolution and then set up................errrrrrrr..........what? Dunno butlets have some buzzwords and pr. lmao
What they don't realise is that they would then find themselves on the opp side of the fence with other groups saying "they're crap, let's change them and the system"
But we've already seen that, new labour it was called and as a result of their activities I've just been reading an email describing a process that's going to decide if I still have a job. Oh happy days.
As I said,I'm not even close to being or wanting to be a revolutionary, it is usually people with a vested interest in the status quo who vociferously defend it. If a system is a good one, it doesn't need defending as people can see that it works. However ,that doesn't mean it shouldn't be analysed or criticised as that is how things generally improve. It's probably fair to say that most people would like to live in peace and harmony for most of their lives but that is not the way society currently is , so the system probably needs to be reviewed regularly. I'm sure ,Dave, that in the course of your work you regularly see situations where peoples perception of an event is skewed,either because of their social status,neighbourhood,life experience etc; so the fact that some of what you say may very well be 100% factual, if peoples perception is otherwise, then that becomes reality for them, regardless of the actual facts. Therefore, if Paul believes that the DVLA system is flawed,and other people ,yourself included, also had dubious fines imposed on occasion, then that becomes the reality "the DVLA system is flawed". Acknowledging that the system is flawed does not repair the flaw and only aggravates people further, as it then shows the stupidity of a system that is not fit for purpose but is kept in use.
(RIP) PLANK
23-12-2010, 20:11
It's a strange truth that comunism as peoposed by Marx & Engles has never realy been tried., just a lennonist interpretation and it doesn't work!
Another strnage truth, real democracy exists no where on earth, the "democracy" we have in britain is a 'legal rational' democracy that also doesn't work.
We have a fairly young system of government - think of how long we lived in a true monarchy by comparison - and toadya we have an odd mix of several systems -it's time for a change!
In order to hasten the rate of the present system loosing it's legitemacy the most effective - non voiolent - approach is to simply abstain from voting.
If voting can change anyhting, it ill only be change withing the current political sytem - what we need is a new one!
So for a real revloution, simply do nothing! don't get involved with the present political set up, either to support it or to try and bring it down - simply ignore it and the next stage of our mutual governance will come along that little bit quicker!
Thats me off my soap box now :thumbs
Deleted account DD
23-12-2010, 20:30
One thing you will never have seen me post is that the system is perfect, far from it :thumb2
I also hope you do not count me as desiring to maintain the status quo. I am actually regarded as quite progressive and open to change ;) what I do want is whats best for me but i must also be able to sleep at night with a reasonably clear conscience. I think its fair to say most decent people are the same. Obviously many claim submitting politicians aren't but hey :nenau as i said the system aint perfect.
As far as perception goes, perception certainly proves the basis for opinion but not that often for evidence. We all need rules to live by, whether you aproach the boundaries or breach them or are even aware of them you generally do and should live within them in any society or group.
Decent folk even set their own rules when there's nothing to guide them. However common sense and common decency and instinct for whats right isn't actually that common these days.
Plus the last govt set a record for volume of new legislation passed. That has brought statute further and further towards everyone making things less flexible and no room for discretion. I don't like that but I have to live with it. But it certainly isnt a police state, more a nannified existence because many of the rules though adhered to are rarely enforced because its so impractical.
That means when people like paul commit an offence they're automatically hit. Enhanced automated admin also plays a part in that.
So thats where we are and some of the moves are superb others crap. The sorn admin is something any decent person doing "the right thing" has nothing at all to worry about and the benefits of it save YOU ALL money and do what everyone moans about frees cops up for real police work.
If you fancy living in a lawless society i understand Zimbabwe and Nicargua has cheap housing. If you want to see the effect of poor social administration and a slack grip allowing lawlessnes have a trip to Belize city , the current murder capital of the Caribbean. They had independence granted or revolution over the past few decades which has allowed rules to be rebuilt.
Even look at Iraq. Common feedback from many iraqis is "at least the water and electric worked with Saddam" you cant pleae all the peole all of the time. Pure democracy is inherently inefficient.
I put it to you, Paul admits his cock up and pays up. The system youre all moaning about also identifies other vehicles in the same situation . They go onto the Police system and are dealt with. A significant drugs haul is seized AND asset seizure after conviction solely as a result of the car being stopped for no tax. It has happened.
Sadly the system doesnt have the capacity to speak to all the pauls to warn them nicely but it does allow legitimate targeting of wrongdoers
Does it work? unless youre a junkie, of course it does. :clap:clap
If thats not a decent result please explain
Deleted account DD
23-12-2010, 20:32
It's a strange truth that comunism as peoposed by Marx & Engles has never realy been tried., just a lennonist interpretation and it doesn't work!
Another strnage truth, real democracy exists no where on earth, the "democracy" we have in britain is a 'legal rational' democracy that also doesn't work.
We have a fairly young system of government - think of how long we lived in a true monarchy by comparison - and toadya we have an odd mix of several systems -it's time for a change!
In order to hasten the rate of the present system loosing it's legitemacy the most effective - non voiolent - approach is to simply abstain from voting.
If voting can change anyhting, it ill only be change withing the current political sytem - what we need is a new one!
So for a real revloution, simply do nothing! don't get involved with the present political set up, either to support it or to try and bring it down - simply ignore it and the next stage of our mutual governance will come along that little bit quicker!
Thats me off my soap box now :thumbs
:thumb2 Ive almost repeated a couple of points, you posted whilst I was composing ;)
Deleted account DD
23-12-2010, 20:37
it is usually people with a vested interest in the status quo who vociferously defend it. If a system is a good one, it doesn't need defending as people can see that it works.
actually i'll change my post here......
please explain the difference between explanation and defence of a system :nenau
actually i'll change my post here......
please explain the difference between explanation and defence of a system :nenau
Dave,you are taking my posts too personally,it is usually the Governments and Police forces etc.who vociferously defend their tactics. Keeps them in a job,you see.
lacroupade
24-12-2010, 11:52
I put it to you, Paul admits his cock up and pays up. The system youre all moaning about also identifies other vehicles in the same situation . They go onto the Police system and are dealt with. A significant drugs haul is seized AND asset seizure after conviction solely as a result of the car being stopped for no tax. It has happened.
Sadly the system doesnt have the capacity to speak to all the pauls to warn them nicely but it does allow legitimate targeting of wrongdoers
Does it work? unless youre a junkie, of course it does. :clap:clap
If thats not a decent result please explain
But theres a massive flaw right there? The fact the drug dealer didn't tax his car, allied to the presence of ANPR, was what got him stopped, not the fact that the naughty boy didn't SORN it??? Just as I'd deem it a fair cop if I drove on the road in the same state. But given that I parked it up in a field why the f*ck should I be required to report to the state that I've done so? Next thing I'll be required to report when I'm taking a dump! LOL
I believe it to be nothing more than another revenue generation/Big Brother scheme frankly and it SUCKS. I cannot see how SORN benefits anyone positively....you always used to be able to 'de-tax' your car or park it offroad untaxed, except now it seems we are required as citizens to formally positively report to the state that we are obeying a particular law....thin edge of the bloody wedge if you ask me!!!
Deleted account DD
24-12-2010, 16:55
Dave,you are taking my posts too personally,
I assure you not the case :thumbsin fact i'm more likely to turn up on your front door step dressed like a banana than take them personally............whats your address ?;)
Deleted account DD
24-12-2010, 17:02
But theres a massive flaw right there? The fact the drug dealer didn't tax his car, allied to the presence of ANPR, was what got him stopped, not the fact that the naughty boy didn't SORN it??? Just as I'd deem it a fair cop if I drove on the road in the same state. But given that I parked it up in a field why the f*ck should I be required to report to the state that I've done so? Next thing I'll be required to report when I'm taking a dump! LOL
A serial very serious offender who had diasapeared from the scene was locked up (after a brief pursuit) when I was involved in anpr because................................
the dozy twat sorn'd his car presumably to avoid paying up and then drove past the team so the machine pinged him up :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
It works all ways. Honestly I have never stopped being amazed at the ingenuity and the stupidity in equal measures, of the human race.
Anyhow its xmas and I can hear a 1/2 price bottle of Tesco fizz calling my name :thumb2
Enough of politics and big brother
Happy xmas one and all :thumbs:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap
I assure you not the case :thumbsin fact i'm more likely to turn up on your front door step dressed like a banana than take them personally............whats your address ?;)
See,typical bloody copper.:lol I haven't committed any offence and you still want to know where I live and threaten to turn up on my doorstep undercover.:doh:doh
(RIP) PLANK
24-12-2010, 18:40
See,typical bloody copper.:lol I haven't committed any offence and you still want to know where I live and threaten to turn up on my doorstep undercover.:doh:doh
but you do have the right to APEEL :clap
Deleted account DD
24-12-2010, 19:18
arrggghhhhhh :doh :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
but you do have the right to APEEL :clap
If he arrives at my door,I'll skin him.:D:D
(RIP) PLANK
24-12-2010, 19:36
If he arrives at my door,I'll skin him.:D:D
you could just SLIP out while he's not looking :augie
lacroupade
25-12-2010, 14:24
A serial very serious offender who had diasapeared from the scene was locked up (after a brief pursuit) when I was involved in anpr because................................
the dozy twat sorn'd his car presumably to avoid paying up and then drove past the team so the machine pinged him up :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
It works all ways. Honestly I have never stopped being amazed at the ingenuity and the stupidity in equal measures, of the human race.
Anyhow its xmas and I can hear a 1/2 price bottle of Tesco fizz calling my name :thumb2
Enough of politics and big brother
Happy xmas one and all :thumbs:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap
But you underlined the flaw in your argument perfectly Dave - thanks:naughty....he would still have got yanked by ANPR cos his car wasn't taxed....all he did by SORNing it was deny himself an excuse like 'I forgot guv'. So my hypothesis that SORN does nothing in terms of aiding crime detection still holds. :bow
Deleted account DD
25-12-2010, 14:49
But you underlined the flaw in your argument perfectly Dave - thanks:naughty....he would still have got yanked by ANPR cos his car wasn't taxed....all he did by SORNing it was deny himself an excuse like 'I forgot guv'. So my hypothesis that SORN does nothing in terms of aiding crime detection still holds. :bow
Not quite, on small canvas yes, but on a bigger picture definitely not.
Let me explain.................4 intercept cars, 10 pings on the system which ones do they go after?
SORN (certainly used to) would take priority over fail to tax because theres a greater potential for further offences such as deception that go into criminality to be disclosed and less chance of error carried over from dvla because of how they do it in house ;) :thumb2 you actually allude to that enhanced level of offence in your own argument, the I forgot or its in the post defence is invalid ;)
Thats how he was caught. Everything to do with the reg on that car was evaluated by someone like me (or I used to ) and given a "rating" put on the system and the one with the higher rating gets grabbed. Its a lawful and proportionate but most of all a practical and effective technique, all outlined in the National Intelligence Model.
Always the chance he could have pinged up with one spare intercept vehicleon site, followed closely by a mass murderer in a car with 50 k of coke using red diesel in which case they would have taken a higher priority and the single available unit would have gone after them instead.
Thats life :nenau
Happy xmas :thumbs
enough of this bollocks, ive got call of duty black ops to have a look at :clap
lacroupade
25-12-2010, 14:56
...pass the twiglets.....:kissy
Deleted account DD
25-12-2010, 14:59
...pass the twiglets.....:kissy
No ta..........would spoil the champers :cool:
We havent eaten yet either, been out with the dawgs who are now crashed out and Im starving
Deleted account DD
25-12-2010, 15:02
Can i also point out im only farting about on line because she's watching Noels Xmas Presents :doh:doh:doh kin hate that man.
lacroupade
25-12-2010, 15:08
Can i also point out im only farting about on line because she's watching Noels Xmas Presents :doh:doh:doh kin hate that man.
I'm more concerned about the fact that you've checked into a romantic little love nest and are watching telly and playing COD! :eek:
I think you'd better adjourn to the bar while I nip round and show her my new Mickey Mouse boxers....:naughty:lol
Deleted account DD
25-12-2010, 21:34
I'm more concerned about the fact that you've checked into a romantic little love nest and are watching telly and playing COD! :eek:
I think you'd better adjourn to the bar while I nip round and show her my new Mickey Mouse boxers....:naughty:lol
:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
No chance, now she may be tempted if they were shrek ones
Not yet, still at home love nest from Monday :naughty:naughty:naughty:naughty
makeitfit
26-12-2010, 03:10
Right oh all:D aving a good time by the look of all this bull:eek:
Late to this thread 'cause I cant read very quickly:lol
I'd just like to say you're all wrong.............:augie
It's just another stealth tax, the default setting now being " get it perfectly right first time " OR you PAY :doh
Also , sort of related, but not having a go Daved, we were stopped coming home from a gig last week by the old bill:doh 2am in Carmarthen:augie
I had a dipped head light bulb out. I'd noticed it when we came off the motorway, but couldn't find an open garage to get a replacement. So foolishly I put on the fog lights (which on the Focus are almost floor level) so I wouldn't be mistaken for a motorbike. Anyway plod pulled me over for "Causing him undue distress" pmsl
There was no evening sir what's going on here then.
Just "Right that's £30 to start with" says the grining twonk:( and so it went on................................................ ...and on................................................ ..and on:confused:
Why not just give me a bollocking and tell me to get it fixed? Oh No lets just fine the twat and score more points and less respect:thumbs
Bloody donkey's going to get some Karma soon, I asked Santa:naughty
Deleted account DD
26-12-2010, 10:02
I would appeal against that ticket.
i dont understand this points and targets thing for so called efficiency...... surely a better level of respect would be gained by actually pointing out to minor criminals the error of their ways rather than think of pound notes and scores .
one example is , i suspect a drug dealer lives very close to me , ive rung crimestoppers a few times and im asked things like " can you see a camera ? " ...... er no i cant say ive really looked is that important ?.....most of the neighbours suspect it too , but time will tell i guess
Deleted account DD
26-12-2010, 10:53
one example is , i suspect a drug dealer lives very close to me , ive rung crimestoppers a few times and im asked things like " can you see a camera ? " ...... er no i cant say ive really looked is that important ?.....most of the neighbours suspect it too , but time will tell i guess
Youre right about time will tell.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey. Its no secret , many drug related prems have reinforced this that and the other in and around the place. Whilst somone is smashing their way in, those insode have time for a bit of damage limitation. Advance warning via cctv is one of their best assets. Need to know if they've got cctv so it can be beaten :thumb2
Deleted account DD
26-12-2010, 10:58
i dont understand this points and targets thing for so called efficiency...... surely a better level of respect would be gained by actually pointing out to minor criminals the error of their ways rather than think of pound notes and scores .
That mentality peaked under the last government.
I recall being told working the town centre i needed to do x number of non endorsable penalty tickets.
I refused.
I pointed out to the boss that I could do a months worth in a morning standing next to some confusing signage we had in the town centre. Id get the ticks but no one on the high street would ever speak to me again.
I wouldnt get any local info, intelligence or gossip and worst of all no cups of tea!!!!!!!!!!!
In fairness to him, he agreed and did something about it :clap
However that was years ago and "flexible". Under the last govt it was formalised and HAD to be done. The nanny legislation they passed meant discretion was all but binned.
Id rather have one burglar in than any number of no seatbelts and bulbs out.
extreme-4x4
26-12-2010, 11:13
my thoughts.... and it reminds me of an argument between my sister and brother, must have happened 30 years ago .
he'd just called her a slapper or something. and she just said its better to play the field than get kicked around it.
its the same for any of these SYSTEMS weather its the banks or dvla or anything
banks - only put in what you need to pay your bills by direct debit. keep the rest in cash. dont borrow bugger all off them , use the service but put nothing in
dvla - play the game do as they want . its a system it can work for you as well as them . it works for me very well
yes i have had my learning proses with the dvla had a few fines etc. but the fact they took the coppers actual people who can stand in front of a judge and say IT WAS HIM is a very useful tool for for messing up someone's life. its just awsome.... most people who have crossed me have fallen fowl of the system
im with daved its not anywhere near a police state. and to be honest if you asked the police . they are just as sick of the government and its stupid arse rules.
the reason our country is in such a poor state is because of systems. everything is mostly online now, its lazy without human intervention or understanding. basicly right or wrong or black or white.
the illegals and criminals use this to there advantage and bleed the system dry with the benefits and rules.
we on the other hand park our cars in the field off the road and dont sorn it. we are too lazy un organaized and mostly not interested.
apart from the occasional moan on a forum about how unfair the uk system is.
my advise dont be part of the system ... play the system use it to get ahead of the game and when they work out the system has failed they will change it.
but not for our benefit...
lacroupade
26-12-2010, 12:06
we on the other hand park our cars in the field off the road and dont sorn it. we are too lazy un organaized and mostly not interested.
apart from the occasional moan on a forum about how unfair the uk system is.
but not for our benefit...
I'm not sure how the hell you 'play' a system that clearly thinks that just obeying the law and parking an untaxed vehicle on private land isn't enough for them - that you are now required to report your every move?
Its the same mentality in my view that had people wearing yellow stars 65 years ago. :( Call that dramatic if you like but our personal freedoms are being continuously eroded bit by bit until we finally disappear up our own arses.
perhaps someone could explain why..... on the road out of brighouse towards bradford ( a main road ) just through bailiff bridge traffic lights on the left , there is a guy who regularly parks up to 6 vehicles at the roadside , im guessing he is a dealer /restorer ..... none of the vehicles are taxed
lacroupade
26-12-2010, 12:16
perhaps someone could explain why..... on the road out of brighouse towards bradford ( a main road ) just through bailiff bridge traffic lights on the left , there is a guy who regularly parks up to 6 vehicles at the roadside , im guessing he is a dealer /restorer ..... none of the vehicles are taxed
and you try reporting him....nobody gives a toss.:doh
and you try reporting him....nobody gives a toss.:doh
that is a public road , not private land as in your case .... surely sorn doesnt apply as they are effectively on road ?
im not sure if this is gonna work , but heres the google maps picture ..... look on the left of the pic , you will see the cars.
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bailiff+Bri dge,+Brighouse&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=12.083905,39.331055&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnea r=Bailiff+Bridge,+Brighouse,+Calderdale,+United+Ki ngdom&ll=53.722368,-1.776903&spn=0,0.002401&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.72430 9,-1.776535&panoid=VPObPnfA8X23J80UuCkKxw&cbp=12,308. 78,,0,5&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bailiff+Bri dge,+Brighouse&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=12.083905,39.331055&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnea r=Bailiff+Bridge,+Brighouse,+Calderdale,+United+Ki ngdom&ll=53.722368,-1.776903&spn=0,0.002401&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.72430 9,-1.776535&panoid=VPObPnfA8X23J80UuCkKxw&cbp=12,308. 78,,0,5" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>
oops didnt work sorry
extreme-4x4
26-12-2010, 12:26
i agree even down to the yellow stars bit. but again its about control much the same as any other society over the thousands of years of society.
control. hitler was not unique in his grip of the people. nor was he any more brutal than any other who has seaked world control, ... basic fact is society wont work unless they get you all under control (even you who parks his car on his own field).
comply or pay up
on a brighter note... i suppose we are lucky they dont put people to death for feeble mindedness any more..... because it was not just the nazi's who did that. the uk and us both did it legally well into the 1960's
but on the other hand this dvla thing could be an intelegance gathering tool to see who is dumb enough to sorn it then drive it. so they know who to steralise :augie
and based on some of what daved says. that might be the way forward in some cases :thumbs
solarman216
26-12-2010, 12:34
im not sure if this is gonna work , but heres the google maps picture ..... look on the left of the pic , you will see the cars.
oops didnt work sorry
yea does work Pete if you click on sat view, Rick
yea does work Pete if you click on sat view, Rick
you can quite clearly see a row of allegros and other stuff parked on the left side of the road , just past a school , and after wyke end lane
lacroupade
26-12-2010, 16:53
you can quite clearly see a row of allegros and other stuff parked on the left side of the road , just past a school , and after wyke end lane
well if he has a row of Allegros he needs sectioning not prosecuting LMAO!:lol:lol
Deleted account DD
26-12-2010, 17:16
well if he has a row of Allegros he needs sectioning not prosecuting LMAO!:lol:lol
:thumb2
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